Courtney Atkinson and Liam Flanagan on Noosa Triathlon, Olympics & 2032, heart rate training — recorded on the Gold Coast.
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Auto-generated transcript. Timestamps approximate. Hosts: Courtney Atkinson & Liam Flanagan.
[00:00] Mate, where do we start? I'm going to say Richie Porte, because I know he's a highlight of yours — but he was also a highlight of mine. It's funny when you meet people: I've never met Richie in my life. For those who don't know, Richie Porte is obviously a Tour de France rider who finished fourth on the podium. I've been watching him for years — he actually started out in triathlon, so he'd race Noosa back when I was having a bit of my heyday. He was a little younger than me, and I'd been watching him ever since.
[00:32] Anyway, we got up on stage at the Noosa launch and I happened to be sitting next to him. I introduced myself and he said, “Oh, I should remember you — you must have been one of the original Red Bull athletes.” And I was like, you remember me? I've been watching you for years, getting up at 4am before training just to watch the Tour de France. Nicest bloke, mate — absolute legend, so quiet. But what really got me excited was when we got out on the
[01:03] weekend to race, on the Saturday afternoon up at Noosa. They have the professional run, the professional ride, and then they mix in a bunch of public figures into teams — everyone from swimmers to cyclists to radio guys. And let's just cut to the chase: you led Richie Porte on the bike. Correct. Let's finish there, there's no more to be said — I led Richie Porte, a podium finisher at the Tour de France, on the bike.
[01:33] Let's just leave it there and move on. What else do we want to talk about? We'll mention Ky Hurst in there too — how did you end up leading the bike? So the whole reason we were at Noosa was coming off the back of what I think is the greatest weekend on the Australian athletics calendar. Noosa Tri — it's brilliant, that Legends race is so much fun. And for you as an elite athlete, genuinely, did you get a thrill out of it? I did this weekend — this was the best one I've been in, hands down, and here's the reason.
[02:04] Because that Saturday, that little Legends race probably lasted maybe 45 minutes — but in there you had Olympians and Noosa Tri legends like yourself. Susie O'Neill was there. AFL guys — you had three of the Brisbane Lions premiership side, or two of them anyway, Jared Berry and Kyle Lowman. Scott Pendlebury, one of the greatest footballers the game has seen, was there, and the thing I loved is that if that race had
[02:34] been happening in Melbourne that weekend, he would have been the biggest ticket in the race — but because it was in Noosa, even the announcer introduced him as “Scott Pendlehurst,” and I lost it, because mate, you'd have had fruit thrown at you if you'd done that in Melbourne. Pendles was there, Benny Hannan was there too representing the NRL, you had Will Davison representing motorsport, Glenn McGrath was there, and then you had a few media types.
[03:04] Rhianna Crane, who we've got to give a shout-out to — the poor thing was in your team for this race. She does such an awesome job on the Supercars coverage, and she was meant to be racing Bathurst in a month from now, and she's crashed on her bike. Shoulder's cooked, collarbone's gone — accidents just happen. I want to put a pin in that, because I do want to talk to you about training accidents in your career and how you deal with them, because
[03:34] Ree has dealt with it with such grace. But from a punter's perspective, to be out on the course with you and everyone else I just mentioned was seriously one of the most thrilling hours of my life. Even just doing the safety check beforehand, where they run through what not to do — don't cheat, this is being broadcast — and I'm standing there, as I mentioned, next to Richie Porte, and this
[04:05] was the part of the story: you'd organised it, yes — not very well, obviously. You tried to use your influence to get you and me on the same team. The idea was that In the Beginning Podcast was going to represent as one team, along with your Japanese swimmer friend, who competed for Japan in two Olympics in the tank ocean swim. I got an email the night before from the organisers saying here's your team — and it was, this is not happening. So there's my team, I get the list and I'm still writing it down.
[04:36] So who's your team? My runner is Beth McKenzie, a former pro triathlete who's still one of the best female trail runners in Australia — she won UTA 100 this year down in the Blue Mountains, and she competed in the 5K bolt on the day as well. She's a weapon, a terrific athlete — like yourself, a former pro turned elite endurance athlete, first time at the 100K at UTA and won the biggest trail race in Australia.
[05:07] My swimmer was Ky Hurst, and I'll admit I was disappointed we weren't racing together, but when I saw I'd be in a team with Ky Hurst I did get a bit excited. You're a fan, aren't you? We've talked about this — I think for someone your age, there's a real nostalgia about athletes of the early 2000s.
[05:38] It's a pre-social-media thing. It's the days when Wide World of Sports told us which athletes mattered — we've talked about this concept before, waking up on a Saturday morning and the free-to-air TV station telling you which athletes matter right now. You were one of those, and so was Ky Hurst in the Nutri-Grain Ironman Series, one of those athletes of the era. So getting to be on a team with him — when I posted
[06:09] about it, I had so many people reach out and go, “Oh my God, Ky Hurst, I love that bloke.” So many people telling me what a great bloke he is. My favourite one was a mate of mine who messaged me saying, “I'm 40 years old and every time I catch a wave at the beach I still imagine I'm Ky Hurst.” So there was that real nostalgia, it took us right back. Absolute thrill. But before the race I'd already taken my bike into transition
[06:42] and deflated the tyres in preparation for the triathlon on Sunday. So I had to go and get my bike, and I've wheeled it out, and Benny Hannan said, “Mate, do you need my pump?” I said yeah, and I'm fiddling around with it, and all of a sudden I hear this voice say, “Mate, can I give you a hand?” I look up — let me guess, Richie Porte? And it's Richie Porte, a Tour de France legend, didn't know who I was, graciously offering to pump up my tyres. Well, when he saw your bike, that's probably what prompted the offer.
[07:13] He was probably thinking, why is there a $500 bike sitting in this group — I thought it was in my contract I wouldn't have to be around such relics. He was thinking, I'm going out on the bike course with this guy, I'd better make sure he's safe, because at some stage I'm going to be coming round a corner and he's going to be in my way. And the best part is he said to me, “What PSI do you want the tyres at?” For people who don't ride and only run — you don't know what riding is.
[07:44] PSI is how much you've inflated your tyres. I've done ten Noosa Triathlons and I've never once thought about PSI — I just put the pump on, go to 100, that's it. So I said to Richie, and he said, given the conditions, tight hairpin turns, I'd probably go to 60.
[08:14] And I said, sounds good, Richie, wherever you say. The irony is, for anyone who understands cycling, 60 is quite a low pressure — but the difference is you were running 19 or 20mm tyres. Today they run much wider tyres, which you run at lower pressure because they're wide. I had no idea about any of it — I know he's the pro, but I don't think when he said 60 he was accounting for the fact you had nineteens on.
[08:44] So before I've done anything, Richie Porte has inflated my tyres — my ego's inflated along with them. Then I'm standing around having just met Ky, feeling a million bucks. We get into the course — there's a big crowd lining the roads at Noosa, the biggest crowd of the weekend — and I'm standing there on the bike ready to go, and of course Ky comes out of the swim first. So I genuinely
[09:17] it was my worst fear and dream scenario wrapped into one, because I was going to be leading this Legends race on my own, and Ky had a big lead too. It was only a 3.6K ride, three laps of 1.2K each. I took it all in, all the nervous energy, and by the time I hit the first turn I was cooked. But by the time I got midway through the second lap, Richie Porte had arrived, and my
[09:49] god, can he make a bike move. It was incredible to watch him take off — I was probably doing about 40km/h at the time, which for me is decent going, especially on that bike, and he made me look like I had training wheels on. It was incredible to watch. He's still fit as a fiddle, and arguably could have won a total
[10:20] — it's about power-to-weight ratio, and I reckon he'd weigh about 55 kilos, and the power he gets out of those 55 kilos is truly remarkable. I was pumped to see it all unfolding, because meanwhile I was running. So who did I have in my team? Ky was on the bike, and I had Simon Thompson, who competed at the 2004 Olympics in triathlon — I raced against him a little. These days he's actually one of the bigwigs down at Anytime Fitness, in the gyms.
[10:50] That's what he does for a day job now, but he's still super fit. Anyway, we're going along and not going too badly, but I'm a little behind. Then I'm standing there after you finish, and I've run over and shoved the camera in front of you — got the story, come back, still got my camera running, waiting for Ree to come in. And I turn to everyone, Jan Frodeno right over my shoulder — the best triathlete ever — and I said to you, what are you still doing standing here? And as I turned around, we all just collectively —
[11:21] Ree went over the handlebars. Not great. It was — look, she was meant to be racing Bathurst again, and the way she deals with obstacles when they get thrown up, I would have thrown all my toys out, I'd have been so filthy about it. She's trained for an Ironman, I don't know if she's done one before, but this would have been a huge moment she'd been building towards. She's got a young kid, she's got
[11:51] a partner who's a full-time V8 Supercar driver, and she lives a busy life, trying to fit all this in between. So we hope she has a good recovery — I know she's going into surgery, but she'll be back for sure. Hey, I wanted to talk to you about Noosa a bit — well, just let me finish my story. Sorry, go on. So there were a few names you mentioned — I was out running, and obviously I'm a runner, so there's different standards. Glenn McGrath was out there, and a few
[12:23] others. I did run up to Scott and I gave Kenny Wallace — a good mate of mine, Olympic gold medallist in the kayak — a big slap on the backside while he was running, caught him about halfway through. Scott was running next to him and said, “Oh, he got you good.” I said, yeah mate, I caught you. But — isn't he a big man, given the sport he plays? He's a big man, he's a big man.
[12:55] And the way he runs — I was taken aback, because I'd called footy for a long time and called Scott before, but to stand side by side with him and watch him race, and there were a lot of footy players up there that weekend — it just shows it takes all shapes and sizes. Very impressive. Well, they do run well — I was at Pizzey Park last Thursday morning and Bradley Hill was there, formerly of the Hawks, now at Fremantle — or is he at St Kilda?
[13:26] He's back at St Kilda, that's right — went from Hawks to Freo, now he's back at St Kilda. He was running a track session with me on Thursday, and I'll tell you, he can run. We did a good 25-minute session — eight minutes threshold, some hills, then back into another eight minutes threshold — and he's just cruising along next to me. He can run, and he's a good guy, cruising around, nice fella. Handy football CV too — won a bunch of flags with
[13:59] Hawthorn during their heyday, then went back home to WA, which is where he's from. It's been a big week — lots going on up here around south-east Queensland. I want to talk to you about Noosa before we move off triathlon, and I know some people listening to this podcast — namely your wife — are sick of us talking triathlon. Brayden Mercer, Ash Gentle — they've got to find something to name after her at the Noosa Triathlon, there's about eleven now.
[14:30] You can't even bet against her anymore. I wouldn't have a problem if they named the women's trophy the Ash Gentle — the dominance is ridiculous. But onto Brayden Mercer from the men's race — I think Brayden winning is the story triathlon needs to move into the future. Say more. The reason I think that is we've talked a lot about how hard it is for niche sports and
[15:01] athletes, without TV or much media coverage, to get their name out and build noise around them. Brayden comes with a lot of history — he comes from the famous Mercer family. His dad is the late Dean Mercer, his uncle is Darren Mercer, his cousin is Jordy Mercer, an Uncle Tobys Ironman winner in his own right, and his mum raced in her day too.
[15:34] Brayden Mercer, arguably a better athlete than the Mercer brothers in her own right — I'll say that out loud — racing in the Uncle Tobys Series when it was a real pioneer series. These are all names your friends grew up watching on TV, legacy and history. And now we're seeing the next generation of that, and it wasn't necessarily expected for Brayden to come out and win this.
[16:06] It wasn't totally unexpected, but I wouldn't have put him down as the favourite. I ran into him on the Saturday before the race and he messaged me after — I'd said something to him and walked off without thinking too much of it. But he messaged me after the race and said, “You told me on Saturday that if I could win this, people would notice.” And mate, people noticed — everyone noticed. Can't wait to see what's next, because I really think if he
[16:38] keeps at it and keeps moving, he's going to be a big story. With the Olympics in Brisbane coming up, I'm re-energised about this. Your memory's a gift and a curse — the fact you don't necessarily remember saying that to him on Saturday, the day before, that if he wins people will notice — I mean, you know how many people we see on a day like that. It's also pretty profound. I probably just said it to
[17:10] him and walked away. The reason I say people will notice is — and I'll go one step further — Noosa Tri, or the Noosa Festival, is the one race in Australia you can go around the country and say “I'm doing Noosa Tri” and everyone knows it. It's the one race people know outside of triathlon in this country, because it's the
[17:40] destination everyone comes to — because of the Steve Moneghetti's, the runs, the cycling, the Legends race we were involved in — there's always extra things that make it an experience and a destination. That's why I'd have said to him, if you win this one, people will remember. It's the most important race on the calendar for triathlon in Australia, I'd say, except for the Olympic Games — if you want to become someone in Australian triathlon, it's the most important race to
[18:11] win, after maybe Hawaii and an Olympic Games. I don't think you should underestimate how significant your words were, because for Brayden to follow up with a message — he'd have had RSI from replying to everyone who messaged him off the back of this. A young kid with all the social channels, Snapchat, Instagram, whatever — he'd have had so many mates, family, everyone reach out. So for him to take the time to write back to you, and
[18:44] reiterate what you'd said to him on Saturday, shows it clearly meant something to him. He's a good kid — well, not really a kid, he's twenty years old, a good young man. He's a Noosa champ. Even though I haven't spent a lot of time with him, I feel invested, partly because of everyone I've mentioned that I've known throughout my career, and partly because he actually went to the same school as me — TSS at Southport. I met him when he
[19:15] was in about grade ten, give or take. And Jackson Elliott, who coaches at Gold Coast, was the guy I was talking about running track with Brad on Thursday — he's a teacher over at the school, looks after the cross country and track teams, and brings some of the older boys down to train against us, or some of the sons come down to train too. The running joke for years was that I still hold the school record 25 years later in the 3000 metres.
[19:47] What's the record? I think 8:25. So the running joke is that every year Jackson brings in a new grade twelve kid trying to break the 3000 metre record, and I'm the old guy they have to race. I get out there training against them, still keeping up, and they're trying to break my record. Brayden went through that process too — not really hazing, but you know what I mean —
[20:17] turning up to training a few times and Jacko giving him a bit of stick because I'm out there running against him. But I'll tell you what, I'm not going to beat him anymore, because he ran 31:03 off the bike on the weekend. So — back to running here, we're back to running. 31:03, and just to put that into context, it wasn't an easy year. Third was Luke Willian, who raced for Australia in Paris this year — he came third. But last year Hayden Wilde, who was second at the Olympics this year, won the race and won the run with a 30:33.
[20:51] So he's in the ballpark for his age, and Matt Hauser ran 30:45 to come second last year. So it's a genuinely solid performance. Congrats to him — let's keep his name on the top of our minds, I reckon there are some big things coming. And just for those playing along at home, Courtney's TSS 3K record — you can find it on Google too — 2:48 pace, 8:25 for the three K's, 2:48 pace.
[21:24] Yeah, and you know what, I even got beaten in my last year of high school doing that, by a guy from Brisbane who didn't go on to anything much. But I do remember someone telling me at one stage they used to train by going to the bottom of the ten-metre diving pool at Chandler and pretend-sprinting along the bottom of the pool. I don't know how true that was, but it's a good story. One more thing before we leave
[21:54] and then we cannot mention triathlon again for at least another six months, or sixteen episodes. One of my good mates races in a category I think is the most underrated, under-talked-about thing at Noosa — the Clydesdale category. Amid all the shiny, calf-flexing bodies walking around Noosa, you've got the Clydesdale category — 90 to 100 kilos, weigh-in required. Benny Hannan, former
[22:25] winner of the Clydesdale, former winner of the 100-plus category. What I found interesting is they actually weigh you in, literally like a horse, on the scales, and it got me thinking — the opposite of cutting weight for boxing, you're trying to put on weight to make the category, then strip it before the day. So I asked one of my best mates, Justin — does anyone try to cheat the system? Can you
[22:56] wear a weight vest? Put lead in your undies? Chug water right before you get on the scales? How serious are they about this? Bring it in your suit, that's a good point. Look, that said — where do we go with the Clydesdale category at the Noosa Triathlon? It's not like there's an Olympic medal on the line. Well, there's an Olympic medal to them, though — every category means something.
[23:26] I get it. I often think, when I'm watching marathons — I hover around high seventies, eighty kilos myself, pretty stocky — and I see someone clearly above three figures running a marathon or half marathon, I'm genuinely impressed by them. It's hard yakka to run that heavy, imagine carrying an extra twenty kilo plate with you.
[23:58] They deserve that category to get through a triathlon at pace. So we've put Noosa to bed for at least six months. My wife will be relieved. One shout-out from Noosa — a young man named Riley approached me on the beach, heard me talking to my wife, and said, “Are you Liam?” I said yes, and he said he loves the podcast. I don't know how he picked it up, but he's been listening.
[24:28] Shout out to Riley — he's just moved up from Sydney to the Gold Coast. Good move. He wants to join the Tuesday run group — I'm going to try and drag him out on a Saturday morning first, see what he's made of. He's got a swimming background but is learning the running journey, and he copped a time penalty for drafting in the Noosa 10K. Segue to running — do they have Clydesdale categories in marathons? They should, if anyone
[25:00] knows of one, let us know, because there are some big fellas around 90 kilos who, by no means because of anything they've done, are just big fellas. Give them a category, I say. And it's that kind of pivot — because we live in a woke world, right, when the AFL decided they weren't going to list player weights anymore, I understood the rationale.
[25:31] I did, I understood the logic, I disagreed with it. As a commentator, I find that information useful when I'm doing my job — the weights of these players is useful, particularly when you might see someone like Bradley Hill, at best guess around 80 kilos, matched up against Patrick Cripps, also a midfielder but slightly different position, who probably weighs 96 kilos. That's a 16 kilo body weight difference between two
[26:04] players in a one-on-one match-up, and that's relevant to the moment — it's not quite David and Goliath, but it lets you talk up the physical advantage Patrick Cripps has in that match-up. So that information is relevant. The AFL said it wasn't relevant data, or that it had the potential to — let's not beat around the bush —
[26:34] they did it because of the world we're in today. I highly disagree with this. I'll let you finish your argument, but all I was going to say is I'd never thought about it until you brought it up — and there's a women's category too, the men's are the Clydesdales, the women's are the Athenas. There's no sense of shame attached to entering those categories. No, quite the opposite — there are guys trying to get the
[27:04] weight up to make sure they can be in it. There's this feeling that there should be some shame around entering those categories, and there shouldn't be — I'm glad those categories exist, and I'd be right behind any marathon or running race creating them, if people want to enter to get competitive, to try and win, to find some way to stand atop a podium — I'm right behind it.
[27:34] Yeah, in running of all events, weight matters — if you're a lighter frame, you move easier. So in sports where gravity's involved, why not? From what I know, the people who race in these categories actually want to be there, they love it, they own it, that's what they go out to do. But back to the AFL thing, because I do highly disagree with this,
[28:04] and not for the reason I mentioned before — the pure reason I disagree is these athletes are paid a lot of money to be elite athletes, and with that comes scrutiny. If you can't take the scrutiny, you shouldn't take the money. I know it's the AFL putting the rule in, but it's come from somewhere, and I don't know the exact reasoning — but if you're being paid three, four, five hundred thousand dollars a year to play footy, and your job
[28:37] is to be a professional athlete, having your skin folds done or your weight made public should be the least of the things you're worried about. We should be worried about performance, and if performance in an elite area isn't up to scratch, just like any other part of the game people scrutinise, you should be able to scrutinise the physical side too. You're right, and I agree — I often say
[29:10] when we hear footballers say, “I didn't sign up to be a role model,” — no, you're right, you didn't, but it's part of the gig. In Australian society, and world society, we put athletes on a pedestal, and with that pedestal comes money, opportunity and privilege — but it also comes with expectation. I think, look, it's a
[29:44] minor thing, it hasn't changed much, but it becomes something of a gateway — what's next? What else are we no longer allowed to do — will we reach a point where if a player has a bad game or a bad season, we can't criticise them for fear of their — a hundred percent, and this is where it starts, and the reason I'm passionate about it is that fitness is part of performance.
[30:17] So it does matter — if you have access to other data, disposals, whatever it is, how fit you are and how you're performing on the field is part of that data. I guess the counter is that the club has it, the people who need it have it. I see that point, and I don't want to disappear down the footy rabbit hole, but I often think about the trade period we're about to enter, or any American sport — it's a different pay grade,
[30:47] but you walk in as an NBA player one day and your club says we've traded you to a team on the other side of the country, and you don't get to sit down and say, “Oh no, I don't want that trade.” I'm sure the first thing they do is a full medical, but it's not a case of “I don't want to play there” — you're an employee, that's how it works, those are the rules of the game. In the AFL we don't have pure free agency where clubs can trade players wherever they choose —
[31:17] the players have enormous power in dictating where they end up. I understand that, but it's that question of whether you get your cake and eat it too. I don't know enough about AFL to get into the draft — let's go back to running. Sydney Marathon — we have a major! Australians rejoice, we are now home to the seventh major World Marathon. For those playing along at home, ten seconds thinking time to name the other
[31:48] six, now that a seventh major is being hosted in Australia from here on. There's your thinking time, Courtney. The other six are of course London, Berlin, Chicago, Boston, New York and Tokyo — those are the six major marathons. Interesting that three of those are in America. But Australia — now, I'd love it to be on the Gold Coast personally, but it's awesome, it's great, let's just get that out of the way.
[32:19] It is great to have a major in Australia. I also wonder — they've been chasing this from the way the race was designed to get major status, that's how it's been handled for the past few years, running over the Sydney Harbour as a course. I get why it's a major, and it is the best location to have a marathon in Australia to show the world — you can sell that image, that moment, that section to the
[32:49] world, just like people went to New York on the weekend for the marathon, running through the boroughs, over the bridge. Same reason people will come to Sydney for the Opera House, the Bridge, all the iconic spots. However — here we go — I do think the other marathons in Australia have a right to be a little bit annoyed. Why? Well, somewhere like the Gold Coast, even Melbourne to a degree, they've been at it —
[33:19] the Gold Coast has been at it for years, an international-standard event, and it's on the international fastest-marathon list. If you wanted a race in Australia to break records, it would be the Gold Coast — and Sydney's come along and, in what, two years, done it through sheer willpower and financial investment. So I'm all for it, I think it's the right choice, but I understand there are other marathon organisers in the country who might feel that way. Sydney, and
[33:50] to that point I agree with you — I love that we've got one, I love that Sydney's a major marathon. I'd say to the organisers, now is not the time to take your foot off the pedal. You've got twelve months, probably more like eight, to not just double down but go, we're a major now, let's make sure this looks like a major next year. Yes, you've got the Bridge, yes you've got the Opera House finish, there are sections of that course — you talk about New York, I've run London, and
[34:21] there's not a dull moment on the London course — you finish running down towards Buckingham Palace, running over the Thames at various points. New York has all the boroughs. There are sections of the Sydney course that are a bit boring. Which sections? What do you think's boring? The Moore Park Hill section, is that out near Centennial? Yeah, sort of — and look, short of adorning it with bunting and putting up crazy
[34:52] stands everywhere, I do think Sydney needs to look at ways to characterise the course a bit more. You've got major status now, so work with some of these partners or local councils to really create — you mean give each suburb some character? Exactly — I don't know which suburbs, but you want people coming away from next year's Sydney Marathon having run a major and talking not
[35:22] just about the bridge moment and the Opera House finish, but talking about the Centennial section, or another suburban stretch of the run. I just think now is the time to keep pushing, not stop just because you've got the major classification. So with this announcement, do you now want to run Sydney over Melbourne? Because we'd pegged you as wanting to run into the MCG — that was your preferred event for next year.
[35:54] Does this change the conversation for you? You know, I think it does a little bit. Call me shameless, call me a fame-seeker if you want — I've run one major, London, but the idea of running all the majors is on my list. So to go back — that's a goal, to run all the majors? Yeah, why not, all seven. I'm assuming that's a thing across the globe — people chasing all
[36:24] six, so there'll be a certain group coming to Sydney next year because they've already done the six and now they need to tick off the seventh. That's probably a big group, I'd suggest. Well, hold on — let's make an agreement with the In the Beginning Podcast family right now, because we're still small and boutique enough to make this kind of agreement with our audience. Any half-baked idea we come up with on these podcasts, we're happy for someone more proactive to run with.
[36:56] We'll go fifty-fifty, that's the deal. So next year, Sydney Marathon 2025, first time as a major — the Seventh Heaven Club, or name TBD — there's going to be a crew of people, as you mentioned, coming from across the globe who've done six majors and now need to top up, we'll call it the Top-Up Club. There's an opportunity here — you're going to be a tour guide, is that what you're volunteering for with
[37:26] this club? Volunteering tours of Sydney. Simple T-shirt idea — London, Berlin, Chicago, Boston, New York, Tokyo, all with a line through them, then Sydney with no line, and you cross it off at the end. I'll take a big stab there are plenty of tour companies who haven't thought of this yet — this announcement only happened yesterday.
[37:56] Courtney, are you talking about monetising this? I'm just saying, the Top-Up Club, think about it. We've got a major though — great news for Australian running. Amazing, big news actually. I'm going to keep talking marathons for a moment, because off the back of that, New York was on the weekend. I didn't follow it that closely, I'll be honest — I've got a couple of mates who ran it and I kept tabs on their times, but there's a lot — do you know
[38:26] there's a lot of people running who aren't elite but turn up to these majors looking like they've brought a professional production company with them. Not just a few, either — literally, I opened Instagram around that event — we're never going to mention it again for at least six months, we'll give it a break — but every single
[38:58] Australian athlete I saw, no matter what time they ran, looked like they had a professional production crew with them. The turnaround time on those productions is what impresses me, because after I run a marathon, the last thing I want to think about for the next two days is running, let alone looking at footage of myself running. I'd just want to sleep. But we were chatting about elite athletes needing funding to help build teams around them, to level up and become
[39:29] more appealing to a wider audience, like a run influencer would be. But what I was getting at on the weekend is — where's the money coming from for these production crews going out with amateur athletes? Is it the brands, or the individuals paying for it themselves? Good question — I've never been to run the New York Marathon, but it can't be cheap to take a film crew with you. Would I pay for my own?
[40:01] No, I'd still consider myself in that camp — you saw me on the weekend on my own GoPro, that's about as much production as I can afford. But I'm seeing genuinely production-level filming, pre, post and during. I'm not having a go at it, it's amazing to watch — I just wonder what's going to happen, because we're
[40:32] still in that content-generation phase of running, right — with all the running success happening around us in Australia, the marathons and other events, and all the run clubs popping up, it seems to go hand in hand with content generation. I wonder what the return on it is, and what the attrition rate is for these accounts and clubs — where will they be in ten years?
[41:04] It would be an interesting exercise to take ten run clubs or run influencers generating content right now, monitor them for ten years, and see where they're at — what, 2034, or even just by the next Olympics — see if any of them have made a sustainable career out of it, or if it's petered out, if they're even running at all, if the clubs still exist. Because the things that last and endure —
[41:36] you look at surf clubs, they endure because of the lifestyle and community built around them. I wonder if these run clubs and content creators with tens of thousands of followers will have that same community endure beyond right now. Purely from a business point of view, you've got expenses, and you're trying to turn that into income or a profit —
[42:07] it can't be their full-time gig, I just wonder where the balance sits. But what we're seeing is amazing footage, genuinely quick turnarounds on the day. What I actually wanted to talk about from New York was the top twenty shoes — we've talked about shoes and the elites before, and I'd always trust the shoes the elites wear, because one, they've done the testing, and
[42:37] the investment is there from the companies who've done the research and support those athletes. What was really interesting is when you split the women's and men's races — in the women's top twenty, the shoes are all over the place. Let me run through the women's fastest super shoes at the New York Marathon: Adidas Adizero Pro 4 first, an On Cloudboom second, a Puma Deviate Nitro
[43:08] Elite third, then the old Nike Vaporfly — not the Alphafly — then an Alphafly, another Puma, Adidas, Brooks, Under Armour, Hoka, Brooks, Puma, Nike, and a Salomon S/Lab Phantasm 2 in there too, even a Puma DV. So you can see where I'm going — no consensus at all. When you look at the men though: Nike Alphafly, Adidas, Adidas, Adidas, Nike Alphafly, Nike Alphafly, then in seventh is
[43:38] the first-place finisher in an ASICS. Then back to Adidas, ASICS, then it starts to split a bit — a Brooks, a Nike, a Brooks, and an Altra, which I thought was a trail shoe but is apparently doing a road show too. What do you make of that? Off the back of hearing those two lists, if you were picking, having never run in any of them, what are you grabbing?
[44:11] I'd probably grab a Nike Alphafly, or the Adidas Adios — that's the common sense read for me, on the basis that if the elite runners are our inspiration for what's fastest, that's where I'd go. But why do you think the women's field is so split, with some real outliers in there? Can I throw a half-baked theory at you? Sure. Looking at the men's times, it wasn't the
[44:43] fastest marathon — New York isn't the fastest course — but the winner ran 2:07, and basically the whole top ten was inside 2:10. My guess is those top ten athletes are all fully sponsored. When you look at the women's race, and what the winner in London or Berlin ran — 2:09, but second in New York was 2:17, on a much faster course than New York.
[45:13] So I just wonder — I'd love to know, and this isn't information I have to hand, but I'd guess all of that top ten in the women's race are full-time sponsored athletes too. I'd suggest so. I don't know — does it say something about women having more individual foot shapes, more niche brands working for them?
[45:45] What do we have there — Brooks, and it's interesting to see Hoka in the road scene, they're massive in the tri scene and the trail scene too. This is a science question, whether there's a physiological or biological difference in the return women get out of a carbon plate versus men — I don't know, someone smarter than both of us would have to answer that one. But that
[46:15] really stood out to me, just looking at the data — the men were pretty much all in Nike or Adidas bar a few, and the women couldn't agree on a shoe at all. I saw a great Instagram reel this week from an English run influencer talking about shoes — we love shoe talk here — he'd had a conversation with someone and asked them why they run in Nike.
[46:47] The guy said brand loyalty, and this influencer said, mate, Nike doesn't need your brand loyalty — they sell more shoes than anybody else on the planet. His opinion was there are better shoes out there for the amateur runner, and I think a lot of image-conscious runners buy the big-name shoes because they want to be seen running in them, not necessarily because they're
[47:19] the best shoe for them. When you look at that list, particularly the women's race — I've never run in a Hoka but I'd love to try one, I've heard great things. The On Cloud shoes interest me too — the Cloudboom, weren't they almost a CrossFit shoe when they first came out? No, that's not quite it —
[47:50] they were unique with these little air pockets underneath the shoe, hence the name Clouds, that absorbed impact. They've kept to that tradition but changed it a lot to become more of a normal shoe with the plate and everything now. The On team are actually out of Melbourne — Craig Mottram is the coach of the On run team out of Australasia,
[48:20] or out of the Asia-Pacific region. What did they used to call him — The White Kenyan, that's it, I couldn't remember the nickname, but yeah, an amazing runner, Craig Mottram. It's amazing to see the woman who finished second in New York fitted out in an On Cloudboom, not something you'd necessarily have
[48:50] expected. Well, they've got some real believers — I've spoken to people who genuinely love running in them. I think everyone's got a bit of a different personality — some like to be part of the crowd, running in the Nike or Adidas everyone else wears, and there's a type who wants to stand apart, and that's where you see the smaller shoes
[49:21] get some pick-up. I didn't see a Zoot in there — whereas Tim Vincent, when we talked about his marathon the other day, was running in a Zoot, and that doesn't even come up on either of these top twenty lists. So what it all says is there's a whole range of shoes doing a pretty good job now — everyone's caught up on the technology to a degree, but the bigger brands have had ten years of research on this. There'll be some marketing gimmicks here and there, but the best way to figure it out is going to a shoe shop and trying them on. If you're on your long run right now, look down at your shoe and ask yourself, why did I buy
[49:51] this shoe? Was it the best option for me, or did I think it'd look cool? I'd say about nine out of ten people bought that shoe because it was on sale, marked down at the Nike outlet at Harbour Town or wherever. But isn't that interesting as a talking point — the price on these carbon plate shoes, and whether there's an opportunity in the market
[50:22] for one of these manufacturers to bring a carbon plate shoe in at a hundred dollars less? Well, there is — have you ever heard of Decathlon? Yes — most Australians might not know it, but think of Decathlon like Rebel Sport, except they're genuinely global. In France they're massive — I remember buying my daughter's first bike there when I lived over there, your fishing rod, camping gear, everything. So cross Rebel Sport with BCF and you get
[50:53] Decathlon. There are a few in Australia, and they've brought out their own home-brand range of products, including a carbon-plated shoe — don't quote me on this, but it's around half the price of all the other shoes. I haven't tried it, but now that we've talked about it I'm kind of interested. This would have been last year, but they brought out a cut-price home-brand shoe — the Kiprun KD900X men's running
[51:26] shoe with a carbon plate, at decathlon.com.au, is $180. Less than half price. If anyone's running them, please write in, or grab a pair and let us know — is there anyone out there who's a fan of this shoe? It's a good-looking shoe, looks like any other carbon-plated shoe, but I wonder how it goes. Do you reckon Kiprun's a little nod to Kipchoge? A bit of a naming-rights issue there — I reckon that's pretty close.
[51:57] Hey, quickly — we haven't talked about our run weeks. I've done absolutely bugger all, and this is a story for another day, because according to my watch — or maybe my heart — something's off. Let me ask you this, what was your heart rate at your elite peak? I've never seen mine go above 178, even flat out in a lab, and that was back when I was a kid. 178, right, okay.
[52:27] However, I think part of the reason I was able to operate at a decent level was I could run at 163 beats for a half marathon, a two-hour race — I don't have that luxury anymore, apparently. I didn't know this, but a mate told me after the race on Sunday that the rule of thumb is 220 minus your age. That's the general rule, and it's fairly spot on — more so how each year, your
[52:58] peak heart rate drops a beat or so. Which would put my peak at around 180, right? What do you reckon my heart rate was — going off my wrist watch, not a chest strap, according to my Garmin? I'd say you were in the two hundreds for way too long — 207 for most of the 10K run. That would be very hard, I'd think, especially in
[53:30] Queensland, where we sweat. Get yourself a chest strap — the optical heart rate on your wrist is hit and miss, especially once you get sweat under there. My wife's sending me to the doctor, she's worried, so I've got to get my heart checked — apparently 207 has that effect. Let us know if there's a wrist device out there you trust, they do work better in cooler conditions. But if I want accuracy, I'll always
[54:01] grab a chest strap. But yeah, if you were at 210, mate, they might have needed the defib out there for you. I'm still taking it easy this week because I'm recovering — taking the advice you gave a couple of weeks ago on this podcast, which I've since been passing off as my own, that it's okay to rest. In fact, I had a conversation today with a friend targeting the Gold Coast Marathon next year, who went to a bloke at his gym who's also a run coach, and who's given him basically an eight-month plan
[54:34] that's pared right back. This is a guy who runs okay, a bit like me, but this coach has gone, great, let's pare it right back — the first run on his programme was a 3K. And the other thing the coach has told him is to eat more. My mate was telling me this morning he didn't realise how conscious he'd been about carbs, and now he's eating five hundred grams more carbs a day than he was, and not putting on weight. He feels great.
[55:04] Probably feels great. Anyway, how's your own week been? Pretty good, another 90K week. I said to a few people I've been running like a 2008 FIFA player on the Xbox, and half of them had no idea what I was talking about. All you need to know is I've upgraded to the 2012 model this week — feeling a bit better, but still not quite in this decade yet. But what's been working for me — I did it this morning down at the Spit —
[55:35] was a fartlek session. This morning we decided, literally as we stood there ready to run off, on a Mona fartlek — traditional Mona fartlek, but we added a three-minute build to begin with, a two-minute float before the twenty minutes of Mona fartlek proper. What I'm trying to focus on at the moment is getting my fitness back up to speed as quickly as possible, through the metronome we've talked about before — 180 beats into my ear, with the goal of keeping that
[56:05] 180 steps up, more so through the recoveries. When you run hard, you don't realise, unless you've got something in your ear, how much your stride rate or cadence slows down as soon as you get tired. So my goal this morning was purely keeping that cadence up, and it worked — I floated through it, kept my harder reps a bit more pulled back, but was moving through the efforts a lot better. Everything's moving
[56:35] forward. One thing on races — I've got an early one pencilled in for next year. For the past three years, F1 in Melbourne has clashed with what I think they call kunanyi — I'll probably pronounce that wrong — the big trail race up on Mount Wellington in Tasmania. Salomon put on a golden trail race there over 25K, and then a longer 70K race. It doesn't clash for the first
[57:08] time, so that's one I've wanted to go to for a long time — that's my first race pencilled in. When's that? March-ish, can't remember the exact date, but F1 has moved, giving me the opportunity to go down there and run. That's awesome to hear, because Racing Courtney is the Courtney we want to hear more from. So we'll get you into more of a real structure and a proper crack at it.
[57:40] Well, that might be nice timing, and strap in if you're a trail runner, because I've also earmarked a race — in fact, I've signed up for it. I had to pull out last year after injuring myself two weeks out, and the organisers were gracious enough to defer my entry. Beautiful. So March next year as well, I'll be doing the 50K out-and-back at the Noosa Ultra Trail.
[58:11] Back to the Ultra — I did the 24K race two years ago, but this time I'm locked in for the out-and-back, the 50K course, Noosa Ultra in the middle of March. I've got one tip for you this year — you need to get an apartment or somewhere to sleep. Last time, for those playing along at home, I had to commentate the Brisbane Lions v Melbourne Demons game at the Gabba the night before the Noosa
[58:42] Ultra, and it was the Friday night the lights went out. I had it all planned — clock off, final siren sounds at the Gabba, jump straight in the car, race up there and sleep in the car. And that was the exact night the lights went out at the Gabba, so the game was delayed about half an hour, and the whole plan was cooked.
[59:13] I ended up getting up there late. A woman I worked with was gracious enough to offer her Airbnb — I said no, no, I don't want to impose — and ended up parking in her driveway and sleeping in the car. Anyone out there planning a trail run — just fork out for an apartment, sleeping in your car is not a win. It was horrible, but the Noosa Ultra Trail is still in its infancy, and putting the word Noosa in front of anything
[59:43] draws a crowd automatically, because it's such an amazing part of the world. I think it's got the potential to be a real destination trail run, and I'm excited to get up there and give it a crack — haven't run a 50K in a couple of years now. So you're looking at Noosa, I'm looking at Tassie — where would the audience rather we go? Oh, I'm talking to the audience now — yeah, let's put that up as the Instagram poll this week on the In the Beginning account — Noosa or Tassie, run in the heat or run in the cold.
[01:00:14] Take your pick, we'll find out who wins on next week's episode. That's it, that's us done — you can take it as gospel, Noosa Triathlon chat is in the bank for at least six months, you won't hear us talk about it again. We're all about the run. If anybody out there wants to suggest something, particularly for Courtney Atkinson — if there's stuff you want to hear him talk about, stories, elite-level chat you'd like to hear from him, I know I want more of it — please message us at In the Beginning Podcast on
[01:00:45] Instagram, and again, subscribe on Spotify, share it with your friends, ratings, reviews, comments — it's the best way to help us keep growing this community that's coming together. We love talking running, and we'll be back again next week.