In The Science Lab At Southern Cross University

[00:00] In the beginning — Gold Coast Marathon series, Courtney. We're three and a half weeks out from the Gold Coast Marathon: the half marathon, the 10K, the 5K, everything. We couldn't be more excited. Quick reminder from last week's episode with Benita Willis — this weekend should be your final one for a hard hit-out. We don't want any hard runs in that last three weeks leading into the Gold Coast Marathon, so if you've got one planned, make sure it happens this weekend. But Courtney, we're on the road today.

[00:32] We are, and I feel like I'm in my element, mate. I walked in here — we're at Southern Cross University, at the exercise science building — and this is heaven. I feel like I'm an athlete again. I did see a little spring in your step when we walked in — we're at the Southern Cross University campus right next to the airport. We've walked into the labs, and not only did you get a spring in your step, you also bumped into someone who used to manage your sports science back in the day. I think Sean was maybe my first-ever sports scientist.

[01:02] How about that — twenty-five years later and here we are. We might have to drag Sean onto the pod a bit later. But today we've got the boss — we've got the big dog. We're joined by Dr Luke Delvecchio. Luke, how are you? Fantastic. Can we call you Luke, or — that's absolutely fine with me, mate, keep it easy — Luke. So, explain what your role is here at Southern Cross Uni. Yeah, thanks. So I'm in the clinical exercise physiology programme, but I also teach into the exercise and

[01:34] sports science programme, so I'm a senior lecturer. My background and interests are in strength and conditioning — by way of example, I did my PhD with masters athletes. These were a group of cyclists who wouldn't do weights. For a long time we've known that cyclists love getting on the bike and doing lots of endurance training, but they're not so good at getting into the gym and doing weights to keep their muscles and joints strong. So my research focused on what happens when you take these guys off the bike for a short period of time,

[02:04] and put them in the gym — what changes, what doesn't. And what we learned was that a small amount of weight training improves endurance performance. So you literally did your PhD on skipping leg day? Well, these are the guys who look great in Lycra, and I kept telling them they'd look even better in Lycra if they did weights — get those quads burning. Before we unpack what you can offer people about to run the marathon, the half, whatever it might be — do you run? I do. And here's the story, and I'll be completely honest, because this is part of why I ended up teaching. In my early career

[02:35] I used to run corporate groups in Sydney — that was when I was a personal trainer, and I'd train them to run City2Surf and do the race with them. But inevitably I'd always lose — I'd end up being the last bloke to finish. I'd take these guys from couch to 10K, couch to 15K, true story, and by the time we got to race day, having trained them up, they'd end up beating me. That moment — I thought, this can't continue, my ego can't take it — so I pretty much gave up personal training and became a full-time student. Went into exercise science.

[03:06] That's so interesting. I don't want to go off and start promoting another race that's happening in August this year, but — as we go around some of this equipment a bit later — I am fascinated to know about Heartbreak Hill in the City2Surf, and how you helped train people leading into that. Well, it's very similar training to the Gold Coast — you're looking at a similar kind of conditioning to run that distance on that course as you'd need for the half marathon here.

[03:37] But it's a 10K, right, the Southern Cross University 10K this year — are you running any of the events? No, I'm not. I've got a bit of trauma I'm still carrying, if I'm honest — my ego, remember. I trained these guys up, and at the start they could barely run. I used to love that, because I'd be shouting encouragement as we went for runs. Then bit by bit they got faster, to the point where they'd be beating me in the race. There's one man who stands out — Lindsay Kevis. If you're ever listening to this, Lindsay Kevis was my arch-

[04:07] enemy — because he didn't just beat me at City2Surf, he'd beat me at every other fun run we did too. I love this. When was the last time you ran against Lindsay? That would have been just before I left Sydney, in 2015. So ten years on and you're still holding onto it? I wonder if Lindsay's out there somewhere, maybe on the Gold Coast — watch out, I might be getting on a plane down here to find you. So, we're here in the exercise lab, surrounded by all this amazing stuff, with the

[04:38] running boom we've seen happen over the last three or four years — how exciting has it been to be working somewhere like Southern Cross Uni, given the boom we've seen in running from the elite level right down to participation? Yeah, absolutely. It's a fantastic time to be in exercise science, because what we get to do is support people with their goals, and we do that through research — always wanting to learn more, to understand more about human performance, through the research we do into human performance testing

[05:09] athletes — but probably more importantly, it's about training the next generation of exercise and sports scientists, and exercise physiologists, to go out into the community and be the person people come to for help. It's really interesting, because — take Eliud Kipchoge: we've just seen that magical two-hour barrier broken in the marathon, something a lot of people thought could never be achieved. And the chat in that world now is that, well, it's been broken once, a bit like the four-minute mile.

[05:39] Now it's a matter of how often we see it done in races. From a sports science perspective, it must be fascinating to see these evolutions — the shoes people are wearing now, all the recovery techniques coming in — and what that's doing not just for elite-level performance, but for the ability of more people to complete these sort of runs. A hundred percent, I think we're getting smarter — the old adage is don't train harder, train smarter. We're catching on very quickly about how to turn these half-percenters, one-percenters, into real gains.

[06:09] And I think that's why we're seeing these records broken — why we're seeing these performance thresholds keep moving forward. We'll walk around the lab a little later and look at some of the equipment that makes a difference, but quickly — sorry Courtney — is that behind you, Dr Luke, an isokinetic dynamometer? Wow, spot on — thought I recognised it. Very sophisticated tool that measures strength, and helps us better understand how the nervous system interacts with the muscular system, how people produce force. If you've had an ACL injury,

[06:40] perhaps it might be of use here. Indeed — it's used in rehab to set thresholds and to understand the cause and effect of injury. I didn't need it explained to me, I just thought it looked like it was getting ready to go to the moon — looks like a bloody astronaut suit. Some serious equipment over there. Now, what I want to frame up today is: what could I learn from being in the lab that Strava can't teach me? Because in today's world there's so much technology out there. But I've spent my life literally in these labs, running

[07:12] the numbers, running the data to get the results. We'd love to, one, have a look at the equipment a bit later and show what it does — but two, what extra thing can elite athletes, or athletes with access to a lab, actually get out of it? I think the take-home is certainty. At the top end, where we're using this sort of equipment — what we call gold-standard equipment — it gives you great certainty in the number you're trying to get, whether that's your VO2 max, which is basically the ceiling of your aerobic performance, and tells

[07:44] you exactly what sort of engine capacity you have. To get that number — that VO2 max number — you obviously need the right equipment, calibrated equipment, equipment that gives you certainty that the number is exact. So ultimately that's what all this equipment, and being in a laboratory environment, is about — certainty in the numbers. Yes, you can get numbers from wearables now, and they're getting better — trust me, the arms race is on — but it's the certainty in that number. Is it really telling me what I

[08:14] need to know, and can I trust the reliability of that number? Well, that's the question. We just saw Google release a new Fitbit, I believe, and then there's Whoop and everything else. Is there a difference between the certainty of the data you're getting out of those and what you get here in the lab? Yeah, absolutely — let's use an easy example. We can get a heart rate measurement from these wearable devices — I'm wearing a Samsung Watch,

[08:44] Apple Watch — either would give you a heart rate reading. Most people are aware of that, but what they don't tell you is that once you start moving, the reliability of that heart rate reading drops off pretty quickly. Once your arms start swinging backwards and forwards, that reliability falls away fast. Whereas if you're wearing a chest strap, because it's not subject to that movement artefact, you get much more reliable numbers than from a wrist-worn device. So the wearable's great when you're still, or if you're

[09:15] just walking, but once you go from a walk to a run, and from a run to a sprint, the certainty in that number gets a lot lower — you're less certain the number's really telling you your actual heart rate. Interesting, because for anybody who heard last week's episode with Benita, we were talking about running in packs, and Benita made the comment about watch accuracy in that pack environment — it also becomes less accurate from a timing perspective. A lot of people's training is based around

[09:46] whatever the watch or wearable is telling them. I guess the other big number people tend to talk about, the more they get into this training stuff, is Zone 2. Oh yes — I'm really glad that came up. I think we've hit a nerve here. It's trending, and it's a conversation I'm having with students all the time — fending off the wrong understanding of the whole concept of Zone 2. This is good, alright.

[10:16] People forget. Over to you, Luke. So in short, we should be clear there's nothing magical about Zone 2. Iñigo San Millán is the prominent researcher who's done most of the work on Zone 2, and probably the most vocal proponent of Zone 2 training — if you don't know who Iñigo San Millán is, follow him on Instagram, follow him on the socials. Does he run with his shirt off? Does he train individuals? I'm gonna jump in

[10:47] here, because I've got a little story. Oh, here we go. One of the biggest regrets in my career — I was in Boulder, Colorado, training with the Australian triathlon team at the time. The guy looking after the team sent me in to see Iñigo, in his lab in Boulder, very similar to this one. And at the time he was working with some of the Tour de France riders. I probably had the opportunity, if I'd been a little more proactive,

[11:18] to work with the great man. And now, watching everyone talk about Zone 2 — this is the guy, this is the guy — that's the one I missed. Could've been the gold medal that wasn't there. But it shows the level of it, really — I think it's a perfect example, and we'll let you explain it properly in a second, Luke — of where this podcast sits in the running space, and where different people are at. I'd never heard of this bloke, and I've heard so many people tell me about the importance of

[11:49] Zone 2, but never heard of Iñigo. There'll be people listening to this who love their running, who probably preach about Zone 2, and who've also never heard of this guy. So, over to you — back to the importance, or unimportance, of Zone 2. It's the same concept we might use in nutrition, where we say you don't eat from one food basket only — you go to the market and make sure you pick a bit from every food group, a bit of carbohydrate, a bit

[12:19] from meats and proteins and nuts and veggies. With training, Zone 2 is the same approach — it shouldn't be the only training you do, and it was never intended to be your whole training regime. It's one part of it — it's the 80/20 rule. What is Zone 2 doing? It's training the muscle cell, and specifically the part of the muscle cell that generates energy, called the mitochondria. This is the next big trending topic — everyone's talking about mitochondrial dysfunction, metabolic flexibility.

[12:49] Mitochondrial dysfunction is a hallmark of ageing. So what Zone 2 does is train the mitochondria — and in that zone you're predominantly using fat as a fuel, because the intensity is lower. Fat's a slow burner. You can train the body to get better at burning fat at higher intensities too, but generally, according to San Millán's theory, the best zone for training the body to use fat as a fuel and stimulate the mitochondria is Zone 2.

[13:19] That means your muscle cells are more effective and efficient at producing energy, because that's where we produce aerobic energy — in the mitochondria, in the muscle cell. Now, when people talk Zone 2, for the average runner the understanding is that it's conversation pace. Does that hold up? Absolutely — that's actually probably a better guide than heart rate, and heart rate isn't the most reliable way to know you're actually in Zone 2.

[13:50] So conversation pace as a measure of Zone 2 does hold up. Because the other thing I've seen, in my limited understanding of this whole Zone 2 phenomenon, is a lot of people saying it's all well and good to say you're running in Zone 2 based on heart rate, but if you haven't done the testing to establish your zones, it's pointless. Which circles back to your first question — why come to a lab, why use a lab over Strava? To get Zone 2 accurately, you need the right sort of testing. What sort of testing is that? A combination of profiling your

[14:22] lactate response to different incremental workloads, alongside profiling the fuels you're using. So when you're running on a treadmill wearing that respirator covering your nose and mouth, capturing the concentration of oxygen and carbon dioxide in your breath, that tells us what fuel you're using. We do that test to identify where your Zone 2 is, then map that back to your heart rate and lactate levels. Do you know what your Zone 2 is, Courtney? We'd say Zone 2 is right below LT1.

[14:55] Yes, correct. So for the In The Beginning family listening — now we're getting into the science side. Remember, was it Lucy who asked me a couple of weeks back why I was doing everything at 140? I don't love using the term Zone 2 for the same reasons, but effectively I was saying I needed to condition myself in that zone before moving on to the next levels. That's why I was running under 140 — I was going off a similar kind of perceived effort

[15:28] or breathability, more than knowing my lab data at the moment. But from previous lactate testing and knowing where it sits, I can gauge it — for me, Zone 2 is under 140, and once I move up in heart rate I start moving into higher-lactate levels. Just off the cuff, is that an impressive Zone 2? I think it's very impressive. Just wanted to check. And of course that's trainable — over time you want to see that shift to the right, progressively becoming 145, then 150. So over time you shift that

[16:01] so you can work at a higher pace while still using fat as your main fuel source, still stimulating the mitochondria to a maximum level. It's not static — it should change over time, which is why you need regular testing, because if you don't retest and shift those boundaries, that Zone 2 training — that's exactly it. I've spent years in gyms guessing, essentially. But if I came in here — we'll look at some of the equipment and the respiratory stuff later — if

[16:32] we were doing lactate testing, we'd nail that number down, and you might tell me, I don't know, in three or four weeks, 'okay, gauge off this heart rate now.' Or even better — and I don't know how often you'll have heard of these — portable lactate monitors. You could go one step further, out on the track, with wearable lactate sensors in the pipeline. Just like continuous glucose monitors, there's a continuous lactate monitor in production that goes on the back of your arm, like an armband,

[17:03] and it identifies lactate in the interstitial fluid, just like we can identify blood glucose in tissue fluid. So you'd be out running with your armband telling you your lactate, without the invasive finger-prick testing. Do you know which brand that is? It's all still in beta-testing mode at the moment, but it's definitely in the pipeline. Dr Luke, we have a thing on the podcast called Liam Scams, where my half-assed brain thinks through ideas and puts them out into the ether.

[17:33] Some have already been stolen by the London Marathon and other events. It's rare that our man Courtney goes off half-cocked on anything — I reckon about six to eight months ago you predicted the next development in the running world would be portable lactate monitors. This is a wearable, Courtney. And again, this is the difference — if something I'd predicted had actually come to fruition, I'd be doing cartwheels.

[18:04] And he just leans back in his chair — this is exactly what you thought would be the next development. It was the only logical one, but that's great, I hadn't heard it come true yet. We really need to find a way to make some money off these ideas we put out. I'm pretty sure there were a lot of smart scientists before me thinking about it. Really what we're seeing is a leveraging of PPG technology — the little light on the back of your watch. If you look at your smartwatch, there's a little light — that's your photoplethysmography

[18:34] light. It shines into the skin and reflects back, and the reflection wavelength tells the watch the physiological measure. We know, for example, that there are camera-based apps using that same technology — shining a light into your face and reading back your blood pressure, your diabetes risk, whether your cholesterol's high. Some researchers were piloting this technology when COVID broke out and everyone was locked down — piloting it, sharpening it, and

[19:04] getting more and more accurate. So if we can pick up these vital-sign measures from that tech, there's no reason we can't extend it into performance markers like lactate. This is amazing for me, Courtney — you've obviously lived in labs like this one at Southern Cross University, but this is the first time anyone's told me, Dr Luke, that this little light on the back of my watch is doing anything — I just thought it meant the watch was on. I had no idea it was shooting

[19:35] light into my skin and bringing data back. Exactly — and that's how it picks up your blood flow, your heart rate, even your heart rate variability, which is the difference between beats. It's getting smarter and better at picking up more of our physiological signals. I think that tool will be to running what the power meter was to cycling. Does that sound about right to you? Yeah, I'm a believer — I absolutely understand the importance of using zones for running based on lactate, which

[20:08] is extremely problematic when you have to stop mid-run and prick a finger — it's just not practical. How much do the brands creating this tech come to places like this to use your expertise and technology? Do they work with you? You'll find product developers absolutely want to engage with universities, and if it's sports-science-related, they want to engage with sports science researchers to get

[20:40] that preliminary data, to make sure their technology's reliable, valid, and ticking the boxes for quality assurance. As an example, I recently worked with a Danish company that's developed a wearable vibration sensor that can tell you your VO2 max within one minute — you just lie down and put the device on your chest. So what this device can do is work off the vibrations

[21:10] of the heart — you lie still for a minute and get a VO2 max score. That's the scale of technology we're talking about. Obviously, in a lab like this, to get that gold-standard number, I have to run, sweat, go to fatigue, breathe into this uncomfortable mask — there are a lot of friction points in that process. But that's where the technology's heading. I saw that company on the internet, approached them and said I was really interested in what this could do, and they said, 'we'll send you one, test it out in the lab.'

[21:41] And that's what I did — I compared it to VO2 max scores from middle-aged and older people. That project highlights the engagement between researchers, industry and technology development. I think Australia, from an intellectual property perspective, bats above its weight — similar to how we do on the sporting field. We've always taken pride in that. Where's exercise science at here in Australia? How do you see

[22:11] the field? You're at the pointy end of it here at Southern Cross University, and in Australia more broadly — what's it like? What are the students like coming through, what's the interest in the field like? The passion's there. Students come through and get to use this amazing lab, learn how to use all the equipment, see how it applies right from the weekend warrior to the elite athlete. If your science is good enough for the elite athlete, there's no reason we can't scale it back to Mr and Mrs Jones, the weekend-warrior type. And that's what excites them the

[22:42] most — that they can apply that learning to any population, any group. And sure, we do kick above our weight, not just in sport, but in the support behind the sport too — the tech, the sports scientists. We're well regarded in the field for our expertise. On that scaling down to the average runner — one thing Courtney and I found doing this Gold Coast Marathon series last year was how valuable

[23:12] an actual human coach can be. We had Benita Willis, of Lace Up Running, take Bronte on the journey of her first-ever marathon last year. Up until that point Bronte was basically following a computer-generated marathon plan. Then she got in with Benita and Lace Up Running, and had an amazing time — an amazing experience through the whole training block. What's your opinion on the AI-coach world that a lot of runners are using now?

[23:45] Yeah, I hear you, and that's another trending topic. I've been reviewing papers where researchers put an exercise programme into an AI bot, get it to spit one out, and actually run that programme to see how effective it is. What we're seeing from this emerging research is, yes, it can spit out a programme, but it absolutely lacks the human factor. Modifications to a programme need that human-to-human interaction — an athlete wakes up and says 'I'm feeling a bit off today,' and that conversation with a coach can mean the coach will

[24:15] make subtle adjustments on the fly. Yes, you can chat to an AI bot the way you'd chat to me, but there's some nuance in that human-to-human interaction that's currently lacking. What a coach can do is pick up not just on the data — maybe your heart rate variability's low, your resting heart rate's high — but on the emotional side of the athlete, which is equally important for performance. We need that human coach who can identify when you're

[24:46] flat, because maybe there's something else going on affecting your performance, you're not recovering as well. So, yeah, we're not quite ready to throw the coach out and make them obsolete. What about AI in here, though — has it accelerated the data, what you're able to do? Is it being used in exercise science? To a degree, yeah, absolutely — it supports, in a role of support. The relationship changes: AI becomes the writer, and the human becomes the editor. It's the same in exercise

[25:17] science — it can help me process testing information, tell me what that data is showing, but I've got to check it to make sure it's telling me what I'm actually looking for. Really it's an assistant, but it hasn't replaced the decision-making process, the critical thinking of 'okay, it's telling me this, but I also know the athlete isn't sleeping well, or they've got financial stress' — there are so many moving parts to human performance that it just can't replace that. It comes back to that human factor. It helps our decision

[25:49] making, but doesn't replace it. I love that — I love what you just said, that AI is the writer and the human still needs to be there as the editor, because it doesn't always spit out the right information. It still makes mistakes. Sometimes it'll give you a list of exercises, but I know, for example, that you hate squats — it doesn't know that. So it'll give you a programme full of squats, but you hate squats. If it's left purely to the AI bot, you'll do that programme once and never again. But the human goes,

[26:19] 'Actually, I know he loves leg presses — leg presses hit the same muscle groups, he likes leg presses, doesn't like squats.' That's the decision-making of the coach, and I don't think you ever replace that. No matter how much you engage with whatever form of AI, it's never going to have the ability to sit down like we're doing with you today, Luke, and build that relationship, have that conversation. It's always a relationship with the coach —

[26:50] they get it, they learn, and over time you start to identify cues in an athlete. I've never coached to that extent myself, but I remember coaches always saying they're looking for how you walk in, how you hold your head, how you're talking — all those external cues a computer can't see, because it can only see the hard data. Well, we noticed — as we joked at the start — you walked into this lab and bumped into Sean, one of your first-ever sports scientists.

[27:20] I asked Sean for some dirt on you, and he said no — Courtney was one of the most put-together athletes ever, with very impressive numbers too. So don't worry, I'll ask Sean for more later. Dr Luke, thank you so much for letting us into the lab here at Southern Cross University — we appreciate not just the access but the expertise. It's something most runners will never consider on their running journey. With everything out there, everything we're learning, most runners will never set foot in a place like this. But I think it's important for

[27:50] everybody getting ready for the marathon, the half, the Southern Cross Uni 10K, whatever it is, to remember that the work you and your team and your students are doing here is what's helping move this running bubble forward — with all the developments we're seeing in products, in wearable tech, all that data. And a reminder that if people are chasing certainty around numbers, this is where you can get it. Absolutely, well said. It's been great having you guys here — and my final word is: look out for exercise physiologists, because that's who we're training.

[28:21] Accredited exercise scientists or accredited exercise physiologists can really help anyone with their running goals — they're the professionals to seek out for clear, consistent, accurate advice. I love that. Just quickly before we finish up — Luke, Courtney's noticed the clock up there doesn't seem to be working, which isn't the most encouraging sign in a lab that's all about numbers and data. That actually has a reason for

[28:52] being that way — if we're putting you on a treadmill test where the goal is to run as long as possible, we strategically set that clock to not work properly, so you keep thinking 'I'm not getting anywhere.' It helps us assess your motivation — makes sure you're truly motivated, because if the clock's not moving and you keep running, I know I've got an athlete who's ready to go above and beyond. Well, thanks Luke, for letting me relive a bit of my old life — has-been walking down memory lane. It has been, and you're a wealth of knowledge.

[29:23] It's been a pleasure, we appreciate it. For anybody out there curious to find out more, or interested in getting that certainty from a lab, scu.edu.au/study has all the information about what Southern Cross University has to offer — not just the lab, but courses in the exercise science area. Go check it out. There's an open day at the Gold Coast Airport campus on the 23rd of August. And most importantly, Courtney, for anybody training up for the Southern Cross Uni 10

[29:53] kilometre race on Gold Coast Marathon weekend — or the half, the full, even the five — the Southern Cross University Recovery Hub will be set up at the finish line. They'll have naturopaths, osteopaths, all these students learning how to do this, there to help you recover from whatever race you've run. Sounds like the place to be when you finish. Alright, thank you again, Dr Luke, and thank you to the team here at Southern Cross University for having us. Courtney, this has really taken me back to my uni days being here — I've really enjoyed it, it's been great.

[30:23] Let's go find the uni bar, alright?