EP 2 - NEGATIVE SPLITTING

[00:00] We're back — Courtney and Liam here, still in the beginning, still without a name for this thing. Work it out. So what have you been doing running this week? What's been going on? Well, it's not a great time to be talking about a run podcast, first thing — I can't run. What do you mean? Let's go back — I know we want to talk each week about what we've done that week, but let's go back two and a half months for the moment, since we're in the beginning. I like hobbies on two wheels.

[00:33] So two and a half months ago, riding a dirt bike, probably doing seventy K an hour, I got jacked off over the handlebars — both knees, shoulders, thirteen X-rays later. I'm clear, but I literally can't run for six weeks. Two and a half months ago. Nothing major, but I absolutely smashed my knees, and when I was on the ground I thought, I'm in trouble. I couldn't get up, couldn't kick the bike over, and I was riding somewhere I shouldn't have been, so no one knew where I was.

[01:09] Did every single thing wrong that you could possibly do. So, fast forward — I got into rehab, got myself running again. Then about three weeks ago I headed out to Uluru — with Red Bull, we took a group of, let's say, content creators out there. That's what they're called these days, isn't it? Not influencers anymore, content creators.

[01:40] Let's call them creators for the moment. We took them out there running — I take a different mob out there each year. We go out to Kings Canyon and have a run; the first day is about a 25K trail. So I've got to get myself right to run, because I'm hosting, I'm the one showing everyone around. I literally did the most aggressive ten-day rehab I've ever done. — What's an aggressive ten-day rehab?

[02:11] Because to me, rehab is rest and some strength work. To put it in context — I hurt my knees, but it referred and I started having calf issues, to the point where I was running with my brother down at The Spit and came to a dead stop. I couldn't run, my calf was actually gone. Probably should have gone and got a scan, but you kind of know what it's going to be to a degree. I had ten days, so literally three days off—

[02:43] — completely rest, a bit of mountain biking because that doesn't seem to aggravate the calf. Then I started with a 5K walk-run: one minute walk, one minute jog, super slow, ideally no pain, but it wasn't great. Next day, just build it up slightly — doesn't matter what standard you are, it's a walk and a jog. People are used to seeing me out on the trails at Nerang, and here I am literally running laps of the velodrome, and people go, 'he's injured.'

[03:14] They know I'm injured, they know. So I'm running around the velodrome. To go through those ten days quickly — there's three things, and this is subjective, this isn't backed by anything clinical. — Did you go to a physio for this, or is this just in your head? — This is in my head. The great thing about being around sport for so long is I've got mates over at the Suns' performance centre, in footy clubs, running with an ER doctor — I've probably got too many opinions half the time.

[03:47] What I came down to is three things that work really well for me. One — for calf recovery specifically — I walk on soft sand. Sounds so simple, sounds crazy, but walking on soft sand, there's no impact, and I actually get the calf working. — I'm picturing what that would feel like on my calves, because I've had calf problems too, and yeah, it makes sense.

[04:17] Subjectively, it just works. There's no pain, and walking on the soft sand, I feel like I'm actually getting strength back into it, because you're forcing the calf to push through and lift, push through and lift — but there's no impact, so you're not getting that drive, you're just slowly integrating it. And it's in the motion of running. Two — pushing a sled. I've got one at home, literally on wheels, a magnetic-style sled.

[04:47] Same idea. I was told once that before you get back to full training — beyond your calf raises and everything else — if you can push the sled through that range of motion, then you know you're ready to go. So I thought, well, I don't know, let's just push the sled the whole time, forget the rest of it. I love the trial and error of it. And then yoga. So those three things are my rehab.

[05:18] And that got me back from a dead stop to running twenty-nine K within ten days — once I got the motion and strength back in, and it was progressive over that time. Now, you've got to remember I've got twenty-five years — not just of running, but of twenty-five hours a week of training behind me. So obviously I'm not recommending or prescribing this, this is just what I go through.

[05:50] Those are the three things that get me back. So — I got out running at Uluru, came back here to Nerang, and fell again running. — I've never seen you fall running, where did this happen? — On one of the trails coming down, clipped a rock and went down like an absolute bag of crap, and of all things, hit the same knee I hurt on the dirt bike.

[06:20] So that pushed me back another few days. I'm sounding like we're starting this on a big whinge — all I want to do is run, it's what makes every day tick for me. — How's your mood when you can't run, is it noticeable? — A hundred percent, the family feels it. Everyone feels it, because the one thing I've realised after twenty years of sport, running and triathlon being my

[06:52] — profession, is that the only reason I got through it that long is I genuinely love the basics of going for a run, especially in the bush. Running in the bush beats everything. So, to finish it off — fell over, same knee, running, missed a few days again, got back up to speed, all going well. Went out this week on school holidays to Hidden Vale Adventure Park with four families, riding mountain bikes and hanging out at the cabins. There's a little trail behind the cabins.

[07:23] You're literally eight K from anything out there on your own — there's this little jump track they've built. First day, first jump, all the kids standing there, I go up in the air — again — the ribs this time. — Because you're not sitting comfortably right now. — I'm struggling to get on and off the chair. So, I'm cooked again. For a run podcast, talking about running, it's a great start.

[07:53] — So what's the return-to-run time looking like at the moment? — I got on the stationary bike this morning trying to get some movement in, but ribs are ribs, you've got to breathe, so there's nothing you can really do for them. I'm hoping to get back jogging next week and then start talking about plans. Other than that, it's school holidays and being back in front of the computer a bit during the day. So, my running's in a really different spot right now.

[08:24] We spoke about it briefly in the first episode, but to kick off — you've just broken ninety. — That's the point, yeah. I turned forty about a month ago now, and I wrote up this 'fit list' for myself, which we're going to keep exploring as we go on. It's a dynamic list, not a fixed set of things — it's going to be with me, I hope, for as long as I'm physically capable of doing stuff.

[08:54] I'm adding things to it — I've got some basic running goals on there. I'd consider myself a good amateur runner. Well, I don't know — you tell me what I am. I've just broken ninety minutes for a half marathon, where does that sit on your running scale? Be honest. — There's people listening to this who run a lot faster, and people listening who run a lot slower — and that's great, just running.

[09:24] I know without even asking you that you're automatically now thinking, I want to break three hours in a marathon. I'd put it into a category — for someone who's into running and can run decently, I think three hours in the marathon is that magical mark. It's the one where you can rock up to work in the morning and say, I ran a marathon.

[09:59] — But did you really run it, or did you kind of walk it? Even with these hundred-K ultras at the moment, people come in and go, 'I ran a hundred K on the weekend,' and I'm thinking, did you really run a hundred K, or how much of that was eating, walking and sitting down having a break? To me, that's the top end of amateur — it's a goal, and the key is you've got to have structure and train properly.

[10:29] A bit of background — on this list I've got a sub-forty-minute 10K, which I've never done. I've got a sub-ninety half, which I've now ticked. A sub-three-hour marathon. And some goals that aren't just running-based too. I also did the Gold Coast Marathon a couple of months ago — got my entry late, hadn't done a proper training block in the lead-up, had about six weeks going in, and ran three twenty-one.

[10:59] Which was a PB — I'd never run that far. And with running, I'm trying to get out of the habit, and I'm sure people will know it, of instantly looking at the time and result and going, I want to go better, I want to go faster — instead of being satisfied with what I've achieved. — That's why you go to trail running. — It's for the ones of us who don't want to know the times anymore. Bit of a joke, but it's also not a joke. — It's true. It's true.

[11:29] You really find out what you're made of on the road. — Exactly. So I hit this sub-ninety, and I'm genuinely proud of it because I trained specifically for it and it paid off. I showed you the splits — even split, actually negative split. I paced it exactly how I wanted and crossed the line feeling brilliant. And when we were talking about it the other day and I showed you the splits, you said, 'I bet at the end you felt like you could have run faster,' and I said, I—

[12:04] — did. And you said, you couldn't have, it's just that you paced it really well. I instantly went, okay. So that's where I was at with running. The next thing on my agenda, fitness-wise, is Noosa Triathlon — so what I'm trying to do is reduce my running to bring more bike riding and swimming into my week, but run more intervals and try to run essentially faster.

[12:34] I want to be running faster than half-marathon pace by the end of Noosa. I went out for a session this morning and tried to put myself through a mile-interval session — 2K warm-up, just jogging, loosening up, then five mile efforts with a two-minute recovery in between. Now, and I guarantee other people do this too — I literally just Googled 'sub-forty-minute 10K' and looked through a bunch of different online programmes, and thought, oh, that's a session.

[13:06] So I punched it into my Garmin and went out to do it that way. I think I've got mental and physical hangovers from the half marathon, because I felt sluggish — got halfway through the third mile, was meant to do five reps, and stopped. — Of course you did. — This is one thing that intrigues me about running at the moment, because we're getting so many fresh people into running and endurance sport.

[13:40] If you really tax yourself — go for a PB, really redline yourself in a half or a marathon — it can take a long time to recover. Take one of the elite marathoners, like Michael Shelley — I used to run a bit with him — he'd take literally two to three weeks off running completely, then come back and rebuild for a marathon six months later, get ready, and he'd only get out two a year.

[14:12] Our best marathoners are really only targeting two, maybe three a year at most, and those are their all-out efforts, so you've really got to think about how much recovery you need. What I find — and I see it days after a half — is that everyone's normalised distance in running and triathlon now. 'Just' an Ironman, 'just' a 50K. But there's a big difference between going out and absolutely bucketing yourself in a race, and just doing it.

[14:44] We'll talk about this more, but there's so much focus these days on just ticking the box on distance when it comes to running. In the end, the real marker is how quick can you do it — running to see how long you can survive doesn't necessarily mean it's better than running shorter but achieving something better or faster over a shorter distance.

[15:14] Everyone's going to have different opinions, but I sit firmly on the side that I find it a lot more appealing — I'd give a lot more kudos to someone who's gone out and cracked their 10K PB than someone who's just gone and made it through a 50K, every day of the week. I'll probably rub a few people up the wrong way with that, but running — if you're going out there to compete, go and compete.

[15:45] I was talking to my wife about this the other day — I know Nedd Brockman from my time in Sydney, he actually lived down the street from me. I know there are people out there critical of Nedd. I love Nedd, I love what he's about, I love his messaging — I just love that Nedd is Nedd. He's unashamedly himself, and he genuinely couldn't care less what people whose opinions don't matter to him are saying about him.

[16:17] He doesn't need me to defend him either. But it's interesting — he did this incredible thing, didn't actually achieve the goal he'd set himself, and now it feels like every second week there's someone trying to run across Australia. That distance-objective thing, this idea of just ticking things off — 'I ran across Australia,' 'I ran the Nullarbor,' 'I ran for twenty-four hours.'

[16:48] It's a strange social development, that as a society we suddenly go, right, we're all running across the country now. — I think I've heard enough podcasts if we start getting onto Nedd Brockman in our second episode. — No, no, we won't even get to a third episode, because it's so polarising. But there's a song by Illy — the rapper, Australian rapper.

[17:18] I don't know the name of it, we'll find it out for a later episode — but the main line is something around marketing, that everything you think you're doing for the first time has always been done before. So apologies if I'm repeating myself, I haven't paraphrased it properly, but you get what I mean — it's hard to come up with new stuff in a world where you've got to continually make content and keep giving people something new.

[17:51] It's all been done before, everyone's just packaging it up differently and reproducing it. I think you're dead right that once someone in any space — running or another sport — does something well, you're going to get people copying it, that's just the nature of it. So, back to where I was with my run — I ended up cutting my session at about five K's, walked for a bit, and then I ended—

[18:26] — up just rolling for a couple of K's at about six-minute pace, because I ultimately wanted to get home faster, so I just jogged it out and kept it light. I've been riding a lot and I don't feel fresh on the run at the moment, not fresh at all. — If it were me feeling sluggish like that, I'd just jog around, keep moving lightly. And if you've run a PB, give it a good two weeks at least.

[18:58] Nothing wrong with that — you've smashed your muscles, take a couple of weeks for sure, don't push it until your body feels up to it. Everyone responds differently — if you've trained specifically for that distance for a year, you might recover quicker than if you only did an eight-week build. And that ties into what we're talking about — content, people running, podcasts and information.

[19:33] I think one of the biggest pieces of misinformation out there is when you Google what session to do. You've got to remember, most of those running sessions come from elite coaches or runners who, one, have got history and background in their legs, and two, are probably running ten to eleven sessions a week. So if you're doing three hard sessions, they're doing three hard sessions too, but jogging easy for the other eight or nine.

[20:05] But if you're someone working full-time, only getting to run once a day, maybe four or five times a week, and you go out and try to emulate those three hard sessions you saw on Google — it's not going to end well. Not going to end well. Since you've opened the door, I'll walk through it — that idea of more information being out there in the running space. We've talked a bit about where I sit, but I've got friends much further back in their running journey who are getting into it.

[20:41] My cousin took on a half marathon with me the other week. I've got a mate I did Red Bull Defiance with a couple of years ago — the adventure race where we first started hanging out — who went from not wanting to run 5K to doing UTA 100K earlier this year. That's incredible, I was blown away he did that. He's all in now, he's about to do the Manly to Bondi to Manly Ultra 80. He loves it. But they come to me as someone who's been running that bit longer, who runs that bit faster.

[21:18] And they come to me asking for training programs. I won't lie, I've given them programs — I've got no qualification to be handing those out. — No, but this is exactly the conversation, because I don't do it wanting people to think I'm a running coach at all. When I've had—

[21:48] — three or four friends ask me. A friend of mine did the Gold Coast Half Marathon last year — just turned forty, said he wanted to run it, asked if I could help with a program. I said I can, but full disclosure, everything I'm about to tell you is regurgitated from people I run with who are better runners than me. I'm essentially taking no responsibility for what happens.

[22:18] The biggest thing I say to them — most of my mates are in their mid-to-late thirties, early forties — is: strength train, you've got to train your legs because you're getting old, and then just run easy. That's about it. But is having all this information out there a good thing? Depends. I think it depends on what your goals are in running and what you're prepared to put into it.

[22:50] If you're adamant that running is everything, I'd always say go to a proven coach, a proven expert. And by proven, I mean — if I were sending someone to get coached, I'd be looking at whether they've coached someone of that ability. There's no use someone who wants to run a five-hour marathon coming to me — I've got no idea what that feels like.

[23:23] I've got no idea what that feels like or what pace they need to run. Anyone can give you a structure, whatever sport you're doing — someone can hand you the world champion's training session. It's how you prescribe that training that matters — the level, how hard you go, the recovery, all of it, not just the structure.

[23:56] That's where the real information is hard to get. I always say: proven expertise. If I want to do something and need help, I'll go to someone who can already do it. So maybe that's where you get that 'hey, I just ran a ninety-minute half, my mates want to run a ninety-minute half, come do what I do' — that could be right or wrong, I'm not sure how it sits. And the only reason — I've never independently called anyone up and said, 'hey, I think—

[24:32] — you should start running, here's a program.' It's these three or four mates who've independently come to me and said, hey, I want to start running, suggest a rough structure — and I'm like, yeah, absolutely. I just want to say yes to anybody who wants to run. I think—

[25:02] — there's no right or wrong answer. If you want to pursue more, you go looking for more expertise, as long as you're comfortable with what you're getting. If someone comes to me and says, I just want to start running, my goal is to get faster at parkrun, I say go and download a 5K training app on your phone, don't even worry about a coach — because initially it's just about consistency in running.

[25:34] The programme itself won't matter that much, that's the key. So the one thing we can agree on is what will make you run faster in the end is consistency over time — the more months you can string together running at a consistent level without getting injured, the better your results. That was my big takeaway from the Gold Coast Marathon, actually.

[26:04] Speaking of run coaches — Adzy Gordon, Adam Gordon, on the Gold Coast, you might know him — an ASICS ambassador, former professional triathlete, incredible guy. He's got a run group I'm part of, and the thing he always says is: if you set yourself a target for any of these races, the single most important thing is getting to the start line uninjured. You're always better underdone than overdone. So, shout out Adzy — I take that and pass it on to my friends who ask about running. If they say they're training for the Bridge to—

[26:40] — Brisbane or whatever, I say, great, just make sure you're not injured by the start line. — You've basically copyrighted that line now. Right, let's pivot — this idea of expertise, since I've mentioned Noosa Triathlon's coming up. How many times did you win it — three? — I think at one stage I was going for three in a row, maybe four in a row. Mate, I told you from the get-go, my memory on results and races is terrible.

[27:14] So what actually sticks in my brain is the interesting things — not the results, even though at the time they mattered, but I remember stuff like jumping something. — You're right, you only won it three times, and you were going for four in a row. You won '08, '09 and 2010. Craig Walton won it in '07, and David Dellow in 2011.

[27:44] So we're presuming you raced 2011 too, you just can't remember. I don't know why I bother asking you anything anymore. But you were '08, '09 and 2010 — has anyone else done that three-in-a-row? — Craig Walton would have done that too, yeah. Look, Noosa, when you talk about events in Australia, outside the Olympics it was probably the biggest at the time — all the runners crossed over into it. Different prize money to what they'd get today, I reckon. Probably not much.

[28:14] Probably just over ten grand or something. Ashleigh Gentle's won nine in a row, ten overall I think — she won 2012, then Emma Moffatt won 2013, and Ashleigh Gentle's won everything since. Crazy. So, we've established I did have some expertise once upon a time. But I was thinking about this the other day — on my fitness-goal list, in a dream world, it's sub-two-twenty at Noosa.

[28:47] — Is that what you call it, the time maths? — I've been calling it Noosa maths, where you naively go, well, if I swim this, ride this and run this, I'll finish in this. Is that how it actually works? — Okay, so fix my Noosa maths for me, because in my head — and I think this'll be my tenth year doing Noosa this year—

[29:22] — that's the way my brain works. Let's start from the beginning — the swim's in the ocean at Noosa now. Does the tide let you run further out, is it low tide, is it quicker? I always say don't try to predict the swim too much, give yourself two minutes either way. You can't take your pool pace and expect it to translate at Noosa — I'd go more off what I've done historically there. Am I swimming a bit quicker?

[29:52] If the tide's running out, the trick at Noosa is you can run out along the point and get a bit of a free ride. When we used to race in the canals behind there, some years the tide would drop right out, and I'd be swimming in the elite race — I was always a decent swimmer, up in the front few — and I'd see guys just running along the bank next to me. I'm a pretty conscientious person, and I hate the idea of people—

[30:24] — cutting the course. It really irked me, watching people run along the bank instead of swimming. I like to do it right. So yeah, the swim, you don't really know either way. The bike, you can pretty much predict, because it's fairly constant — headwind out, headwind back, within reason. And you know you'll get a decent draft at Noosa, there's so many bikes out there.

[30:54] — Hold on, you just said you're a conscientious person who likes to do the right thing, within reason. Well, I'm talking about halfway through the morning when the course is absolutely chockers, isn't it — there's no way the marshals can actually police the drafting, there's too many people. I think the stat at Noosa — don't quote me on this — going back a couple of years, was that 70 to 80% of the field were first-time

[31:26] — triathletes. Noosa's the first triathlon most people ever do, because it's the event everyone wants to go to. So even say half the field don't really care about drafting rules either — you get a few age-groupers who are hell-bent on everything being right, but most people there just want a good day and to complete the course. But you can pinpoint the ride, work it out from training — it's the right distance. The run's the one where I think most people always think they'll go quicker than they actually do.

[31:58] We used to use a guide — say I could run a flat thirty-minute 10K, off the bike in a triathlon it'd be thirty seconds to a minute slower than that. But that's at the elite end. Let's go back to the mid-to-back of the field, where it's getting hot during the day at Noosa — you're probably looking at giving yourself extra time on top of what you're capable of

[32:28] — on top of your fresh 10K time, because that race just eats away at you, especially in the heat. Last year I did a PB — and I'm a bad swimmer, I know that, I'm never banking on huge improvements there. But I'd put in a decent effort in the lead-up on the bike, and — talking about drafting and being conscientious — on the way out of Noosa I found a bloke who was clearly a very strong rider, jumped on his wheel and got a good tow.

[33:04] All the way out to the base of the climb — and he was filthy about it, so unimpressed with what I was doing, and I just shrugged. Anyway, I had a good ride, but it was clearly harder than I'd pushed myself in training, just staying on his wheel. And on the way back in, my legs were gone on the run — I'd spent all my petrol. So my maths went completely out the window.

[33:34] You can't finish the bond, so to speak. But it's going to be different for everyone because everyone's got different strengths — that's the beauty of triathlon, you work on your weaknesses and your strengths. If you look at it as time, I call it the jigsaw puzzle — say the swim's under a quarter of your total time, so even improving two minutes on the swim is a big ask, because you could train the house down in the pool for maybe a small improvement. But if you go and train the house down on the bike—

[34:05] — you're out there for over an hour, so you can suddenly take chunks of five minutes off. Same with the run. It's purely maths on time. I remember this from one of our run chats, recording it for posterity — your game plan off the bike at Noosa. I know this is a bit run-nerd, we won't lean into it too much, but what was your game plan off the bike into the run at—

[34:42] — triathlon? I'd redline off the bike, right to the point I could still bring it back under control. My goal was always to break the race early and then settle into running. Noosa's a bit different, because when I was racing it was the one race a year we weren't allowed to draft, and it was policed a lot heavier — you'd get a bit of a tow, but nothing like the Olympics where you're literally riding around in a group. Back when I was racing, it was always about positioning into the run — I'd train to run out hard and then be able to recover—

[35:21] — enough to slot into around three-minutes-six to three-minutes-seven per K, on bad days dropping off to three-tens, but you've already banked ten to fifteen seconds up your sleeve. It's not the smartest way to run, time-trial-wise, but it comes back to this idea of racing — a race is a race, not a time trial, and it's about how you beat your competitors. With my background in sprint racing, the short, TV-style stuff we've talked about—

[35:54] — the one ability I had for some reason was being able to run instantly fast off the bike — I probably couldn't run a K much faster fresh off the track. I'd actually run quicker straight off the bike initially, then settle into a really good threshold pace. Which brings me to another regurgitated bit of advice I give people — negative splitting. The idea, and Scott Anderson, for those who know him down in Sydney, says this — I don't know how factual it is, but every world record that's

[36:30] — ever been set over any distance has been set negative splitting — running the back half faster than the front half. So hearing you talk about essentially blowing up the first car and dropping bombs early, because mentally you're breaking your rival — I love that. Did you watch the men's triathlon at the Olympics? You saw Hayden do exactly that, that exact race play out. I could see Hayden looked like he had a watch on his wrist.

[37:01] So whether he was watching heart rate or pace, I'm not sure, but I'd assume pacing too. Whatever he was doing, he had a strategy — if I can stick to this, I can break Alex, and that's the way I can beat him, because if I race him straight up, he's going to outkick me at the end. And he got so close. But you've got to stick to your strategy — that's not the smartest way to run a time trial, but that's racing.

[37:36] If you asked him the quickest way to run that 10K, he'd probably say, I'll run out right on pace and even-split it. I was speaking to someone who told me Alex Yee had done a lot of work with Phil Clayton on his swim. And — you talk about running having a moment, I think it's not even just triathlon, I think fitness generally is having a moment.

[38:08] We're going to get into all this — that's on my fit list too, Hyrox. I want to do it next year, because you introduced me to it — we were out for a run in Nerang and you said, have you heard of Hyrox? I said, I've got no idea what you're talking about. And now I feel like it's everywhere, fitness is having a moment. So, if you don't know what Hyrox is, the best way I explain it is think of CrossFit — most people know CrossFit Games and CrossFit, but there's no

[38:38] — technical lifting in it. You could literally walk off the street and go do a Hyrox — eight one-kilometre runs intermixed with eight strength stations, sled push, sled pull, rowing. Eight 1K runs, so there's a lot of running in it. It's this real hybrid space. I want to explore this more when it comes back round on the calendar. I do know Chris Wilcher, who's one of Australia's best Hyrox competitors.

[39:13] And this is a sport that didn't exist five or six years ago. Chris has always been a fit guy, a firefighter, and now he's found this sport that's basically a profession for him — he's competing around the world at these events. To that point about fitness having a moment, I love it. I always say to anyone out there — because it's the best way — if you're struggling for motivation or fitness, pick an event, because there's nothing

[39:45] — like a deadline to get your backside into gear, in any walk of life, work or otherwise. I spent my whole life racing with a marker — whether a four-year Olympic cycle, a world championship, or more recently specific trail runs — but I struggle now with everything else going on in life. I keep myself fit, but I'm looking for what event actually interests me enough to get up for—

[40:18] — it. So yours is a different challenge, because for people closer to my level, it's about finding something to spark that competitive and fitness flame. For you, that flame's almost burnt out from twenty-plus years at it — now you're looking for something that'll actually scare the living daylights out of me again. Exactly, honestly, that's what I'm looking for. The way I look at events now, it's got to be an epic location, got to have something different, or it's got to have some element

[40:55] — that gives me adrenaline. That's just opened up another door — we don't have time to walk through it today, but fitness tourism is a whole other world now. It probably existed to an extent before, but it feels like every incredible location is now going, we should host an event that people can travel from around the world to compete in.

[41:25] There's a whole tourism industry around fitness now. You've always had those meditation-and-relaxation camps, but now Bali's got these runs — I can't remember the name of it, but Benny Seymour's competed in a couple of them over there. It's clearly having a moment, fitness is having a moment. What I love about it too — we're sitting here talking about the big events, but a lot of the run clubs going on at the moment, you're

[42:02] — hearing about all the dating stuff going on with run clubs down in Sydney and the younger crews, that's how they're meeting. Just seeing people out and about doing that is driving everything at the moment. We don't have time to get into the whole thing — you and I have had conversations on our runs about screens and social media — but I think, if you're running... I want to have a conversation about running with music versus running without

[42:32] — music, another date. But let's pivot a bit — shoes. What's in your rotation right now really interests me. Time for some kit talk. I think I'm going to have to raise my game here. — Really? Yeah, really. So tell me — okay, let's get into what's in the rotation. — History-wise, for no other reason than a few mates being ASICS ambassadors who'd occasionally throw me a pair,

[43:06] I've been an ASICS runner. I've run in the ASICS Nova Blasts, I've had the Meta Speeds, and I had a pair of GlideRides that I really liked. For the speed and type of running I was doing, those three shoes got me through everything from a general five-minute-pace 10K roll to a quick 5K — they did the job.

[43:40] — And they were free! — Well, a couple of them were, not all. But I also genuinely liked the shoes. I burnt through my originals, so I went and bought a pair of the Nova Blast myself, that's what I ran in this morning. But interestingly, because my Meta Speeds died, I started looking at carbon shoes — and geez, they're expensive.

[44:11] Carbon plate shoes, it's true, are just over three hundred bucks — a lot of money for me to spend on a shoe that really only lasts you a race or two. Exactly. I didn't really have the budget, but someone suggested the Adidas Bostons — Twelves, I think. I bought a pair. This is how I shop for shoes — I jump online, Google the shoe I want plus 'sale.'

[44:42] I'm not loyal to any outlet — give me the cheapest version, I don't care about colourway for the most part. So I bought the Bostons, and that's what I ran the half marathon in. I love them. I loved running in that shoe so much that when I went out in the Nova Blast this morning, I hated it. — Well, that's what I was going to ask you — so you've found the Adidas — whatever people call them—

[45:12] — do you now start exploring their whole range? Are you brand loyal across the board, or happy to have a different training shoe and a different race shoe? — I would always have said I was brand loyal to ASICS, I don't know why. But honestly, in the last three or four months my whole take on running shoes has genuinely changed, because I got the Boston Twelves.

[45:43] For the sake of transparency, I bought a pair of the Boston Twelves and I love running in them. Actually, this is the second time I've heard about that shoe today — I was on a call this morning and someone said they'd run a marathon in the same shoe. They do have a carbon plate in them, I didn't even know that. I didn't find them too taxing on my feet, there's a firmness to them I really enjoy. Great running shoe.

[46:14] When I went for a run in the Nova Blast this morning, I found it really comfy — probably because there's no plate, just that high-density foam. I felt like I could dunk in them, they felt like jumping on a mattress, but running forward, they felt heavy on my legs. That's probably partly my legs too, but they felt heavy rather than responsive.

[46:44] I do have a free shoe in my wardrobe too, which I'll disclose — through he who must not be named, Nedd Brockman — a pair of Puma Nitros. Ever run in those? — No. — I'd describe it like this: if the Adidas Bostons are a short board out in the ocean, the Puma Nitros are a long malibu. Really stable, actually much firmer than the Nova Blast, but

[47:17] — I wouldn't want to turn a corner quickly in them. It's like the Pasha Bulker, the ship that ran aground off Newcastle — takes a while to turn around. So that's my wardrobe at the moment, I'm rolling with three different brands. And right now, I'd probably say ASICS is my least favourite of the three — Adidas Boston Twelves, then Puma Nitros, then the Nova Blast. With where my feet and body are at right now, I'm just not enjoying the cushiness.

[47:50] That's interesting — because I've been having these self-inflicted accidents with my body, I can't settle on a shoe. Every time I come back through rehab, my body wants something different. I've got a full range of Salomon shoes — I'll find one that works and feels good, then I'll switch to another. Honestly, I couldn't tell you my preferred three right now, it changes all the time.

[48:20] What I have been running a lot in lately are the heavier, more built-up soft trainers — like the Ultra Glide trail shoe, quite thick. I'd never normally run in that, but it's suiting me at the moment while I'm coming back. Same on the road, the Ultra Glide, a big thick built-up shoe — that's getting me through right now. Once I'm back racing, it's a whole different story.

[48:52] I'll leave the thick shoes behind and go back to wanting that trail feel when I'm racing or training fast on the trail — trying to find that happy medium. What I do, when I'm actually running low on shoes, is think, right, I need a shoe today, and put an order in — but I like to try competitor brands too. Because if you don't know what's out there, how do you know what you're actually getting?

[49:29] How do I know I'm getting the right shoe, whether it's still up to scratch and everything else? So especially on the road, training along the beaches here on easy runs, I do run in other brands, always keeping an inkling of what I like and don't like. Sometimes someone will hand me a pair, sometimes I'll buy one. We should try and get the

[50:03] — same pair of shoes, do the same session, and come back with our thoughts. It's funny — going back to my days playing football, I always found Nike a very narrow fit. I've got wide feet, and I always thought I couldn't play football in them. So I used to wear ASICS — for anyone who played footy, ASICS had almost a runner-style football boot.

[50:34] I wore those because they fit my broader foot. I was talking to someone the other day who'd bought a pair of the Nike Alphaflys, and I said, yeah, I can't, my feet don't fit Nike. He said, what do you mean, I've got a super broad foot and the pair I bought is fine. It's just in my head, Nike's always been a narrow-fitting shoe — but it varies by model, same as with any brand. I actually started out, way back, in Reebok.

[51:07] Started in Reebok, then spent six years with New Balance Japan — this was back when, unlike everything built-up today, it was all about running in a glove. You wanted the lightest, thinnest sole possible, and that's what we'd race in, while still training in heavier build-up trainers. I'll bring in and show you one day, I think it was my 2008 Olympics—

[51:37] — New Balance shoe, compared to what's in the range now. Nine US, which is a forty-two. — We're the same size shoe, I think you're half a size up, forty-three. Nine US is a good size because all the samples come in nines — everyone makes samples in nines, so it's always been handy. Anyway, I went through New Balance, ran for New Balance Japan for ages.

[52:08] Always had a soft spot for Nike too, won't lie — they used to help me out through Brisbane when I didn't have a contract. Never run in a pair of ASICS in my whole life. Then I moved into trail, and my first proper adventure race, I went over to New Zealand to do the Coast to Coast. My mentor at the time, one of the best adventure racers in the world, Rich Usher, was running the race, and Kathmandu were sponsoring it—

[52:39] — and they had Salomon. He said, grab these, they're the best on the rocks, just wear them. So I bought a pair of Salomons, and — I'm laughing because in my head you're the anti-running-influencer, in the sense that every running content creator has absolutely run a marathon, absolutely run in carbon plate shoes, and worn ASICS for the most part, because that seems to be the shoe of choice for the running influencer.

[53:21] And you haven't done any of those three! — No. Salomon have branched out into road shoes too, and I've got a pair of — no, not the Pulse, the Phantasm, that's the one — a carbon-plated Phantasm sitting in the box at home. I was going to run City2Surf in them. — Did you run City2Surf this year? — Oh, that's right, they're still sitting there. I did jog through City2Surf and check it all out, it'd been about a decade since I'd been there.

[53:55] It's a brilliant race, I'm already excited to do this show around City2Surf next year, it's a great event. This year, I reckon I was about halfway back in the field. I've got video — I was standing up on the second level of Bondi Pavilion filming people coming up to the finish line, and you couldn't even get near the finish line.

[54:26] There were just that many people trying to cross at once — which, if I was running back there wanting to break a time and then had to walk the last hundred metres because of the crowd, would honestly piss me off. This is all part of saying running's having a moment — and it is, in a good way, but it's also presenting a host of problems we might have to talk about one at a time.

[54:56] Participation rates are skyrocketing, which is great, but it's creating problems — cost, for one. Because of the popularity, entry costs are skyrocketing, and these once-everyone-welcome events are turning into things only the wealthy can really afford, especially once travel's involved. The cost of shoes is scary too. There are great parts to this moment, but there are real side effects, and I think if

[55:35] — you're involved in the running and fitness scene, it'd be negligent not to think about it. But at the most basic level, most people have got a pair of sneakers, a gym shoe, and you can rock down to parkrun on the weekend and try to improve your 5K time. Parkrun's amazing — I said to someone the other day, without having done the research, that I reckon parkrun might be one of the greatest inventions of the last three decades in the world.

[56:09] That's a big call — you're deep in the running bubble. But there's been incredible technological advancement in various things, great for fitness. But it also killed off the standalone 5K run event, think about it — do we still need a dedicated 5K road race? I'm not complaining, I think parkrun's brilliant, but it did kill off 5K road run events, which used to be a thing.

[56:43] I think Noosa might be one of the only 5K run events left — who won it last year, Jack Rayner? I think that's about the only proper 5K run event now, maybe a couple of elite ones. But look, parkrun's something else — the other day I did the Yamba parkrun, camping down there with the family. Came sixth, ran nineteen forty-nine, which for me is great, anything under twenty and I'm stoked. And that was only five days after the half marathon.

[57:16] I found out afterwards — I'm still fit, still knackered — but I got dusted in the finishing chute by two locals. The woman who won the Yamba parkrun was a genuinely good runner, would've run sub-eighteen comfortably I'd have thought. There were two people there doing what's called the Alphabet — do you know about the Alphabet parkrun? Where you go through the alphabet and do a parkrun starting with every letter. So K might be Kirra, and Yamba's probably one of the only Y parkruns in the country.

[57:49] So what's the X one? I don't know, we'll look into it next week. Let's explore that more, because I genuinely believe — I'll do some research, dig up some stats — but I think parkrun is under-celebrated for the impact it's had globally. It's been incredible. Can we agree on that? — Not much we'll agree on, but we can agree on that. Alright, let's wrap it up, this is about the length we're aiming for, I reckon. What do you reckon, moving forward, about an hour?

[58:21] Now's a good time, about the length of a long run. We'll leave the exact time up to you all — this is what we think's a good length, we'll find out what you think. But what we want to do consistently now is hit you at the top with what our week's looked like from a running and fitness perspective. Not just running — once you get into the fit list a bit more, your whole week, you know.

[58:51] Sometimes when we get together and chat, our weeks are busy, running's hard to fit in, and I think a lot of people out there are the same. My goal is to run every morning to keep myself fit, so when an event comes up I can dial it up and get into proper training — at least once a day, but sometimes things come up. So that's what we're going to do, keep you posted on what we've done running and fitness-wise, how it's fit into our week.

[59:25] That's a good point actually, because we want to start unpacking a bit more of what our week looks like, week to week, and we want to start hitting you with a bit of product chat at the end too — I think the reality is, if you're into running, gear's part of it, people like knowing what's out there. Alright, there we go. We're done again.