GOLD COAST MARATHON SERIES - MIND, BODY, MARATHON - SOUTHERN CROSS UNIVERSITY EXPERTS

[00:00] In the Beginning Podcast runs the Gold Coast Marathon. We're drawing ever closer, Courtney, and we continue to get amazing people to join us ahead of this year's race. I'm excited today because, thanks to the wonderful people at Southern Cross University, we're hitting on not only the physical but the mental — not just the body, but the mind and headspace that a lot of these runners will be getting into as we get closer to the Gold Coast Marathon. Let's start with the body, the

[00:31] physical side. We're joined by Dr Gabe Fernandez, a senior physiotherapist with a background in sports injuries and a lecturer in physiotherapy at Southern Cross Uni. Gabe, how are you? Yeah, good, thanks for having me. So you're going to be talking body — just so everyone's clear. But the other thing we haven't really touched on much in the lead-up to the marathon is the headspace a lot of people will be in as they embark on what might be their first ever marathon, or a time challenge. We're also joined by Dr Melanie

[01:02] Clark, a postdoctoral research fellow at Southern Cross University working on the Open to Move project. Mel, how are you? Yeah, I'm good. Do I have to call you both doctor every time? Gabe and Mel is fine. It's great to have you both here, this is very exciting — proper experts joining us. We've been called out a bit before, Liam has an opinion every so often. Working in radio, I feel entitled to have opinions on everything, and I might have dipped a toe into the medical

[01:34] space on a previous episode and got quickly shut down. So it's really nice to have you both here — I've got no reason to pretend to be an expert on anything today, so thank you both for joining us. Quickly, to start — Southern Cross is one of the longest-term partners the marathon has, Mel. Why is it important for the uni to be involved, not just this year but for so long? We've been involved with the 10K for eighteen years now, so definitely a while.

[02:05] I think it's just a natural fit for the university to sponsor and be part of the Gold Coast Marathon event. At the Gold Coast campus there's a massive focus on health — osteopathy, exercise science, nursing and midwifery, physiotherapy coming next year — a huge focus on that health component. Being able to partner and be embedded in the community, getting out there and being part of the marathon event itself, it's just a

[02:35] natural fit, and has been for a long time — eighteen years now. And with physio coming as a course next year — as a senior physio yourself, that must be exciting? It's pretty exciting, yeah. I remember doing my PhD, driving past Southern Cross and thinking, we need physio here, I want to get a job there — and it's finally happening. The campus is great, it's out at Kirra, and the

[03:06] facilities are pretty good, and I think everyone involved is really excited to have it available next year. Courtney, I haven't told you this, but I've been dealing with some injuries in the lead-up to this marathon — some calf and Achilles issues, Gabe, which I want to talk to you about shortly. But I was having some physio the other day, and as Liam and Britt were working on my calves and talking through the massage and all the rest, I actually thought — I wonder if I should do a course.

[03:36] Learn a bit more about this from a technical perspective. And I've no doubt right now, in the lead-up to this marathon, over however many weeks are left, there are people going through this process who've had it spark an interest in them — maybe not physio specifically, but something else, maybe they're ready to pivot careers or do something on the side. With running trending the way it is at the moment, I'm sure you're seeing that not

[04:08] just marathons selling out, but universities getting more people wanting to be involved in health-related courses. What have you got — physiotherapy obviously, psychology, all these things around sport. Exercise science, exercise physiology, psychology, osteopathy, physiotherapy — there's a lot of programmes on offer at Southern Cross. I think there's a cultural shift toward health generally — over the past decade it's become cool,

[04:39] become popular, and more people want to study and be part of the field. Having something like the Gold Coast campus, where you can train for events and actually live the lifestyle while you're learning about it, is super important. Can you talk to us about the Open to Move programme, run out of Southern Cross University — what's it involve?

[05:09] Open to Move is a research programme trying to promote physical activity across Australia by offering a free twelve-month programme using goal-setting. A lot of the time people feel overwhelmed, thinking physical activity has to mean a marathon, and it doesn't — it can just be getting out the door for a walk or a jog. We're targeting remote and regional areas in particular, helping with goal-setting and physical activity to get people moving. Then hopefully, through that process, they can build up to that bit

[05:40] more, whether that's a run or just a daily walk. Still recruiting for that project, but yeah, that's my primary focus — getting people moving daily. I've just picked up an accent on both of you, by the way — not Australian. Gabe, we'll get to you in a moment, but Mel, where are you from originally? The United States. How long have you been in Australia? Eight years now. What's the attitude toward

[06:10] health and lifestyle like there compared with Australia? It probably depends where you are in both countries, but I think it's becoming more popular everywhere. Especially living on the coast here — around Coolangatta, people are just out walking, out running. Growing up in a more regional town in the US, nobody was walking on the side of the road. So it's really cool to see that culture you get in these

[06:43] coastal towns in Australia — I absolutely love it. Almost makes it a good place to study. Well, I think that's also part of the reason — great place to study. We're jumping around run clubs and marathons and everything — we're seeing so many run clubs on the Gold Coast, it's such an easy place to come and get involved. But what about regional towns — how do you motivate people outside those really active zones to have that same experience?

[07:16] Regional towns definitely see higher rates of physical inactivity, so it's often more through things like a local sports club. Parkrun's a really interesting initiative across Australia — a lot of regional towns will have a parkrun. Southern Cross's Open to Move being an online programme also helps, because not every town has a gym, a track, or a pool.

[07:46] So having online access to research programmes and things like that is really good too — parkrun, regional pools where they exist, and online programmes, having that balance. Great reason to come to the Gold Coast too, right? Absolutely. Let's start using and abusing the expertise we've got here. Mel, at this stage of marathon prep, people will have gone through some physical difficulties — which Gabe, yes,

[08:16] I'll be stealing some of your expertise shortly — but from a headspace, motivation perspective, what are some of the pitfalls people fall into? And do you have any easy tricks or simple things people can do to maintain motivation at this stage of a marathon build-up? Training for a marathon takes a long time, especially if you want to do it well. I think it's really easy to get

[08:47] overwhelmed when life happens too — people have work, family commitments, and fitting exercise on top of that can feel daunting. Fitting a run into the morning, evening, or lunch break helps. Making it social — going out with friends or family for a jog, even if someone's riding alongside on a bike — helps with motivation too, because you're not feeling as isolated. And then just being gentle and kind to yourself is really important.

[09:19] It's about consistency over time — you shouldn't feel bad about missing one session, especially if it's better for your mental health to miss it. If you're consistent over time, showing up week after week, you'll get to race day fine. So being kind to yourself matters too. On that — do you have any strategies for when you're injured, like Liam and myself at the moment, when you really get down about it?

[09:49] Yeah, it's really easy to feel down — I had a run of injuries last year and got quite frustrated with myself. Cross-training is a good one — if you can't run, get in the pool, get on a bike, still develop cardiovascular fitness, and you'll feel better mentally because you're making progress toward the goal without doing more damage running. That's one of the

[10:20] key things you can do if injured. Also building up the mental game — taking the time to study the race course, which you might not have time for while training and working, or thinking through your fuelling and nutrition. Keeping the mind busy on tactics you'll use on race day, while you're injured, is also useful — there's

[10:50] other strategies beyond just the run itself to think about. It's interesting, because to deviate for a moment — Courtney, you and I have talked a lot on the pod about the boom in running, and the nature of some of the run-influencer space, where the message of being kind to yourself isn't

[11:21] the dominant one in a lot of run clubs or run-influencer content. The dominant message is keep pushing, keep pushing. And hearing an expert like yourself promote being kind to yourself — I think we've seen that a lot in how Benita's been coaching this series with Lace Up Running, where it's, no, we want you to actually get to the start line able to run it, not just push through — she manages people week to week, day to day.

[11:51] Whereas within running culture in Australia at the moment, and I expect it to shift a bit, the messaging is push harder, push harder. I don't know when we get over that hump, but it feels important that people know: yes, push yourself, but also be kind to yourself.

[12:21] It is important to push yourself, but that balance matters. I was reading a quote from a high-performance coach in Germany, who basically said a good athlete is a healthy athlete — and part of that is the body, part is the mind. If you push yourself and just become stressed, you'll burn out — the mental side impacts you physiologically too. Being kind to yourself isn't a bad thing in training. If you're disciplined, showing up, you don't have to nail every single session —

[12:52] if maybe a third of your sessions feel really good, a third feel average, and a third feel rough or bad, that's fine, that's the reality of training. Not every session should feel good. It's okay to have bad sessions — try to be like a goldfish, approach each new session with an open mind, and don't carry over how rough the last one felt.

[13:22] Your next session might feel great, might feel mediocre, and that's okay. That's cool — you've got the theory from your research at the university, but you've also got a strong background yourself in Ironman, triathlon, marathons. How much does the practical side of doing it yourself feed into the theory, or vice versa? Practically — do as I say, not as I do,

[13:53] honestly, a lot. And has doing long-course triathlon yourself changed your mind on any of the theory? Yeah, it's a really interesting question. Probably what I apply most from our work is around goal-setting. It's similar to what we were just saying — a lot of people think they have to be really tough, grind it out. We hear that with goal-setting too — you have to set a specific goal, your target should be

[14:23] to win the age group, or hit a specific time. And a lot of the time that can actually hurt your motivation — if you get an injury and don't think you'll hit that time, you're less motivated to train, or you can't control race-day conditions, it's 40 degrees, and someone else copes better in heat. Having very specific, outcome-based goals can be detrimental. So one of the big things we focus on and

[14:55] research is the opposite — having a non-specific, open goal. In the context of physical activity, that might be, see how many steps I can take today; for a run, see how fast I can run this 10K, with the understanding you're not going to just go out and sprint. Taking that pressure off. In my own racing, I don't think I've ever had a single race go exactly to plan —

[15:25] something almost always goes wrong. In triathlon I've dropped my chain, had a power meter break, overheated on the run — something always goes wrong. Having non-specific goals, and goals focused more on process — my hydration and fuelling strategy, or if something breaks on the bike, focusing on putting pressure through the pedals, or on the run, maintaining a nice,

[15:55] easy breathing pace — those kinds of goals let you walk away from every event feeling proud of yourself. People always ask how fast you ran, but for each individual, at the end of the day, it's less about the time and more about whether you walk away feeling proud of yourself. If you can do that, you know

[16:26] you're doing something right — that's the mindset we're trying to unpack with our research. It's interesting, because what Mel just described is something I now try to do — when I ask people about a race, I try hard not to ask about their time unless they volunteer it, because I'm conscious now, being invested in running and the boom of it — I ask, how was the race,

[16:57] and if they don't mention time, I don't ask about it, because that's their experience to share — how it felt, how it went, how they pulled up the next day. If they don't mention the time, I leave it alone. On the wider goal-setting point — what happens when I drop my chain in a triathlon, or in the Gold Coast Marathon my nutrition falls out of my pocket and I don't realise? Is there a

[17:29] strategy for that moment? Panic — I mean, blind panic. Is there something you've learned, or even a cue — we talk a lot about running cues for technique, but is there a cue for that? For starters, typically when that happens you feel pretty bad, and I acknowledge that feeling — it's okay to feel it. But also knowing it doesn't define me, it's how I respond that defines me. So if you drop the chain, or something happens

[18:01] with your fuelling on the run, it's about how you respond and make the most of it. In an Ironman, if you have a bad bike leg, you get to go out on the run and show up with a positive attitude. If things aren't going well on the run, you stop at an aid station and reset — maybe an affirmation or mantra you use, maybe reframing the goal. If you had a specific pace target — say five-minute

[18:33] kays — and you've lost your nutrition and started bonking, feeling really low on carbs, it's about stopping at that aid station, resetting, and thinking: even if I can't hit that five-minute pace, what do I want to do — I just want to get to the next aid station, and the next one. Being able to reset like that is really healthy, and accepting that, yeah, I feel bad, that's okay, is really important to

[19:03] do. Is that something you should process and visualise before the event? I don't want anything to go wrong, but if it happens in the race and I haven't thought about it beforehand, I'll just wing it — is that something I should be conscious of ahead of time, having a strategy, an ABC plan?

[19:35] The more you can plan and prepare, even though you can't plan for everything, the better you'll respond when things do happen. It might not be relying purely on aid stations — maybe wearing a vest if you struggle with overheating or hydration. What I do, with the coach I work with in triathlon, is write down goals — some outcome-based, but a lot process-based, as well as open goals.

[20:05] Writing those down ahead of time and having them in mind really helps. And also having people to talk to on course — if you know you'll see someone supporting you at, say, kilometre 20, having those little check-ins where you can say, I dropped my chain, or I've lost ten gels, and talk it through — having that support is really useful too. I like that, and it goes hand in hand with what we talked about earlier in the series about how to approach a marathon

[20:38] mentally — what Michael Shelley said, that the first 32K is like sightseeing, and you should be able to take in your surroundings, and then with 10K to go it's, okay, now's go time, dive into it. I think that connects with what you're saying — if you're relaxed enough in that first 32K, you can process things calmly; if you're already stressed, that's when problems double down. Are you running

[21:08] anything this year as part of the marathon weekend? Hopefully the half marathon — I've got an Ironman before that, so if I can recover and be in good form, then yeah. I'm not going to ask about times. Don't let her off though — no, no. Mel, if you'd like to offer up a target time, otherwise we'll move on. The other thing happening

[21:38] across the marathon weekend is that Southern Cross University will be offering the Recovery Hub — Gabe, will you be out there? I think this year they'll have osteopathy students doing massage, helping out fans of the race. Will you be running any of it? Haven't practised enough, haven't prepared — with the PhD finishing and starting a postdoc, plus clinic work part-time while doing the PhD full-time, so a

[22:11] lot of excuses, but yeah, hopefully next year. Well, look, Mel's beautifully explained some of the strategies for getting your head in the right space at this stage of marathon prep. When people listening to this, like me, have overcome some calf and Achilles injuries, or are dealing with them right now — why is that the most common injury people encounter at

[22:44] this stage of a marathon build, or training for a 10K or half — why is that part of the body just so problematic? It's not that it's badly built — it's actually one of the strongest tendons in the body, which is why it's so common for it to get hurt, Gabe. When you're running, you're essentially hopping from one leg to the other, and a lot of the load goes through the Achilles — the three calf muscles pulling, the Achilles withstanding it, to jump and land. Running is a very repetitive sport, thousands of steps

[23:16] over long distances, and any time you load a tissue beyond its current capacity, you risk an overload injury, which the Achilles is prone to. Basically training too much without enough rest, which builds up over time and becomes problematic, and you end up with symptoms. I haven't taken the physio course that'll be at SCU next year, but I

[23:47] know a calf is made up of the soleus and the gastrocnemius — that's how many calf injuries I've had, Gabe, I feel practically qualified already. We've talked a lot because we've both had calf issues — I went all the way to LA to get my calf fixed once, that's how serious it got. I asked my wife if I could —

[24:18] there were physios here the whole time. Funny enough, for anyone who didn't hear the early episodes — I went all the way to a Red Bull facility in LA to get my calf looked at, and the irony is we ended up on a consult with one of the AIS's head physios back in Canberra. I could have just gone to Canberra and gotten the same support. But there we go — we've got the best experts right here. I'm curious how much the Achilles tendon itself, versus the calf, factors into this.

[24:48] The Achilles tendon is made up of the tendons of the two gastrocnemius heads and the soleus — each has its own tendon, and they join to form the Achilles. They're intimately connected, and that's what links the three muscles to the heel to let you move and push off — so the Achilles is really an extension of the three muscles that make up the calf complex. If I wanted to go into a marathon as strong as possible calf-wise, is there anything you'd prescribe to help with that?

[25:20] One of the most common things we see in runners with Achilles tendinopathy is low calf endurance. There's a lot of research into isometrics and resistance training, which loads the tendon and helps modify its structure, but the muscle's issue isn't usually maximum force production — it's endurance, which makes sense for running, since it's an endurance sport. When treating Achilles tendinopathy, we usually run a few tests — endurance, peak strength, and mobility — and address each

[25:51] separately depending on what's found. What does an endurance test look like — how would I test my own calf endurance? It's as simple as: how many can you do. There's some research using a single-leg heel raise test, which we use and are also researching further — you go up and down on your toes, using a metronome to keep the pace consistent so you're not rushing or slowing down, and you do as many as you can. You'll feel the burn, and you keep going.

[26:22] On test day we'll have someone calling out reps, because your brain will tell you to stop before your muscles actually give out, which we touched on earlier — you push to make sure you're getting the true number before the brain gives up. Quickly — the obvious question: what's a good number to aim for?

[26:55] This is something we're looking at specifically for runners, especially injured ones. There's a normative-data paper from 2017, but it's for the general population, not runners specifically, so it's a bit different — but the number we have in mind at the moment is around 30. If you can do more than 30 single-leg heel raises, you're relatively safe.

[27:26] Is that with a bent knee or straight? Straight knee. There's a lot of discussion about that — bent-knee works the soleus more specifically, but

[27:56] with a straight knee the soleus still works about the same, so unless you have a specific muscle injury you want to isolate, working the whole complex with a straight knee will train everyone about equally. Anyone listening who's stopped mid-run to test this — Gabe just mentioned the brain telling you to quit before your body's ready. Is that actually true, that your brain will tell

[27:56] you to quit before your body's actually finished? Yeah, the brain is interesting — especially if you start training for a marathon, and I've seen this with plenty of athletes and experienced it myself, the brain is very protective. As soon as it feels fatigue building, it starts saying, I don't like this discomfort, I don't want to keep going, let's just stop here. So it starts to overreact — we should stop, we should really take a break.

[28:27] When physiologically you can often push much further than you think. A huge part of it is teaching your brain to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, and pushing through those mental fatigue barriers. There's no perfect way to train that specifically — a big part of it is just building up the kilometres and getting used to what that feels like mentally. You can use

[28:59] things like music or podcasts, but that's a distraction, and getting used to running without them can also be really helpful — not for every run, but enough to get used to running with your own thoughts, understanding what fatigue starts to feel like. Even if you can just push a little further than that point, you're teaching your brain that it's okay, that you're going to be fine. I actually really like going on long runs without listening to anything —

[29:31] I'll point at a tree in the distance and think, I'm going to run to that tree, then pick the next one — or I'll literally just count my breaths, getting used to being in my own body and letting my brain be comfortable with the fatigue. If you get used to that and experiment with it in training, then by race day it's still not going to feel amazing — at kilometre 36 of a marathon you're going to be tired — but you're more used to that feeling. You start to learn it's okay, we're getting

[30:03] close to the end, my body's tired, but that's fine, my brain's just telling me it's a bit fatigued. Gabe gave us an example of how you test endurance in the calf muscles — does the brain work on a similar basis, that if you put it through training it should be better suited on race day?

[30:33] Yeah, you definitely want to train your brain to do that too. A bit of a different area, but if you look at ultra running, people will run really late at night, out for a couple of hours in the middle of the night, to train for an event and get their brain used to that fatigue — thinking, yeah, I'm really tired, running in the dark, I don't really want to be doing this — but actually practising long runs like that, if you're into ultra running, going out at night or really early in the morning, makes the race experience so much better. It's not necessarily pleasant to practise, but it's really

[31:05] important, and it helps on race day if you're used to those feelings of discomfort, or have at least acknowledged them beforehand. Is there data on whether some people just have more of that resilience naturally, or can everyone train to the same level? Is that part of what separates the best athletes from the rest?

[31:35] Mixed — good question, that made Mel pause and think. There's going to be some mixed data on that. There's a very, very rare subset of people who physiologically can't feel pain at all —

[32:08] unfortunately their lifespans aren't super long, but physiologically some people can't feel pain normally. More typically, some people have a higher pain tolerance than others, and a better ability to push through discomfort — so everybody's tolerance is quite different. No one has a magic key to it, but some people definitely have a better natural ability to push through discomfort than others. Everybody has the ability to practise that, though, and get exposure to discomfort, and work out what mental tricks help them

[32:39] get through it. Everybody's response to discomfort and fatigue is different, and I think that's important — whether you're working with a coach or running your own plan, really understanding yourself and your own tolerance for discomfort and fatigue, and working out what tricks work best for you, is a genuinely individual thing. I'll add something here — I think Mel's mentioned a few times about knowing yourself and your limits, and it's also

[33:11] really important to recognise what type of pain you're feeling during a run — is it fatigue-related, something you can push through, or should you stop and see a physio or get a structured programme so you don't hurt yourself further? It's really important to know your body and listen to it, so you're not pushing through and ending up injured. So — hard question — when should I actually stop, with the calf and Achilles and lower leg?

[33:45] I'll have to think about it, see how it goes. Not a good question, Courtney, not a good one. But say you don't have any pain, go for a run, and partway through start feeling a little pain — if it doesn't get worse, just stays where it is, that should be fine, as long as after you stop, or the day after, the pain's no longer there. It could just be something that got briefly overloaded, and

[34:15] once you've recovered and had a good night's sleep, it's gone. But once it becomes more regular, or the pain doesn't go away — you're walking to work the next day and it's still there — that's more of a problem, either an injury or inflammation from something you did, and we need a different approach. Okay — shoes.

[34:45] Mel just said there's no magic key for pain tolerance — surely there's a magic key for the right shoe to run the best marathon or 10K? Whatever's comfortable and doesn't hurt your foot. Come on, there's got to be a better answer than that. But that's genuinely it — there's a lot of research on running shoe types and new technology, and some can make you a little faster at the elite end, but for the average

[35:15] runner, not the elite athlete, there's no such thing as a definitively right shoe. If it's comfortable and you're used to it, that's the right way to go — and don't buy a new shoe today to run a marathon tomorrow, because you'll have problems. When you're doing your studies, do you factor in the shoes people wear, or drop heights, or is it purely muscular?

[35:48] It's purely muscular for what I do — there is a lot of research on that too, but that's not my area, that's more a full biomechanical analysis, more related to podiatry. What I do — my whole PhD was about the relationship between the central nervous system and the muscles, specifically the three calf muscles. Previous research suggested people with Achilles tendinopathy have a specific deficiency in the soleus, and we wanted to investigate whether there's a specific

[36:20] deficit, where it comes from, and why it's not improving with exercise. The brain connects through the spinal cord to the muscles, and even though the calf works as a synergist muscle group — the three muscles working together to plantarflex the foot — they have partially independent control, so the brain can adjust each one somewhat separately for joint stability and movement control.

[36:51] So it makes sense you could have a selective weakness. We investigated that by looking at the brain and the specific muscles through motor units — the components connecting muscle fibres to the spinal cord — and found that the lateral gastrocnemius specifically receives reduced stimulus from the brain and spinal cord, which lines up with other

[37:22] research out there. So we're looking into what's called neural drive — how much drive the nervous system sends into that muscle — and trying to figure out how to address it. So it's my brain's fault my calf keeps straining? Not exactly your brain, since it involves the cortex and also the spinal cord — so your spine's fault too, really both. Is there anything, early out of that research, beyond just

[37:53] strengthening the calf, that could help? We're investigating that — there's some really interesting research out of Brazil on strength training, and some from Europe looking at how foot position can selectively influence each muscle. There's early evidence that if the deficit is in the lateral gastrocnemius specifically, exercising with the foot pointed inward

[38:23] can increase drive, and even hypertrophy, in that muscle. So there are strategies to selectively target each muscle — like the bent-knee point earlier, if we know the soleus is the main issue, we can use a bent-knee strategy to selectively load it more. For that research, are you using Gold Coast athletes, or data

[38:53] sets from overseas? We're recruiting athletes directly — people come into the lab and we research on them. How do people find you for that? I've just started at Southern Cross, so I'm still building the lab there — in the next few months we'll be advertising on social media and trying to reach people. My PhD was through QUT, and I had a lot of support from running clubs and people through

[39:26] social media I got in touch with — even Britt sent me a couple of Achilles patients for the research. I'll just keep trying to reach people, put it out there so they can find us. If you've got a dodgy calf — well, there's one sitting right across the desk from you. SCU's also got their own run club, one of the biggest teams competing in the 10K this year, and last year too — so you can just walk downstairs from the campus and find them.

[39:57] As we said at the start, this is the eighteenth year running that Southern Cross Uni's been a major partner of the Gold Coast Marathon weekend, specifically the 10K. We've talked mostly about the marathon because that's been the focus, but the 10K's been brought forward to the Saturday this year instead of the Sunday. I'm really excited about that, because it declutters the weekend and lets the 10K get a bit more shine than it's

[40:27] had in previous years sharing the weekend with the marathon — which for a lot of people, and I know we've talked a lot about the marathon, but a first 10K is a genuinely monumental task to take on. It'll be great for it to get some shine on the Saturday. The marathon's obviously coming up in July, and Southern Cross Uni's mid-year term starts in July too. So if anyone out there, like me, has had their interest piqued by all this physio and running talk, learning more

[40:58] about the calf and its links to the brain, which is fascinating stuff — mid-year term starts in July, so if you've been humming and hawing, get in touch, go have a look, you might find a course you're interested in. Mel and Gabe, this has been incredible and genuinely thrilling for us, getting to bring in actual experts on stuff you've studied for so long and continue to advance. A big thank you to Southern Cross Uni

[41:29] as well, not just for bringing you two in with us today, but for the continued support of the marathon — because, like all the partners of these races, the Gold Coast Marathon can only exist with that support, and there's real growth ahead for this race. It's going to be the biggest race in the marathon's history this year — and speaking to Ryan McDonald from Gold Coast Marathon the other day,

[42:01] they've got big plans ahead for the race. It's partners like Southern Cross Uni that make it all possible, so pass that thanks back to the people at the university. And now we've got your emails — expect us to spam you a bit, when I'm mentally broken, Mel, expect a long DM. Do you accept voicemails, actually? Because I might just send them your way, Mel — send it mid-race, say, Mel, I need a pep talk. That would be an amazing

[42:31] service the uni could offer — voicemail pep talks mid-race. SCU pep talks. You're an ideas man, Liam — good, we'll talk about this off air, keep it between you, me and the uni. All right, thank you both so much, and to everybody listening, if you found this useful or interesting, share it, send it on — even if you're not running the 10K, marathon or half this year, please pass it on, because Gabe and Mel have both brought some really interesting stuff worth sharing today. Enjoy. Absolutely.

[43:01] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.