Your AI Coach Doesn't Actually Know You | EP 99

[00:00] In the beginning, episode ninety-nine. Courtney Atkinson, how are you? I'm good, Liam Flanagan, and let's just jump straight into this — I've got a good idea, a million-dollar idea. A running clothing brand has a drop, and depending on how fast your 5K or marathon time is, that determines what you can buy. It's almost like a video game where you see a certain skin or outfit on a person and think, wait, they're fast. You'd have to submit your Strava time or something. Strava, we could work on this, man.

[00:31] Pick a brand, we could work with it, you know what I mean? So you see somebody at the 5K wearing the elite-tier 5K time shirt and you're like, my god, they're cooking. Or you see somebody in public with such a niche shirt you think, they must have run a marathon, because they've got that shirt. I'm onto something here. Yeah, love it. "Don't Go Boring" is the Instagram account these reels come from — love it, love it, absolutely. And there's that analogy to the video game, where you have to upskill to unlock the skin.

[01:06] Yeah, there's a lot of ideas out there in running at the moment, and a lot where you just go, that's another one — just another gamified idea. But this is where I draw the line: there's a difference between a gimmick and a concept. There we go — gimmick versus concept. Real fine line.

[01:36] But this is definitely a concept — I'd buy in. I'll give you a couple of examples people might know, not from running but from the content space. Hot Ones is a concept, not just a gimmick. Yeah, I'm guessing Hot Ones — the YouTube interview series where they eat hot wings that get progressively spicier. The reason I think it's a concept rather than a gimmick is that the format informs the style of the interview.

[02:11] Right — as the wings get hotter, the guest forgets they're being interviewed. These celebrities who are so media-trained, so polished on camera, have that veil built up over the years fall away because of the environment they've been placed in. And because the host is going through it with them, there's a sympathetic element going back and forth. That's why it's more than a gimmick — it's a concept. The other one going around at the moment is Subway Takes.

[02:42] Subway Takes, for anyone who hasn't seen it — I forget the guy's name — he sits on a subway in New York and just asks, "What's your take?" Someone gives one take, and he either a hundred percent agrees or a hundred percent disagrees. This one's closer to a gimmick, but what he's done is make it short-form — it doesn't redirect to anything else, it's purely a short, digestible thing, and they pre-vet all the takes to make sure they're unique and can actually lead somewhere conversationally.

[03:14] So it's more of a concept than a gimmick. And I think if you can create a concept — a gimmick is short, a gimmick is a sugar hit, a concept has longevity and life. Something like this fashion line idea becomes aspirational too. If you're a runner — let's use Nike, for lack of a better example.

[03:45] If Nike brought out an earned, time-based range — you earn these stripes, whatever it is — and there was a sub-three-hour marathon uniform, a sub-three drop, that's all that's in my head right now. I'm wanting to earn that. As we've talked through it, that line between a gimmick and a concept is different for everyone, because it depends on your personality, your nature. Yeah, that's a given.

[04:17] I get it, there's going to be people saying, yeah, but then we're just catering to the elite, we're literally putting people on a pedestal — and we talk a lot on this show about how there are all different types of runners out there. I agree with that. What I really like about this is the nature of something being exclusive. I don't really care whether it's elite-exclusive or exclusive to any group, but I love the idea that you've got to earn the exclusivity.

[04:47] It's not like a lottery, it's not a ballot, it's not first-in-best-dressed. This is, for once, actually go out and earn something — and don't cheat it with Strava shenanigans. There's also an opt-in factor to this, right? Because it's not as though — let's stay with Nike — Nike aren't going to put out a crap product, even for the entry-level time drop.

[05:20] Even for the slowest runners, it's still going to be a cool top. But then it starts to get into the runners' heads — they think, okay, I've got this cool base-level design that Nike's dropped, but that next level up is a different, cooler design. It becomes identity — it's not showing off exactly, but it's already part of track and field and road running to a degree, where — and now I'm talking more at the elite level and that inclusion — if you

[05:56] make the cut to a certain level with that brand, you get that year's uniform. You'll see all the same runners from the same brand out there in the same kit, and it's only the properly contracted runners getting that kit — you've got to reach that level, and that's the aspiration. It already exists in elite team sport too — look at the World Cup uniforms we've just watched, the stars on the emblem of the country represent how many World Cups they've won.

[06:28] The stars on the crest of each nation represent how many times they've won the World Cup — England only has one star on their uniform because they've only ever won it once. Let's see which brand jumps on that one. That's a good one, I like it. Now, we've got one for you, Liam, because it's been a big weekend for you — have a listen. This is from Brody Gilbert: "Morning, morning, loggy, listen to the pod — congrats on the commentating position for City to Surf, mate, well done, legend."

[07:09] That was it. Do you know why I played it? One, people are genuinely stoked you're out there on TV, Liam. But I was also just impressed with the audio — hear the footsteps? That was like a metronome, that's what jumped out to me listening. Brody's got a beautiful cadence. Hey, let's play that again a bit — can we hear a bit more of Brody's running cadence?

[07:40] "Hey lads, morning" — a little bit of dirt underfoot. That was trail-running ASMR. Exactly, that's why when I heard it I thought, okay, let's play this. Anyone sending audio in, this is now the level we're expecting. Speaking of the man himself — "And welcome to Sydney, and welcome to the 2026 Voltaren City to Surf, back on your screens for the first time since 2019."

[08:16] "My name is Liam Flanagan, and alongside me, Tammy Barker, we are —" Listen to that. That's not a radio voice anymore, that's a TV voice. Yeah, that's the first time I've heard that. I was absolutely shitting myself before that got underway — I'd never done anything like that before. But even if I never do anything more with TV again, I'm so glad that, A, I got to experience it once, and B, I got to

[08:49] do it in the same way that Andy Buchanan — who I'm sure we're going to talk about in a sec — now gets to finish up running, whenever he does, as a City to Surf winner, I'll get to finish up my media career having hosted the City to Surf. That's left me with a permanent smile. Last question: what makes you more nervous about being on TV than radio? You do radio every morning — does a camera change that?

[09:19] Yep — reps, familiarity, environment. I've been in a radio studio in one way or another for fifteen years, it's home, it's a warm pair of slippers. I'd never stood in front of a bunch of cameras and monitors like that on a TV set outdoors, with a co-host standing next to me the way Tammy was. I'd never done it before.

[09:49] I guess, to bring it back to running like we try to do, it's like standing on your first Parkrun start line — you don't know what to expect. You know how to run, but you don't know what to expect from that specific environment. Let me take a moment on Tammy Barker — if you've ever raced an Ironman anywhere around Australia, or a half, or a 70.3, you may have come across Tammy. I didn't know Tammy before this.

[10:20] Tammy listens to this podcast, and she reached out to me at the beginning of the year about this potentially happening. In our game of media, you can often meet people who — it can be a very selfish industry. I've been so lucky, and I hope I'm perceived this way too, to have met so many people who are generous, who don't want to make it all about themselves being the hero. Tammy is one of those people. She was so easy to work with, such a pro, so classy, and she's got such a nice warm tone in the way she speaks.

[10:58] She knows her stuff too — I'm just trying to think how and where we crossed paths, but I think she said she helped launch Cairns Ironman back before it was an Ironman product, and she used to be the elite athlete manager. I think that's how she knew me. And now she does breakfast radio up in Cairns for the same company as me. Getting to work with Tammy was brilliant.

[11:30] Maddie Abel was on the specials too — Sydney runners will know Maddie. The whole experience was awesome, though I was nervous, I didn't sleep great the night before, just a bit anxious about it all. But the biggest thank you needs to go to Andy Buchanan. It must have been great going into it knowing you'd be commentating or hosting, and then talking about a guy who you've had on the show and spoken to — he feels like a mate to you now. I know, I know.

[12:03] For example, this weekend, when people might be listening to this, I've got to commentate the Q-Clash for Triple M footy. I've been calling Lions and Suns for the better part of four and a half years, every weekend during footy season, and even before that, when I was down in Sydney, I still did some of their games. I could roll into today's call with no preparation and still do it, because I've been calling these teams and players for four and a half years — I know them, I know their backstories, I know when they were drafted, I know where they play, I know all that stuff.

[12:34] Running, I know bits, but I don't have that intimate knowledge. So I did a lot of preparation on guys like Ed Goddard and Thomas Do Canto in the men's field — Luke Hinz, Drew Fryer, guys I'm across now but who aren't big-name athletes. And in the women's draw, Holly Campbell, who won the race — I didn't know a thing about her a week ago. Then Andy Buchanan turned up — not only turned up on the start line for the second time —

[13:04] he'd run it once before, at 18 years of age — turned up and ran about 48 minutes as an 18-year-old. This was only the second time he's ever run it, and he put his hand up late to the race about coming in. I bumped into him at the hotel, we were staying in the same one. I said to him — because he's training for the Sydney major — "How are we going to go tomorrow?"

[13:34] "What are we doing?" He said, "Yeah, I'm going to give it a nudge." I said, "But are you going to try and win it?" Because for the commentary I wanted to know. He said, "Don't worry, you're going to be saying my name a bit." That was brilliant for me because I had all these backstories. I'd bumped into him after the Gold Coast weekend too, saw him in the lifts, said, "Mate, how are you?" He said, "Not great — I didn't defend my title, I lost my national marathon record, get me out of this joint."

[14:05] So I had all that backstory for the commentary. The bit I love is I got a message from him the day after — during the commentary I'd dropped in a little bit about his mum and dad, remember he told us this? He grew up getting dragged around to road races as holidays — that little bit of insight, I drew out into a five-minute segment.

[14:35] And then on Monday he sent me a message saying I'm forever in the good books now, because his mum had messaged him saying the commentating guys were talking him up, even mentioned mum and dad. So I'm in the good books with the Buchanans, which is great. But he also ran brilliantly, 25 seconds shy of the Monaghetti record — he looked so good, 25 seconds off Mona's record.

[15:05] I'd said this in the commentary — that's some of the scripting you prepare for the day. I'd prepped that part: if Andy wins, what am I going to say? I thought about it and hit the Gold Coast stuff, what he's already done this year, but I also included that the winners of this race are legends of Australian distance running — Monaghetti, De Castella, Mottram, and more recently the marathon kings, Liam Adams, Lee Troop, guys like that. I was having this discussion with the crew — I was out with Gold Coast Run Co this morning.

[15:36] having this discussion with a few of the crew — it's interesting, because I see City to Surf as the Noosa Triathlon of Australian running. It's the run event where the actual winner matters, because we say a lot about marathons that how many people actually know who wins that weekend? But with City to Surf, it's got large participation and great history, and that history is what makes people want to know who wins.

[16:06] We know who's won in the past, and it's live on TV, it's in the newspapers — over the years it's been sponsored by the Sun-Herald. It's one of those traditional events where, if you win it, I think in Australia, commercially, as an elite runner, it's probably better than anything else you can do. Yes, from a commercial standpoint. Absolutely. And I mentioned Michael Shelley too.

[16:36] It's the same in the women's racing — Lisa Ondieki, Kerryn McCann — of course they'd rather be winning Olympic or Commonwealth medals, of course. But as far as Australia goes, I'll say City to Surf is probably the most important running event to win, right up to retiring as a City to Surf winner from your professional running career. The idea that Mona still holds the record adds to that a hundred percent.

[17:07] It becomes a bit mythical almost — that record is thirty-five years old now. Did you have any stats on it being equalled at some stage? It's never been equalled, according to my research. Mona set it in '91; before that, De Castella held it for ten years. The closest anyone's got — I feel like Deek might have the next-best time, but I'm not sure. You've probably got the City to Surf fastest times.

[17:39] I don't want to say the name until I'm sure — okay, here it is. Harry Summers, in 2019 — the story I've heard is the official time was forty-five versus forty-three, so he was two seconds officially off the record. He crossed the line in forty-five, but forty-three was recorded elsewhere. The record's 40:03.

[18:11] That's the story I heard — this is secondhand information, but that's what I heard today. We were wondering whether they just added two seconds to keep the myth alive, because it helps the event. Over the years the course has changed, of course, you're racing a different race. But I think it's that nostalgia that makes this such a great event, and Mona still being the record holder adds to that.

[18:42] He finished twenty-five seconds shy of it — 40:29, I think, is what he ran. I spoke to him and asked, did he know? Because when he crested Heartbreak Hill he was under record pace. He said he had no idea — people were cheering at him to chase the record, and he was like, I don't know where that puts me. But he wasn't really racing the record. He said his focus right now is the Sydney Marathon, and this was a great training effort that happened to result in him winning the race.

[19:21] Just before I move on — for runners of my era, Susie Power was a gun, absolutely. I was a bit younger, but I remember her racing around the track, an Olympian, she was a gun. Holly Campbell, who won the race, that was her first race in the elite field. This is where being prepared with stuff to talk about matters — it's what I watch Bruce, Tamsyn, Richard and those guys do, and Dave Culbert too — the background knowledge

[20:00] intertwined with expert knowledge is what makes their stuff so watchable. The great story that emerged for me with Holly, doing my research, is that her twin sister Paige — they're both 30 — came second in 2024. So suddenly there's a narrative here, because Holly was picked as one of the potential leaders. Eloise Wellings had an incredible run, she was sixth at the top of Heartbreak Hill and finished second, just burnt it downhill. But with Holly, it becomes, okay, is this a race against her twin sister?

[20:31] Because she was out in front the whole time, never challenged, so it becomes — she's not going to break the record, but she's going to win the race, so can she beat her sister's time? Those are the little things you start to play with. It was a brilliant weekend, still ninety thousand people, it's an epic race. We had a message — Lauren Burke was on the start line for us, observing shoes. Did you notice the shoes out there?

[21:03] No, mostly my back was to the field. I did notice it's an Adidas event, so I've got a nice new pair of Adizero Adios Pros. But I was paying attention mostly elsewhere, I didn't notice the shoes. What did Lauren see? She said she was towards the front third of the green group. Hey, you're the commentator, what was the green group?

[21:34] They were literally colour-coded waves — yellow wave, purple wave, and I think green might have been the second wave, so kind of front-to-mid-pack. But she took note across the whole course, being an Adidas-sponsored event. Sorry, let me read this properly — green group, majority of shoes were either Adidas or Asics. Her theory is that City to Surf is Adidas-sponsored, and Asics has the Sydney Marathon coming up.

[22:07] True, whether that's skewing it I don't know, in the mass pack. Interestingly, just quickly on the Sydney Marathon, to put a pin on Andy's stuff — that's what he's training for. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing this, but I asked him how it's all going, what his goals are. He reckons that in the elite men's field as it stands, his PB would have him probably 20th. Wow. That's how good the field is — you're talking about the national marathon record holder up until three or four months ago.

[22:37] But his goal is first Aussie — thirty thousand dollars on the line for first Australian across the line in the marathon. It must be the national championship — thirty grand on the line, a local purse to make sure the major in Australia attracts the best Australian runners. He'll be a red-hot crack at it because Hatsu's not running it, and Brett Robinson's not running it either. Tim Vincent is running it though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[23:07] Being down there for Sydney reminded me too — I went for a little run one morning and thought, yeah, this is going to be a great marathon. Hey mate, I'm being attacked. Good, because normally that's me. Well, I'm going to put some of the blame on you — we've spent a few weeks now debating the fittest person in the world. This is the last week we're touching on it, because some of my peers — I'm not going to name who — some of my peers in elite sport,

[23:45] they're not really having a go at me, but saying I've got to stand up for the elite athletes — basically saying I've got my head up my ass. What are they saying? We've got — who's this, Drew Williams? No, from my side, what they're saying is the comparisons we're making are ridiculous, like comparing Tour de France riders to other endurance sports —

[24:21] and other endurance sports. Well, that's the point of the debate, but I'm going to stand by what I said — if you're talking about the fittest people in the world, the pinnacle of human evolution in terms of how fast you can go over endurance, that's the point. What's come through really strongly — Drew Williams sent this through, and a few others too — there's a lot of love for decathletes. We didn't bring up decathlon athletes at all. If you're going to bring in CrossFitters and Hyrox, you forgot about the old traditional

[24:57] true elite athletes on the decathlon side. So here's one, if you're riding or running along — here's one to really do your head in this week. World Hyrox champion versus world decathlon champion — head to head, who's fitter? We're still talking about the debate on who's the fittest, because this is what we've had — a lot of people siding with CrossFitters.

[25:32] I've had a few more messages about Ross Edgley too — the longer this goes, the more I'm starting to feel better about that comment. Let me take it back a step. Kevin Mayer is the current decathlon world record holder. Let's just walk through it — starting with Hyrox, we know the running elements are eight one-kilometre stretches, right?

[26:02] Here are the stations they do: ski erg, a lot of lifting and pushing, sled push, sled pull, burpee broad jumps, rowing, farmer's carry, sandbag lunges, and wall balls. On the other side, decathlon: hundred-metre dash, top-end speed, they'd win over the Hyrox athlete. Fifteen hundred to finish, so they're probably winning on the longer endurance side too. Well, they definitely don't run as fast as a Hyroxer.

[26:35] They're probably more like a — no, I think they're more like a CrossFitter, a heavier-set guy. The odd one will run quick, but they're generally heavier-set, more power-based. Have you ever watched a decathlon at the Olympics? Think about the fifteen hundred — they're spread out, different sizes. Long jump, I reckon they'll beat the Hyrox athletes. Shot put, they'll beat the Hyrox guys. High jump, they'll probably beat them. Discus, pole vault, javelin —

[27:06] so it's probably only the fifteen hundred metre run where it's close. It's a debate with no real answer. However — skill and strength. Still skill, strength and speed. Would you agree decathlon takes a lot more skill? There's a lot more skill involved, on top of the fitness level. Undeniable. The reason we brought it up is a fair few people wrote in about it.

[27:38] Decathlon's a bloody hard, well-rounded thing, with the speed and the endurance to run the fifteen hundred at the back end. That's why Hyrox was created the way it was, because the strength elements are non-technical — there's no real skill to it. It's like playing tennis without a court or a net, you don't have to hit it over anything or into a specific area, you can just hit it wherever. Fair enough. Yeah, I agree, that's just some feedback for everyone.

[28:09] Thank you. I'll probably do a Hyrox next year, it's on the cards. Does this make you feel any better about doing one? This is from the Hyrox founder — it definitely has nothing to do with "hybrid rocks." Maybe we can solve that naming debate once and for all. So, the true honest answer: we called it Qrox because — I didn't take Latin at school, but apparently "curare" or "cure" means something like healing, running, that kind of thing.

[28:40] So we called it Qrox, then we got sued five days before the first event. Here's the real reason it's called Hyrox — they took about twelve letters, ran a legal test on what would work, and Hyrox came out with the highest chance of not getting sued again. Honestly, they may as well have gone with "Hybrid Rockstar." That was from a podcast with the Hyrox guy — he's ruined one of the great falsehoods in world fitness.

[29:13] What a spoilsport. I like Hyrox even less now — at least I respected it when it was "Hybrid Rockstar." Now it's just a legal workaround. Hey, can I throw something at you? You can. Because I've stumbled across something, and as I hit you with this, I know you're either going to get a smug look on your face or get frustrated, because you're going to be saying "I told you so." No hate, no hate. Why?

[29:43] I came across an article from RunningCru.com — another trade industry magazine talking about running. The title is "Quiet Grit: Why Trail Running's $20 Billion Surge Is Only Getting Started." This is analysing the American market, so it doesn't apply directly to Australia, but the byline reads: "When medal photos started looking the same, a lot of runners went looking for something harder to

[30:14] photograph." Trail running is now a $20 billion market, up 231% over the past decade, with roughly 15 million participants. I read through the article, here are some takeaways: 66% of trail runners — again, this is America — earn more than $100,000 annually. This article's breaking down what trail running is in America from a marketing and branding perspective, and where the industry's moving.

[30:45] So two-thirds of everybody who runs trails in America has an annual income over $100,000. Strava trail-running uploads have doubled over the last three years. Gen Z women are the biggest growth segment in that market — 600% growth. I believe that, especially in Europe, and America's probably similar. I'll stop there for a second, because there's more from an equipment perspective. And trail running — here in Australia, we inherently lag.

[31:18] There's a time lag around trends and booms here. This has been since 2010, mind you — a fifteen-year trend they've been mapping, which means we're already in it, you can see it to some extent. But in the same way the boom of road running, marathons, all that stuff really caught fire here over the last three years or so, you'd expect the trail boom to really hit mainstream running here in the next couple of years.

[31:48] Yeah, definitely — my own experience, because I was on road and triathlon the whole time, and when I finished up with triathlon, I walked straight into that trail space. When I first went there, to give you a lay of the land, around 2016, the Coast to Coast adventure race in New Zealand had nearly collapsed, didn't

[32:19] have a sponsor. It was literally revived by pumping money into it, and within two or three years it sold out, it's now balloted every year. But that was 2016. I was nearly going to say I think COVID was what really set the outdoor world alight, but I actually believe it was prior to that. I saw the trail boom starting when I first got into it, and it probably wasn't by mistake either.

[32:49] that I went that direction initially. I left triathlon and went straight in — I obviously had a love for it, but I also got to grow with the sport for those first five or six years, riding the very early wave of it. Then when COVID hit, that outdoor space was already booming. The running space was there, but I don't think it had the acceleration trail already had — I'm calling it "outdoor" because I think

[33:19] when you talk trail, you've got to include hiking, adventure sports, that whole space. Then after COVID, obviously the boom of road running happened, but that had to do with access — it was the one thing you could go and do during COVID, get out and have a run. So this is maybe the tail end of what was actually a steady increase in trail already happening — people were finding their love for it, and of course COVID accelerated it. But what you're now seeing is those who found their love of road running through that period

[33:52] but it was never their core thing — they've gotten to a point of, okay, I've done the marathon, I've done the half, I'm kind of through it, what's next? I also believe triathlon's getting a bit of that trickle-down too, and that's where I think all this is coming from — people going, okay, I've done that now, I'm three or four years in, whatever it is,

[34:22] and starting to think, okay, I've kind of done all that, what can I do now? And there's this shiny thing — not new, but shiny to them — in trail, with more equipment, more things to talk about, all the extras that make this kind of exercise exciting for people. I agree — when I say there's a lag effect, it's probably not that we're directly following, because to your point, I wasn't in on the trail

[34:53] wave like you were, but in the short time I've been around it, I'm seeing more and more of it. To go back to that comment about Gen Z women — I got a firsthand example from a friend while I was down in Sydney. His wife has done Noosa a couple of times, we'll be up at Noosa Tri again with them this year. She's always stayed fit post high-school sport, but recently she ran the 22K race at UTA, and she and the mums at school started a run group in Centennial

[35:30] Park in Sydney. Now she's racing the 50K at Kosciuszko too. It's that thing — I don't know if any other sport has this the way running does — once you jump in, it's like the lazy river at Wet'n'Wild. Once you're in, you just float from one thing to the next, and you look up and think, what else is there to do? You keep floating around this twelve-month calendar of events, and when something catches your eye you think, yep, I'm into that. But you never get out.

[36:01] You just stay in the lazy river. I think there's also exposure at play, because there's no doubt in my mind the entry point is road running — you run and you feel great. And obviously marathoning at the moment is that box to tick, for whatever reason you do it, but marathoning is a hundred percent the thing to be doing right now because there's an aspiration to it, that's what you tick off. But then I think once

[36:31] you've experienced trail, you suddenly realise, I always felt good running, but I always had this thing of, what pace am I doing, I'm around concrete all the time. Then suddenly you get that running endorphin hit combined with nature, and I truly believe that's why it booms. As more people trickle in and get exposed to it, it creates — acceptance isn't quite the word, but it's simple — more people see it, like your group of mums,

[37:02] and if they see it, more people join, they get exposed, and the river flows. We've talked before about how trail can seem daunting compared to road running — road running is easy, Parkrun, run groups, all these things that make it so accessible, you literally open your door and you're there. Trail running can seem daunting and inaccessible — I don't know where to go, I might get lost, where do you even start, do you run with people, what food and drink do you take?

[37:32] Back to this article though — the next interesting part is from an equipment perspective. They found apparel accounts for thirty percent of trail-running expenditure, and gear is another thirty percent. Their analysis is that runners aren't just buying one item and stopping, they're outfitting themselves for an activity they treat seriously. What shoe do you think dominates the trail market in America?

[38:05] Correct, 43% of trail footwear — Hoka, they were early with specific trail shoes. Do you know what's second? That's a hard one. It's not going to be a brand like Teva or someone, is it? I don't know who Teva is. Might it be Altra? I'm not across those brands enough, but Altra or something.

[38:39] A-L-T-R-A, Altra — still relatively unknown outside the trail community, despite making shoes many serious runners swear by, holds 34% of the trail-running footwear market. This is a US thing though, I'd say that wouldn't be the case in Australia. You think Hoka would be the number one trail-running shoe here in Australia? I think they'd be close to it. If we're talking trail-specific shoes, yeah, I'd believe they'd be

[39:12] up there. I found this really interesting, because we love to talk running, we love to talk about where running's been and where it's going, and the trail world — to your point, for people who haven't done it — gives you the same feeling and takes away all the noise. Running's good, running plus nature is way better. If you feel good from running, go and run in the bush,

[39:44] you'll come back feeling way more refreshed, a hundred percent. But when you talk about equipment, this is where — the one thing with trail running is you've got a City to Surf or a marathon with tens of thousands of people, you can't do that at a trail event. So what do trail events, companies and brands do to make up the shortfall? Because you can't get the numbers on the trails that you'd get on the concrete in cities

[40:20] and everywhere else. So they make it up two ways. One, trail events are way more expensive to enter — a lot more cost. Two — super shoes are really expensive on the road, of course, but you can spend a hundred bucks on a great racing singlet and shorts and that's pretty much the extent of it. Going to trail — you'd know this better than anyone from your ultra days — if you just buy the compulsory kit for an event, that'll set you back five or six hundred bucks before you even start.

[40:54] Then you add poles, you add — a really good-quality running pack alone can be two hundred and fifty, three hundred bucks. Yeah, it's a business, you're right. Something you just said reminded me — let me do a quick Google. We've talked often about Chinese super shoes, and I was having a conversation with Craig from Ironman, the brilliant fellow who got me involved in the City to Surf coverage.

[41:28] Thank you, Craig, please bring me back next year. Craig and I were talking, because Ironman obviously runs Noosa as well, among a host of other events, and we got onto Chinese super shoes. I said I wonder whether we'll see that Chinese super-shoe phenomenon cross over into bikes, because bikes are the prohibitive cost factor for a lot of people getting into triathlon.

[42:03] Craig reckons they're already here. Do you know much about them? I'm not across them enough to talk with any authority, but I listen to a podcast every so often that talks about the Chinese bikes coming in. I think the best comparison is Chinese cars in Australia. Last Wednesday I was out driving Subaru rally cars, Toby Price was taking us for drives.

[42:37] They've also got a range of EVs, and there were a couple of EV experts there. One of the guys I met specialises in EVs — if you want to know the stats and you're buying an EV and don't know where to start, he's the guy for a consultation. He asks, what's your lifestyle, what phase of power do you have at your house — there's more to buying a car than just, what's the motor, what's the brand?

[43:11] Do I like it, does it drive well, and then you've got to worry about what charger you're getting, all the other things. Subaru have this Trailseeker EV, effectively the Outback I drive but electric, a wagon, and for certain lifestyles he's a big supporter of that. But at the same time, there are Chinese brands coming in bringing EVs at a much lower cost point,

[43:41] and the quality worry isn't really there anymore — it's nearly been accepted, because there's a threshold where price versus brand-name quality, eventually the market equalises and people make their own decision. I see it exactly the same with bikes — you wouldn't have trusted carbon from a Chinese bike before, although the majority of wheels were already being made in China, just under a Western brand name.

[44:14] But now, if enough people see their mates riding them and they haven't broken, you start to get acceptance. That's what we're seeing — shoes, cars, every market. Anyway, that just jumped to mind — I said I wonder if we'd start seeing that, Craig said it's already coming in. I'm not close enough to the bikes these days, but for sure I saw plenty of Chinese wheels coming in. Hey, while I think of it — we've talked before about the way running has tried to integrate into festivals, and I think what

[44:54] we saw was running getting integrated into some big conference over in the US, they started involving running in it — I can't remember what it was. But I had another example during the week of running becoming part of another sport in a very different way. Wednesday night at The Star on the Gold Coast — I'm talking about this in advance, because it hasn't happened yet when we're recording, but it will

[45:24] have happened by the time people hear this. Teremoana, the Aussie heavyweight, was fighting DeAndre Savage, the American boxer. Eddie Hearn — people may or may not know him, one of the biggest boxing promoters in the world, promotes all of Anthony Joshua's fights, the big UK fighter — came into the Triple M Breakfast studio. He does a thing called Fight Day 5K — for every fight his Matchroom Boxing hosts, the morning of the fight, he goes out, because he's an avid runner, and hosts a Fight Day 5K.

[46:02] where fight fans and their kids and everyone can come along. Do the fighters go out too? Not really. Eddie himself is six-foot-five, a hundred kilos, he'd be a Clydesdale — I meant to tell him, Eddie, you realise in Australia you're a Clydesdale. But he goes out and runs 5K with all the fans, talks to them, meets and greets, and that's just part of the fight-day routine now for Matchroom Boxing. Also, hilariously, shout out to the Trail Kings boys —

[46:32] he walked in wearing Alphaflys. He did — Alphaflys in the wild that morning, ready for his 5K, probably just come from it. He talked about how he finds the Alphafly not quite wide enough for his foot, but he knows they're a super shoe — whereas whenever he wears an all-foam shoe, because he's such a big guy, he doesn't feel like he's getting anything back out of it. It was at that point Liesel and Spida told me to stop talking about running.

[47:05] we're here to talk about boxing, we're about to go on air, we want to talk boxing. And I said, but I just want to talk about running. Anyway — for all of those things, the common thread — and this includes musicians doing their runs, having their own fire cases — the common denominator is anyone with an interest in running whose core job or activity is outside of running. You're seeing it everywhere now, which is all great, especially if you host a running podcast.

[47:36] Shout out to Matt from Newcastle — as I was checking out of my hotel after City to Surf, he was in there, and there was that moment where he looked at me and I looked at him. He said, did you run City to Surf this morning? I said no, I was hosting. He said, Liam? I said, yeah. He said, I listen to the podcast. I said, ah, cool. Turned out he'd come down from Newcastle and ran a fifty-nine, went sub-sixty. I said, mate, brilliant. It was an awkward moment where I think he knew who I was, but I'm not at the level where I can assume anybody does.

[48:14] It's always good when that happens. Let's get into some feedback — I've pretty much cleaned out the inbox, spent a bit of time on it this morning. What have you got? We've got some crew loving the idea that we might go and do rogaining. Every time I think of that it makes me think of the hair product. The support for us doing a rogaine is great — one word of warning though.

[48:45] Wade sent this in — it's ninety percent off-track, so don't think of it as a running event necessarily. No, that's bush-bashing. I'm fine with that, because it'll slow you down, which advantages me. If you and I do this as a team, that's a huge plus for me — the less running, the better, so I can keep up with you. What else have we got?

[49:15] I won't mention a name here, in case she didn't want this going public, but I think it's a great lesson that everyone's going to be different. This is about coaching — the message said, "Hey guys, I listened to the latest episode, you were talking about the AI mindset thing around the Sydney Marathon, the Eloise Wellings AI coach" — and she wrote in saying she

[49:46] was thinking of trying an AI running app, because she's gone through two different coaches and both have actually disappointed her. The first question I asked back was, were they experts, and why didn't they work for you? Because that seemed a bit odd. Her exact words were that she's going to try AI because the two coaches who were meant to be experts had let her down.

[50:17] I thought, that's a bit sad, because when you trust someone you at least hope they'll follow through, whether it works out or not. There were two reasons. The first coach was just too much — it wasn't just about running, it was about weight loss, what you're eating, over the top, and it didn't work out. The second issue was that the coach had so many clients, they were just too popular,

[50:49] and she wasn't getting the one-on-one coaching she wanted — her program wasn't coming through in time. It made me think, because we preach personalised coaching a lot on this show, but everyone has a different experience, and in the end you've got to work out what works for you. Totally, and both those experiences feel like more than fair reasons to walk away and be a bit disheartened. Interestingly, that second point about too many

[51:23] clients — I've had this conversation with a few footy players about player management. You've got these big player management agencies, and this would be true in any sport, but there must be a threshold where once a manager reaches a certain number of clients, it's a tipping point, and suddenly the less talented or less financially important clients lose service.

[51:54] It sounds a bit like what this runner went through with her coach — I've spoken with footballers who say, I'm player X, but player Y is a superstar, and fifteen percent of player Y's earnings matter way more to my manager than fifteen percent of mine. That's why I left that manager, or got punted down to the second or third-rank manager. I don't know if those players have the option to use AI for management the way this runner's using it for coaching,

[52:24] but maybe they will in future. I totally get what this person's saying — go and try AI, it might be exactly what you need. All we've ever really said about AI as a training tool or coach is that it doesn't have the ability to know you as a person. It can give you sessions, it can give you data, it can interpret your data, as Courtney's shown when he's pumped everything into Strava.

[52:54] It's absolutely a tool to use. But the comparative difference — and we've mostly only spoken about Benita Willis, friend of the pod, Lace Up Running, because we've had personal experience with it — is her ability to know her clients as people, know what their week looks like, what they're going through health-wise, and adjust sessions in real time on short notice.

[53:24] Also, if she can't manage her own group, she's got other coaches who work with her that suit different people — that's the whole not-oversubscribing thing. If you can find an AI run-coach app, whether it's Runna or any of the others, and it works for you, use it. Hey, I'm still deep in the Claude connector with Strava — I followed through on this, I've talked about it on the pod before, and I'm continuing to do it, getting it to update with me daily.

[54:00] More from a learning perspective — I want to understand how it works, whether it's good enough. But today was a great example — it's giving me a bit of a steer based on my Strava from the last few weeks since the marathon, and if it had its way, Claude wouldn't have me running again, wouldn't have me doing a session for another eight weeks. Because obviously it's scraping the web for information, and generally what you find, or the articles it's pulling from that are most popular, are

[54:37] outliers. Like anything, it could be skewed by the outliers — someone really pushing recovery content, and we've all seen the social posts, I can't remember half the words they use about what's happening to your quads. But the reality is, heart rate's fine, legs feel good, it's time to get back to work. Funny enough, today — in the whole experiment I was doing before the marathon I said never run with the fast guys — well, today I went out with the fast group and did some hills.

[55:08] Claude nearly freaked out. I was like, nothing's wrong, heart rate's fine, I felt okay, but it's still flagging red because — if I was following this blindly, I'd be in a world of trouble. At the end of the day, all of these things are tools for you to use. Your running is ultimately your responsibility. It's super fun to have this extra layer, if you're that way inclined — I love the information.

[55:38] I love learning alongside something like this — it's been really fun for me. But if you just blindly followed it, which is a habit you could get into, going, oh, I should only do an easy 13K today at this heart rate, that's a problem. Again, at the end of the day, your running is your responsibility. However you choose to run, and whatever tools you choose to use, that's on you.

[56:08] If you're getting your sessions from AI and you feel like your decision-making autonomy is being taken away, stop using it. And if you don't feel like you're pushing hard enough because you're just making things up as you go, maybe go jump on AI and ask for harder sessions. But ultimately, make your own decision, or get a coach you trust. And even still, to this person's point, if you get a coach and you're not getting what you want out of them, move on.

[56:41] Which is what she's done. But here's a caveat — when it's a real person, a real coach, it's not going to work if you're questioning them the way you'd question AI. This is one thing I've learned over decades: if you're with someone and they're going to be your captain, you've got to go all in, you can't be second-guessing every time. What's the point of having someone there for you if it's different from just discussing how you're feeling in conversation?

[57:17] But if you've got a coach saying, this week here's the program, and you're turning around questioning it — did you ever come across athletes like that? Because you were a little bit like that too, wanting to understand things yourself, break it apart and put it back together. But obviously in your elite career, was it a case of what the coach says goes? No, I think I always worked it more as a mentorship than pure coaching.

[57:50] But I also think that was a miss, in some ways. What was your coach's name — the elite group you joined, where your results had never been better? Yeah, and then you left. I left, but not for coaching reasons — I never distrusted the coach, I'd just probably learnt enough to go away and apply it myself, for different reasons.

[58:23] But that was a situation where I thought, I can't beat them doing this, I have to join them — and at that point I'm all in, blindly all in on the coaching, because there's proof it works. I'd never question anything, because there's a blind faith that it's going to work. That's where I come back to talking about expertise that's proven. We've talked about this before, about someone's recommendation.

[58:55] We talked about Dean Boxall last week — if you're an elite swimmer trying to make the Olympics, and it's not working with your coach, but you're seeing the results other swimmers are getting, you'd be silly not to go and join Dean Boxall's group. But you're not going to walk in there every day and say, oh, but old Jimmy told me this was too hard, I'm going to sit back — you'd get kicked out quicker than you know. That's the point about being all in on coaching, no questioning, until you're ready to go do something different.

[59:28] It comes back to ultimately only being able to take responsibility for yourself. You made the decision — I can't get where I want to be without training and learning from this bloke — so you went and did that, and then got to a point where it was time to move on. Which brings it back to the average runner, like the person who said, I've tried two human coaches, neither worked for me, I'm going to try AI. Great — you're making independent decisions for your own running.

[59:59] That's all you can ultimately do. Can we share our little local race — "Australia's toughest foot race"? You threw this one in, Courtney. I did — dad actually sent it to me, he saw it on the ABC of all things, you'd never have come across it otherwise. If it was left to you, you'd never have seen this — thank you, Mr Atkinson. The ABC apparently covered this on some program, Four Corners or something.

[1:00:31] There's a lot of races out there — let's put it this way, there's a lot of races at the moment that are just made up. Let's just make up a race because we need to be different and make it a thing. There's hill races, and this one's called Australia's toughest foot race — the King of the Mountain at, what's the town, Wycheproof? Yep, Wycheproof King of the Mountain.

[1:01:02] Wycheproof King of the Mountain. Have you ever heard of it — do you know where it is? No, I had to look it up, it's in country Victoria, Mount Wycheproof. It's been around a long time — from 1978 to 1988 there was a challenge, and competitors have to lug 63-and-a-half-kilo bags of wheat up a one-kilometre summit.

[1:01:33] Here's the kicker that makes it special — it's officially the world's smallest mountain. A country town event, a sack of wheat on your shoulder, one K up the world's smallest mountain. That bag is so heavy, it's like wife-carrying stuff. It ran for a long time, and in 2023 it was brought back by the Wycheproof

[1:02:10] Football Club — they've brought it back and it's been running each year, on the same day as the AFL grand final, and then I reckon they'd have a good old piss-up after. Interestingly, notable people from Wycheproof — it's a very short list. We've got records dating back to 1978.

[1:02:40] VFL footballer Greg Kennedy, never heard of him, was recruited by Carlton via the Eaglehawk Football Club. And Peta Credlin, who used to be chief of staff for Tony Abbott and is now on Sky News, is from Wycheproof too. Okay, so one kilometre is the distance, correct? One kilometre, yes.

[1:03:10] Sixty-three-and-a-half-kilo sack of wheat on your shoulder. I've got the winning times from this year, 2025. What do you reckon? I'll predict — there's a no-bag time and a bag time. For the no-bag time, if it's only a kilometre up a hill, I'm guessing somebody's probably run sub-four.

[1:03:43] Four forty-two, though there are a few quicker, four-ten over the years, but I'll go on last year's time. So with the sixty-kilo bag, I'll say it's taken at least double — nine minutes? Six-ten. That's flying, that's a good run. That was Keegan Donovan.

[1:04:15] Big shout out to Keegan Donovan, six-ten. Matt, we could try and recreate this — I could put you on my back and run a kilometre up an incline. Back in the eighties they were doing it in fives, with the bag. I don't know what was going on, but from '84 to '88, Jimmy Hawke —

[1:04:45] Jimmy from Eaglehawk, he was a gun. So interesting races — there's also the Panorama King of the Mountain, a particular up-and-down run. There was one when I was a kid running cross-country at school, down in the Northern Rivers — I can't remember exactly which town, but they used to have a famous up-and-down mountain foot race, gloves on for the climb.

[1:05:16] Because coming down, it's steep enough that you're literally hooking onto trees. In those days the local town would always put up cash prizes, so you'd get good runners turning up to all these small-town mountain events. You did that big Japanese stair-climb thing too, didn't you? Yeah, what was that, three thousand three hundred and thirty-three steps? Or was it eight something — a lot of steps, anyway.

[1:05:46] Once you get into the thousands, you just keep going. Don't bring back those flashbacks. I'll tell you what, all the Ironman crew at City to Surf last weekend couldn't wait to ask me about UTA. I was like, don't ask, it still haunts my dreams. Anyway — nice work. What's coming up for you this week? At what point are we ready to disclose the next marathon?

[1:06:18] Not yet, because I haven't committed — I'm going to run a marathon in November. Is that a Freudian slip, "melon"? I'm not actually running Melbourne at the moment — though there you go, there's a number of marathons on in November, I just haven't decided which one exactly. What date is the Melbourne Marathon? I actually don't know, it's November, isn't it? We've got Noosa first weekend of November,

[1:06:52] and the marathon itself — let me check — is the weekend after. Part of me's thinking about trying to get down, not to run it, just to see what Melbourne Marathon day's like. Wait till you run it — run it or commentate it, one of the two. Get the full experience. There you go, race organisers — I'll only be there if I'm running or commentating. All right, there we go, beautiful, another rep in the can.

[1:07:22] We will see you next week. See you next week.