GOLD COAST MARATHON SERIES - MICHAEL SHELLEY

[00:00] In the Beginning Podcast runs the Gold Coast Marathon. The series continues in some fine fashion today because whilst we've had the benefit and the privilege of having Benita Willis, arguably Australia's greatest ever distance runner, join us as a coach — Lace Up Running — and we've had Bronte Langbroek come on board as our first-time marathoner, and all the various experts who've rolled through, today we're joined by a two-time Commonwealth gold medallist over the marathon distance, and a man who in 2018 delivered one of the greatest runs the Gold Coast Marathon course has ever

[00:32] seen, in winning gold for Australia. Mr Michael Shelley, welcome to the podcast. Thanks very much for having me. Well, I'll tell you what — he knows how to run the Gold Coast Marathon course, so if anyone needs some tips, we've got them, we're going to have them here today. But you know what caught me off the bat when you talk about stats for Mike: there's only been three Australian men to win Commonwealth Games gold medals — Rob de Castella, Steve Moneghetti, Michael Shelley. The big three.

[01:02] I wouldn't put myself in that company, I can tell you that right now — those guys were well and truly above my level, that's for sure. What, you say that, but at the same time, two Commonwealth Games gold medals. The main reason we've got you on today is because we really do want to dig into the course itself for the Gold Coast Marathon, because you know it better than anybody. Let's talk a bit about where you're at now — Courtney's mentioned at times over the podcast that you guys have done a bit of running together. What are you doing running-wise now? Are you running much?

[01:32] I am doing a little bit at the moment. I'm probably running about 10K most days — that's probably the limit. The longest I've had off since I retired was about ten days, two weeks probably the longest. But yeah, 10K most days is just a good start to the day. Obviously in winter it's a little bit harder because of the cold weather — even as a Queenslander I actually had to put some gloves on the other day. You didn't. I did. I did live in Canberra for a couple of years, but that was cold — this was still very, very

[02:03] cold. So how many years have you been retired? Since 2019, so six years. But you still start your day with a 10K run? Still start the day with a 10K run — it's only when I'm really tired and feel like I need a day off that I don't push myself. But I still love just getting out and enjoying the fresh air, and clearing the head — if there's anything you're worried about, just going out and having a run helps. Did it take — was there a break? Did you think when you retired that you suddenly wouldn't want to run for a while, and then you

[02:33] came back to it, or did it just continue? No, it pretty much continued the whole way. When I made the decision, I sat on it for six weeks just to make sure I really had had enough. And it got to the point where I didn't want to go back and do the hard sessions — that was the reason. I still wanted to enjoy running — I think I always will — but that's where I wanted to leave it, so that I didn't end up hating what I did and thinking, I don't like running, I don't want to think about it.

[03:03] I just wanted to always be able to go out there and still enjoy going for a run. And you — do you still enjoy that sensation of going out for a run? Absolutely, I still love it. I love getting up some mornings and doing a harder run, some mornings it's just very easy, but I still like getting out the door and having a run — say g'day to people as I run past, good morning, that sort of thing. I love doing that, it's a great way to start the day. How's your mind, because I know old mate Atkinson over here hasn't been able to turn off the competitive switch yet — have you made peace with that

[03:33] side of yourself as a former elite athlete? Yeah, I think I have. For me, it came to the point where the whole structure of having to get ready for a race wasn't where I wanted to be anymore. But I can still go and do a couple of harder sessions if I want, and then just run easy for six or seven weeks and decide, oh, I might want to do something else — do a couple of sessions, and it's — to me it's done. There's still a little bit there, but it's not what it needs to be to be at the

[04:04] competitive level it once was. So if you go out to those sessions — say you join a group — because this is where Courtney still struggles: when he goes out and sees the young ones leading the sessions now, do you still want to jump in with them, or are you happy to let them run ahead? Mike's underplaying it here, because I invite him to our session sometimes down at the spit and he's still bloody leading. He's still OK — trust me, he hasn't lost it. He's downplaying how

[04:34] he's still off the front. It's quite amazing how quickly, even off structured training, you can just pick up a session and run with it and it's — definitely not as good as what it once was, but it's still there. Hey, on structure — because I think people listening who are doing the Gold Coast Marathon specifically will be interested in this — when you talk about the structure you had, you had a goal of two marathons a year, right? Once you got into that

[05:04] marathon phase, explain what you went through, how it was structured, and why you did it that way. For me it's probably more of an old-school training set-up, because with my coach Dick Telford — and everyone back in the early 90s, even the 80s — we used to do a long run and two or three quality sessions a week. It's basically set up a bit like a track season, just with a bit more volume in those training sessions.

[05:34] So I'd do my long run on a Sunday, an easy Monday with some gym or circuit-style work, Tuesday was always a track session or longer efforts, and then Thursday or Saturday, depending on the phase of the programme — either a longer Thursday and an easier Saturday before a long run, or a harder Thursday into a race-effort Saturday and an easier Sunday long run. So I was doing three hard sessions a week plus a long run,

[06:05] and filling it in with easy miles, making sure the legs were recovered and ready for the next session. And why two marathons a year — why not just do one big goal race, or maybe three or four? What made two the right number for you? For me it was about setting up to try and make teams. The years I didn't need to build for something specific, I'd do two to prepare for hopefully making the team for an Olympics or Commonwealth Games, and then be fully focused on

[06:35] doing a longer prep into that build for the bigger year. What's the prep phase like when you say a long prep? Just enjoying different distances — half marathons, 10Ks — not the long hard drag that a marathon build-up can be. Because after every marathon I had three weeks off, I did not touch my running shoes, it was done — I went on holidays. That was part of my enjoyment of marathons, and what I loved most was I'd pick a

[07:05] destination, go there to race, and then have a look around after — the venue or the city I was in — just to experience the real culture of the place as well as running through it. If you're listening to this, whatever you're doing, or if you're part of Events Management Queensland — you've just heard Michael Shelley deliver that, that's what you need to be putting on all your promotional flyers next year: after the race, take those three weeks and reward yourself for the hard work.

[07:38] And that was the big thing — I was probably a bit of a hermit for the full two to three months leading into it. It was eat, sleep, train, ready to go for race day, avoiding anything that could get you sick or cost you sleep. Sometimes I had to be mindful and couldn't go to some mates' parties, but my mates understood what the process was, and we always caught up afterwards. Yeah, I was going to say, they'd be waiting for you at the

[08:09] finish line, ready to make up for those three weeks afterwards — it's on. Never joined one of Mike's parties, but I heard he went pretty hard after it all. Definitely. Look, we are going to get to the course itself, the specific race, but you've given us a bit of insight into how you trained and why. Do you remember your first marathon? First marathon was Rotterdam, in the Netherlands, in 2010. Do you remember how you felt before that?

[08:40] Oh, nervous, absolutely. But Dick was always trying to get me into the mindset of: just be relaxed, and you'll get tired — that was the whole approach to the marathon, you'll just get tired towards the end of it. I thought, okay, that's sweet, it's just going to be a long run and you'll get tired towards the end. I've never heard the marathon put quite so simply — you'll just get tired. Talk to Mike for an hour and you'll start to

[09:12] realise that in life, if you want to achieve something, you can go by a structure and discipline and keep it simple, and it works — that's why every — so to give a bit of context, we're sitting here joking around with Michael, and when did I first start running with you? We did some stuff in 2010, didn't we? So you did most of your marathon training completely on your own — how many kilometres a week were you

[09:42] doing, probably 170-plus, pushing up towards 200 to 210. So similar to what Benita was talking about — that's the level both the guys and the girls were running at for that marathon prep. For me it was an opportunity to jump in with Mike, and I think it was good for him to have someone to run with too. But for me it was just getting in on the back of him in some of his harder, longer sessions, and hanging on as long as I could.

[10:12] Sometimes it would completely cook me and destroy me, other times it was the perfect training for me — but I could never keep up the whole way. The one thing I remember we talked a lot about on the podcast is cadence, steps per minute, and how you ran — I always remember I'd be able to stick with Mike for three or four K in a 5K rep, running at your same cadence, and then I just couldn't

[10:43] continue that cadence with you. You had this ability to hold a certain cadence and just run it out for a marathon. And I think, looking at you over those years, besides the toughness, that was one of your key strengths — being able to repeat a cadence for as long as you could. The big thing was I never had a high knee lift, even when I was running on the track — running the Cliffy Young shuffle, the knee lift wasn't great, and Dick was always trying to work on it, but we never really

[11:13] got around to a higher cadence — the knee lift just wasn't there. I remember training sessions doing hill reps, Dick was always saying knees, knees, knees, and I'm like, I just can't do it, Dick — I'm just trying to get through as quickly as I can. So I always just tried to run as easy as possible. But early on, through track and field, doing kilometre reps, I'd always get out hard for the first 200 of a K rep and then

[11:44] just try to relax into a rhythm. I don't know if it was just that acceleration in the first bit and then settling into rhythm — that's probably what my reps were like: a little bit quicker out of the blocks, and then able to fall into a routine, relax a little, hold that cadence. Painfully annoying to run with at the same time — doing reps with this guy, and just to give context, before Michael

[12:14] went into marathons, what was your 1500 PB? 3:39. So, for 1500 you had some pace before you went to the marathon. And to this day, when you do a rep with Mike, he'll run the first ten metres like a sprint as you click over and go, okay, we're on again — that first ten metres is like a sprint, and then he settles, and if you're trying to hang on to him it's redline, and now you've got to try and settle again too.

[12:45] That was my problem in the 1500 — for some unknown reason I could never get out of the blocks quickly, I'd always get blown off the start chasing, and then for some reason my last lap always seemed strong — maybe it was a mental thing, being able to push through a bit more at the back end because it's just 400 metres to go, you tell yourself it's 400 metres to go. Or maybe the acceleration just wasn't there for some reason — the power wasn't there, or maybe my technique just wasn't as strong as others in

[13:17] that regard. But it is what it is. Sorry, quick question — this might seem weird — can you run a sub-four-minute mile? I never actually tried one — I did try once but had the flu doing it and had to pull out, coughed up this massive lump of phlegm after about a K. So, no, but a 3:39 fifteen hundred is roughly equivalent to a sub-four mile.

[13:49] Right, no, just as you said, at the time of that 1500 I thought — so this is basically a sub-four mile, amazing. Let's go back to the marathon, because that's what we're here to talk about. But I really liked the way you simplified that first marathon with Dick saying, well, you'll get tired. I love that, because I think we over-complicate this — the boom in marathon running has come with a whole bunch of people trying to tell you how to run and race. But when someone at your calibre, at the pointy end of the sport, has their coach literally telling them before their first marathon, you'll

[14:19] just get tired — I think for everyday runners like myself, and average people about to run their first one, that's a great mantra to have on the start line. You'll just get tired. We've all been tired at some point in our lives, whether through running or partying or whatever — you'll have that feeling, you just get tired. Do you remember how you felt after you finished that first marathon? Yeah, it was interesting, because I felt great until about 36 kilometres, which is probably what everyone will feel on race day — felt amazing, but two K later I

[14:49] didn't feel so great. It hit me pretty quickly. The back end didn't go so well, but I was able to tough it out and finish — I think I ran 2:13 in my first marathon. So I was going a little better than that when the wheels started falling off, and it just started to fall to pieces. I thought, I can do better than this — that got into me pretty much straight away. You can do better, recover,

[15:19] enjoy yourself, enjoy Rotterdam, have a little look around Europe, and then come back and get into it. Fortunately I was good enough to go to Delhi for the Commonwealth Games afterwards and ended up coming second there, so I was able to fix some of the issues from that first preparation in time for a Commonwealth Games. So cool — it's great hearing that, talking to Michael Shelley, two-time Commonwealth gold medallist. What's your marathon PB? 2:11.

[15:50] And remember, this is all pre-super-shoe — we'll talk shoes a bit later — all these times we're talking about are pre-super-shoe. But the fact that pre-race nerves, your coach telling you you'll get tired, hitting the wall around 36K like most marathon runners will maybe do in this Gold Coast Marathon in a couple of weeks — and then at the end of the race, the same feeling I had the first time around the Gold Coast Marathon, which was, oh my God that was horrible, never again — five minutes later, oh, I can do better than that.

[16:20] I now want to focus on the next race. It's a mental approach, and that's the big thing I tried to do — keep it as simple as possible. Don't overstress it, because if you start overthinking — I need this, I need that — you change little things between each race, but not a massive change. The more you think about it, the more you stress about it and you're not keeping it simple. It's just going out there and running. We're on location — we've talked, I've told your story,

[16:52] I hope that was okay — about the first 32 to 36K, I think it was the London Marathon, where you first told me the story: I'm just going to take in the sights for that first 32K and then the race starts, if I get there easy. So how did that come about — was it Dick, or did you come up with it, and when?

[17:23] It was through racing itself, and conversation with Dick, understanding a lot more about the marathon distance, because it's always going to be a challenge, no matter what — 42K is going to be a challenge. And talking with other athletes — Benita, Deek, Mona, Lisa Weightman — you'd always find that through that first 30K you'll feel quite good, and then you really start thinking about the last 12. You switch on, you focus, and you start using that energy in your mind to get to the finish line that bit quicker. Whereas if you're

[17:53] as relaxed as possible, not stressing, not using extra energy, you can use that energy later in the race. Did you go purely by feel in that non-stressed approach? A lot of it was by feel, and Dick was in that camp too — trying to be easy, relaxed, and not breathing too heavily. That was probably my other cue — if you're not breathing too heavy,

[18:23] you're not using too much energy, and you can use that later. I think it was practising that, trying to stay as relaxed as possible — that was basically it, keeping it as simple as possible. But you had a goal pace — you might go, okay, this is my goal time, and you might've gone out too hard or too easy. How did you think about pacing — purely by time, or did you have a GPS watch at that stage? I never really raced with a watch, I tried to run by feel.

[18:55] That was probably my main approach, because there was usually a pace group running to a set time, and to about 25 to 30K you'd stay with them — relaxed, enjoying the city — and then once they pulled off around the 28K mark, you'd start switching on a little and push from there.

[19:27] That's probably the notion — there are probably people listening who are more in my camp than yours — of running without a watch, controlling your pace by feel. The watch is a perfect training tool, one of the best things ever made. I remember when Marty Dent introduced me to Garmin — the watches these days are a lot smaller than the original ones. What was that big orange one —

[19:58] the 305, I think — a big watch on your wrist, and I don't have the biggest wrists going around, so it felt heavy. But it let me use pace and look at training graphs, and that really helped, because Dick lived in Canberra and I was living on the Gold Coast, so for training purposes it was great — I'd download my heart rate and he was able to interpret it, because he's a physiology guru,

[20:28] and he could tell from the heart-rate data or my comments how hard the training was. We basically did that my whole marathon career, and he'd come to a couple of sessions a week every now and then, but that was generally how we communicated. You said you ran mostly by yourself during those training years — was that out of choice, or a lack of people capable of running with you?

[20:59] A lot of it was choice, to be honest — obviously Courtney was there for some hard sessions, and a few other people too, which I was grateful for every now and then. But you also don't want to put yourself into a hole training all the time — I felt like if I raced too much in sessions, that little competitive switch would go on and put me into a hole. I put myself into a hole a couple of times training on my own, just pushing myself hard. But sometimes you just have to accept it and move on to the next one. There were times I was out the back in the rainforest and had to walk home — a two-hour walk — I

[21:29] completely bonked. I was supposed to do a 30K run, probably managed 20 of it, and had to walk back — it happens, you move on. My wife, if she's listening, knows there've been several times: can you come pick me up, what's happened, I don't feel good. I remember, up in the forest, the day you were chucking up — thirty minutes back, and this guy just chucks up, has a bit of a walk. Are you sure you're right? Yep, keep going.

[22:00] The other thing people might be interested in — I've talked earlier about discipline and structure, and this is why I disliked running with Mike a lot of the time — if we were running in the forest, I'd go and do a 20-minute loop before he'd get there because I didn't want to run as far as him. And then we'd head out on the loop, and I have an awful bladder and need to stop for the toilet — this guy won't stop.

[22:30] So I had to time it, knowing where the turn was coming, so I could get off the track for a moment before I'd miss him and have to chase him down. This guy is relentless. No — I thought you meant he pissed while he ran when you said he won't stop. Not that. But there are reasons why certain athletes, not just in running but in other sports, achieve what they achieve, and that's it —

[23:01] they probably don't even realise it half the time. There was a relentlessness to how you trained, and that's why the performance came — there was discipline, you did it on your own, and had the mental strength to go and do that. Not many people have that. Did you ever bonk in a marathon? Did you ever just — I completed every marathon I started.

[23:31] I hit the wall a couple of times — the first was Chicago, I didn't nail Chicago, I fell over in the last two hundred metres, down the home straight, the legs were going. There were definitely a couple — I think Beppu, in Japan, I hit the wall as well. But you finished every race? Finished every one, yeah. Couldn't bring yourself not to? No — because most of the time it happened close to the end, and it's like, I can get through this, I just have to run slower, and it's not ideal, and you get frustrated with yourself. Then it's like, I need two weeks off, and then I'll get back into it and try to change something, because I might have

[24:01] changed one thing in the lead-up, which is what I used to always do — change one variable to see if it worked. If it did, I'd keep it; if not, I'd change something else and try again — just trying to find those little things to get to that next level, to run a bit

[24:31] faster. Interesting that when he bonked, he gave himself two weeks off, because normally he'd give himself three. That was the part he'd cut back on if he didn't quite get there — two weeks off wherever I raced, then back into it with the mates.

[24:31] On testing — today on social media there's a lot of talk about saunas, heat training, and we talk a lot about altitude training too. You used to spend half the year here in summer training for a marathon —

[25:03] all of it, but also compare that with going off to do altitude training. What's always interesting to me is your times never really changed much. What was your take on altitude training versus heat training here in summer on the Gold Coast? I used to use an altitude tent in my room as well — you told me that? Yeah, I used the tent, that was the secret. What's the tent — an altitude tent, so I'd take the bed down, put the tent up, and spend ten hours a night in it, and that's

[25:34] basically it — like the thing Courtney's got in his bathroom, you can walk in, it's like an air freshener. But yeah, I used the altitude tent most of the time. I did go away a few times for altitude — to Falls Creek once or twice, and to Boulder once as well. It's a hard one, because most championships are in really hot weather, so I probably excelled because of training on the Gold Coast — though I definitely came back fitter from those altitude stints, that's for sure. It's hard to say whether one thing worked one time and not the

[26:06] next — I'm not really sure. I just went out there and tried to invest fully every time, and that's the bottom line for anyone doing a marathon: just do your best. That's all you can ask for — you might not have the fastest time, but I just tried to do my best, and that was it. In your career, what was your best race? They've all got different meaning and feel, but which one, when you look back, do you

[26:37] go, that was the race where everything came together — the training, the weather, the conditions, the day, the feeling? There's probably a couple — obviously Glasgow 2014, that came together. I was never able to replicate the last 5K from that marathon again. Do you remember what you ran for that last 5K? It was low fifteen minutes or so, one of my best finishes — I was able to finish strong. But London Olympics was also pretty good — I ran

[27:08] basically within ten seconds of each half, finishing 16th. That's an amazing performance at an Olympic Games — my first Olympics, and Courtney was there too. There was just something about what the Olympics felt like in the build-up, having mates on the course

[27:39] cheering my name, I could hear them — you get the goosebumps, thinking, this is the Olympic Games, I've got mates here, this is unbelievable. And then obviously, as athletes near the end of the program, there's no partying for us, but you had the three weeks afterwards. I did, and they were a tough three weeks. I'm getting a bit of goosebumps just hearing you talk about London — well, we were there, opening ceremony, we had that photo — I was a multi-sport athlete at the time, I had Mike running, Kenny Wallace in the kayaking, and

[28:11] Kai was with us too, and we got a photo of all the Gold Coast crew together, arguably my training crew. Yeah, a pinch-me moment — how did I end up here. Amazing. You just think back at school about the Olympic Games, having mates really focused on doing their best in their sport, and then actually getting there — you talk about it and think, how good would that be, it's always in the distance. So when was that the goal for you — when did you realise you wanted to go to the Olympics?

[28:43] Probably around 16 or 17, but through that school phase it was always about goal-setting — having that main goal but ticking off the little ones to get there. Was the Olympics always a goal for you too? Yep, about the same age, or a bit earlier for you? Probably earlier — I remember, mid-high school, sitting in a careers class, the teacher asked what I was going to do, and I said I'm going to be a Tour de France cyclist, and they

[29:13] just looked at me and laughed — that's not a job, what are you thinking? And then obviously I veered off toward a triathlon career. But I knew even then that sport was all I wanted to do — a Tour de France cyclist, maybe that was around when Armstrong was big, that's who you looked up to. That's the thing with kids, whether it's running or triathlon or cycling or swimming, I think you're driven at that age by

[29:44] your hero, the people you want to emulate — depending what kids are seeing at the time. My son's watching guys on YouTube flipping bikes, so he wants to ride, he's at the pump track every week, wants to be a slopestyle rider. I was a swimmer and runner as a kid, but I saw Armstrong, saw the triathlon, and that's where I wanted to go. I wanted to play soccer — my first goal was

[30:14] soccer. I used to wake up early watching Barcelona, the Socceroos, and think, how good would it be to play soccer at the Olympics — mind-blowing. But then once I got into high school, I decided to veer off and challenge myself in a different sport. Basically, through my PE teacher Brett Green, we started setting goals — the district level, and by the end of high school it was to try and win a medal at nationals — but it

[30:44] was always about improving the time to qualify for the next stage. Interesting — never underestimate, with kids in sport, how much you don't realise as an adult you can make a difference — one sentence of encouragement to a kid can send them off on a whole different trajectory. It's funny we're having this conversation today, because on the weekend my daughter won player of the match for her Under-9s Bulldogs team.

[31:14] And that feeling — that vision of a kid excited about playing sport — is so precious, and as a parent, part of your responsibility becomes to nurture that, to make sure that fire stays lit as they grow up. Do you want to get into the shoe chat now? Yeah, let's go. Or should we cover the Gold Coast course first? Yeah, let's make sure we cover the course — that's probably

[31:45] not the main reason, we could chat for hours on everything, but obviously your Commonwealth Games gold medal was on the Gold Coast, iconic on the same course. Most of the listeners running Gold Coast will want to hear this — let's go: Mike Shelley's cheat sheet for the Gold Coast Marathon course. Quick caveat — when Mike won, the course ran in reverse to how it runs now.

[32:18] So it's probably actually a better layout doing the south section first — once you get over that hill out the front of Australia Fair, it's a tough one. If you hit it at 30K it's a lot easier than at 40K, that's for sure. But you've got to, as I was saying, enjoy the city too, seeing parts you don't usually get to see at that time of day, with the streets cut off for cyclists, cars,

[32:50] everything — so enjoy running through iconic parts of the Gold Coast, like along Cavill Avenue and down toward Miami. You don't get to run down Cavill Avenue without anyone else there very often — it's a very enjoyable stretch. There are a couple of little speed bumps down around Hedges Avenue, but that's probably the only rough part — just try not to let them get to

[33:22] you, because the surface can be a bit unstable and uneven there. How would you break up the course — you're running it in two and a half weeks, sitting there at the start line — do you think, I want to reach that section by a certain time, or break it up mentally like that, or not so much?

[33:54] Not so much for me, because Commonwealth Games racing is a different environment — more of a racing tactic. Once again, I didn't wear a watch, so it was all about feel — if there were moves I felt I could cover, I'd go with them, if it felt too hot, I'd slow down a little. But for the people running the marathon here — find your pacer group and start with them, that's probably the number one thing: find the pace that matches your

[34:25] goal and the training that's led you there, stick with them, and try to enjoy having a chat to the people around you, because that'll be a guide to how hard you're actually working in that first part of the race. So it's about finding the pace group you want to run with, and talking to the people around you to make sure you're comfortable and relaxed, especially through that first half. If you're all together around the 30K

[34:55] mark, you can start pushing and motivating each other to the finish when things start getting tough. And if you can't hold a conversation, if it's too hard to talk, you'll probably need to slow down — maybe drop back to the next group. The most important part is probably the first 10K — don't go too hard, because you'll feel fantastic through that first 10K, trust me, everyone does — and then if you've gone a

[35:28] little too hard, you'll start feeling it sooner. As we talk today, the Cairns Ironman just happened over the weekend, and Rhianna Cran — friend of the podcast, who loves sending us her Strava bike sessions — completed the Ironman, so shout out to her and everyone else listening who did the Ironman. Interestingly, the marathon section of an Ironman race is a lap course —

[35:59] they do about five laps to make up the marathon distance. I noticed on her socials that she broke the run into a lap for her mum, a lap for her dad, a lap for her husband Will, a lap for their son Dash, and then a lap for herself — she broke it up by who she was running each lap for. So, given you were in more of a racing mindset, do you think there's value in breaking the course into sections dedicated to people?

[36:29] Potentially — Benita talks about that a lot, actually, in her weekly sessions with her amateur athletes — thinking about who you're doing it for, who's driving you. I love that as a reminder for everyone, including myself: don't be a slave to the watch. It's a great tool — your GPS, your pacing — but in the end you've got to listen to your body. A marathon is long enough that you'll have ups and downs, and you can come through them and get better. But if you're just a slave to

[37:00] your target pace on the GPS, and things start going wrong, you've got to be able to dictate your own feelings and your own pace. That's what I mean about Mike going to the extreme of not using a watch at all — but the other option is to just watch your heart rate, since most watches have that, and run to heart rate to make sure you're not pushing too hard — that can give you a guide that you're working a little too hard for where you should be at that point in the race,

[37:32] and just have that on your screen if you want to monitor effort, to make sure you're not overcooking yourself. Now, there's a bit less traffic in an elite race than most of our In The Beginning family will face on race day, with aid stations and turns — can you talk about how to navigate them?

[38:02] Difficult, very difficult. I definitely tried to get my fluids and fuel in early, because it's a lot harder to take on fuel late in a race — that's one thing I learned, especially with gels, I needed water with them because I used a thicker gel. How early would you take your first gel? Probably around the 15K mark. And one before the race — I'd always take one before, just in case, so if you

[38:33] don't get to that 10 or 15K gel in time, you've still got something in the tank. I'd use water to take the gel, not sports drink, to avoid mixing flavours — that can upset the stomach. But I'd use sports drink around 20K, and then flat coke toward the back end.

[39:04] Still with the flat coke, it's good, it's something. And what about, as silly as this sounds, running around a corner — positioning yourself for a turn? Again, you didn't have as many people around you in elite marathons, but some runners at Gold Coast this year will hit hairpin turns with a crowd around them — did you have a tactic for turns?

[39:36] I'd generally swing a bit wider and come in, because if you cut it too tight you basically have to stop — you want to eliminate that slow-down as much as possible around the corner. Swinging wide lets you carry a

[40:07] little more pace without breaking stride, because otherwise you feel tight or flat coming out of a corner from having to accelerate again — so you're keeping the pace higher the whole way through, essentially taking a racing line even though you're running. One thing I'd add for anyone running it — on the way back up north last year, I

[40:37] almost went over on my ankle a couple of times, because as you come back past Cavill there are those traffic islands in the middle, and with so many people around you can't see them coming until you're on them. I was running with the 3:20 pacer group and nearly rolled an ankle twice. So be mindful, particularly heading back up through Cavill, of those islands, because by that stage you're 25K in and a bit

[41:07] fatigued, and you get a little lazy with foot placement. The other thing, on drink stations — grab one and keep going, don't stop. That's the other one that can create a bit of a crush — just grab a drink and keep moving if you can, because otherwise there's too much congestion, not just for you but for everyone behind you. This is a pet peeve of mine — people who grab their drink and then just

[41:07] stop right there to drink it. I've always wondered — the camber on the road, does that matter over the length of a marathon? Do you try to find the flat part, or avoid it? I don't really think about it, to be honest — I just follow the blue line, quickest way home, that's how I look at it.

[41:37] Especially once the pacers pull out of a race, it's just, follow that blue line, quickest way home. For anyone who doesn't know the Gold Coast Marathon and might be running their first one — there's an actual painted line on the road representing the official marathon distance. Yep, just follow the blue line and it'll get you home safe and sound. And apex the corners, take the racing line on the turns.

[42:09] You've talked about the sightseeing section and then the back end, where the race really begins for you — aside from everything you've advised so far, have you got any tricks for those last six K's? Probably, as you go along, get a song into your head that you like — hopefully one you don't mind — it can help break up a kilometre.

[42:39] You start singing it in your head, and before you know it, a kilometre's done — one kilometre less. Then you think of another song. If it's a really good song, it can give you a little spur to the finish. Or think of a training session you've done — I've just got one of those reps left. Those are things I used, especially because I trained a lot in the Nerang Nature Reserve — if I had a K to go,

[43:09] I'd think, just one more straight, one more straight to go — that helped calm the stress and the burning sensation, keep going, keep going, you've only got one more, and you break it right down, it's not that far to go, and you just change your — what was the song you used to run through your head?

[43:40] Honestly, I can't remember — whatever was on the radio last, probably. Just bring something into your head in those tough sections that takes you to a happy place, is probably the best way to describe it. I want to go back and watch the Commonwealth Games marathon footage now to see if I can spot Mike mouthing Back in Black. Did you have anything like that as a mental distraction when the legs started burning?

[44:11] I can't remember songs, no — I used to count. I used to count steps: ten steps on one

[44:11] leg, ten steps on the next. But most of the time in the race my mind would be locked on — am I not counting, or what do I need to do to catch that person, or what do I need to do to stay away from that one, and cadence was another big focus — concentrating on form, keeping my cadence up so I'm not getting bogged down. That was a big one. It's the same as the back end of most marathons —

[44:42] it's a good thing to think about, because as you start to lose your cadence you get heavier, your hips drop, you start to fall apart. Everyone's got a different cue — we've talked about them a lot. Did you have a cue like, if you start overstriding, pushing too hard, bring it back — anything like that you'd actually think about while running? At times, running hills, we'd be going up and I'd

[45:12] say, run the same cadence, keep it the same. Well, I'd actually cut my stride going uphill. Cut your stride? Yeah — which is the opposite of what most people do, driving harder up a hill. I'd cut it so I wasn't building as much lactic — my legs weren't putting through as much force. I don't know why, but if I put too much force through the stride it just felt heavier and heavier, so cutting the stride back worked better for

[45:43] me. That's the main one I remember, cutting the stride and getting up there — it felt easier at the time, whether it was actually more efficient or not, but it worked well for me. I think it worked because I used to follow your lead and do the same thing — I'll often mention, when I give advice on this show, it's not really advice, just what worked for me over time. And a lot of that comes from — nothing's new, right — taking information off different people over a career. And a lot of the more pure

[46:13] running stuff comes from spending a lot of time running behind Mike, watching and thinking, why is he so efficient, how is he holding that pace? I'd be able to run three or four K with him and then start dropping off, and I'd be trying to work out why I couldn't keep the same cadence, what I was doing differently. In the end I just wasn't as good a runner, that's what it came down to — but I learned a lot about how to improve by watching

[46:47] one of our best marathoners in the country operate in those sessions. He's always trying to figure things out, always needs a solution for it. Courtney's brain needs a solution to find peace with things — as you guys were talking, and again, both Olympians, both Commonwealth Games gold medallists — my brain, when I'm breaking up a run, like I did on the weekend, knowing I had 800 metres, I break it into laps of an athletic track — I can't help but break things

[47:17] into 400-metre blocks, because that's one lap of the track, one lap of the track — or if I'm going out longer, it's, cool, I've got a parkrun left. Parkrun's the right measure, athletic track always does my head in. I've tried, but even, okay, I've got ten athletic tracks left, that's ten laps if I've got 4K to go — that's just how my brain works. I'd use lamp posts in a marathon, or something like that.

[47:48] That's a good one, if you can see something as a little goal — get to the next one, just get to the next one. Thinking about the course specifically, that's a good one running both directions — heading back up north after the turnaround, along the beachfront, and once you're past Australia Fair you could map yourself against traffic lights too. Or intersections,

[48:18] cross streets — not a bad one to measure by. Gold Coast is a great course for landmarks, especially being out-and-back, you can really pick them out — we've got high-rises everywhere. High-rises are always easy, and food destinations — good for the cafes. You're thinking, where am I going after this — exactly right, that's the reward for your effort, that's the other thing —

[48:50] reward for effort. I'll have chocolate — I remember after every long run in summer, we'd say, I'm going to get a jumbo frozen Coke, wherever it was, Macca's or Hungry Jack's, we'd have a jumbo frozen Coke, a little reward for the long, hard effort in Nerang Forest, because it was hot. Yeah, I'm going to get a Slurpee. It's going to be a jumbo — well, or just a large, but if it was really hot, yeah, jumbo. Simple as that,

[49:21] all the rewards. Reward yourself for a hard effort — that's how I rewarded my daughter on the weekend after her win, let's get a Slurpee. Same thing with nutrition — in the end you just want sugar, something cold, and the easiest, quickest way to get that is through a drive-through. Now, I know you're desperate to talk about shoes — quickly before we move on from the course, you've given us some nice insights, some tricks people can use on

[49:51] race day. Finish-line thoughts, finish-line feels, the last hundred metres, the kick — can you talk through that? One thing I always say to myself, whether racing a half or anything, is if I still feel like there's something left in the legs at 5K to go, I force myself to hold back, because I know if I kick at five, or try to see what's left at five,

[50:22] by the time I've got three to go I'll be cooked. So when would you typically try to empty the tank? Depending on how the day's going — that's the hard part, you don't really know until about 38K. That's where things are going okay, but the muscles start getting a bit sore, and at that point you just see how you go. Mostly it was the exhilaration and

[50:52] self-satisfaction of finishing that carried me through that home straight — thinking, yes, I've got this. You just tell yourself, come on, you're nearly there, you've got it, you've done the work, enjoy it, experience the crowd, because everyone will be going off, and you use all that energy to finish strong. That's the big thing, especially that last hundred — that's when you get the chills and the satisfaction of finishing a marathon.

[51:22] No matter what time it is, you've finished the marathon, and you deserve a pat on the back for getting through that — putting yourself through the hurt locker. No matter what pace you're running, you know you've finished a marathon and done a great job. Any carry-on at the finish line, ever, from you? Celebration-wise — yeah, I did — we won't go there. No, we've got to go there now. Commonwealth Games Glasgow — did you do a kiss to the crowd? Yeah, I did.

[51:52] It happened. Cringy? Pretty cringy, but you've just won the Commonwealth Games. A bit cringy, but a little bit of carry-on. And when I got home — it's the Gold Coast, what'd you do — something at Gold Coast I'm not going to go through. Three weeks afterwards, when it hit you, did you think, wow, I actually won this? It hadn't sunk in at the time, it was more just the emotion — obviously the Gold Coast

[52:23] one was special, with mum and dad, my brother, extended family, my grandma was there too, which was extra special, and schoolmates — I'm born and bred on the Gold Coast, so having a lot of that around made it extra special. So why didn't you ever run the Gold Coast Marathon? Just timing —

[52:54] most of the championships fell in that July–August window, and then I'd run one either at the start or end of the year, and it just never fit that gap I needed to recover and be ready to go again. I'm a bit old-school doing just the two a year, whereas a lot of people can do more, throw themselves into the world a couple of times in a few marathons — for me at the time it was just needing that recharge to be good to go again. It just wasn't the right time or frame, unfortunately — I did a lot of 10Ks on the coast

[53:27] and a few halves, but never got to run the full marathon here. Mike, as someone retired professionally for six years but still running 10Ks every morning after a couple of decades as a pro — what do you think of the running boom right now? The fact the Gold Coast Marathon sells out, there are all these other races, Sydney's a major, and suddenly this mythical distance is so

[54:00] accessible. It's fantastic, I love it. I remember mates who'd stopped the sport starting to get back into it and enjoy it, and I love that whole thing of getting out and having a run — it's great to see so many people out there. I think COVID played a part, with the lockdowns, people could only travel by going out for a run and getting fresh air, and I think that's probably what started it — people latched onto it and

[54:31] loved it, which is fantastic. I remember, ten years ago, running competitively — one of my mates was still out riding at the same time we'd be finishing a run through the surf area, and you'd see locals or tourists who'd had a few too many still out partying while we were starting our Sunday morning long run. You don't see as much of that now — there's a lot more people out being active,

[55:01] walking or running at the same time I used to be. It's great to see that change of lifestyle within Australia and even around the world, more people out there getting healthier and being active, achieving something for themselves. Yeah, it's cool, it's awesome. Let's get into shoes, Courtney. We talked earlier about how all Mike's PBs were done pre-super-shoe, but you're in the unique position now of getting to

[55:33] see all the different brands and types every day. There are a lot of runners doing their first marathon this year who've never lived in a world without carbon-plate super shoes — that's the shoe they'll do their first marathon in. How much do you think it's actually made a difference, and how do you think about shoes and what they do to your

[56:03] feet? I think there's always going to be innovation — like in tech, computers went from something like an Atari to what you've got in your hand now with far better graphics, there's always evolution, same with phones. In shoes, I went through the era of very minimalist

[56:33] shoes, that late-2000s trend — the Nike Free era — a lot of companies went toward a lower-profile, minimal shoe, and a lot of racing shoes were very light. Even at 2:12 I was still running in thin, minimal shoes. I remember wanting as little cushion as possible, thinking, I have to run a long way, I want it as light and reduced as possible. I did a lot of my training

[57:04] in a general jogger — nothing like the super carbon shoes today, which give a lot more responsiveness out of the shoe, and the cushioning takes a bit more of the impact out of your running. What shoe did you do most of your training in? I was a Nike athlete for a few years, so I used the Vomero mostly.

[57:34] Have you run in the super shoes much? I ran the 4%s at the Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast, in 2018, but never ran a full marathon in them — that was about twelve months before I retired. I ran a half in them, and they do give you a nice little kick, and I've run in them since — I ran a Gold Coast half a few years ago in

[58:06] the Under Armour Flow Velociti Elite, and you just know you get a much greater response out of the shoe. They have definitely improved, and that's why I think a lot of people are enjoying running more — running a PB and so on, the shoes are more helpful in that regard. I'd never thought about it — trail runners poke fun at

[58:37] the idea of super shoes being unnecessary at a certain pace, but fundamentally, if it makes running more fun, why not? Absolutely — regardless of how fast or slow you're going, if the super shoe makes running more fun for you, why not, it's still going to help. It doesn't matter what pace you're going, it's still going to provide the same benefit — maybe different levels of benefit, but still a benefit. A lot of them help with recovery too, because of the

[59:08] reduced impact, which lets you train that little bit harder, and at the end of the day that's what lets you run a bit faster or a bit further. Brand-agnostic — if you could pick three pairs for your rotation right now, what would they be? What am I actually running in at the moment, since I'm only running one shoe right now —

[59:38] the Under Armour Infinite Elite, just a general everyday jogger — I did a longer session in it yesterday, it was fine, great, did everything I needed. Everyone has different foot requirements — some people need support, some don't, some use orthotics, some don't — the best advice is just, find what works for you. Everyone's going to need something slightly different, and something one person loves, someone else won't.

[01:00:08] You've got to find what works for you. I probably lean toward something a bit lighter and more responsive — some people like more cushion, and there's always a trade-off. Too soft and it can create instability and wear quicker, too firm and it's uncomfortable and you don't enjoy running. So it's about finding what's going to work for you.

[01:00:38] Let me pivot Courtney's question slightly — say Michael Shelley decided to return to competitive running tomorrow, and needed two more shoes to go with that — a race shoe, and something slightly faster or a recovery shoe. What would you add alongside the Infinite Elite everyday jogger? I'd have to try a few carbon-plate shoes,

[01:01:10] to find something for racing — maybe the Vaporfly or Alphafly, though the Alphafly might be too responsive, could put too much pressure on the joints — or something in that mid-tier, closer to a race-day shoe, a lightweight tempo shoe without a plate. But I'd always have room for the jogger too — I love it, did a lot of my training in it because it helped reduce injuries, and they tend to

[01:01:43] last longer, which matters with the cost of living — you want to get the most out of a shoe and have it last as long as possible. I'd probably throw in something super soft as well, just for easy days — a strobel or soft foam — but I don't like something too bulky, that's the other thing, it just

[01:02:14] doesn't work for me if it's too soft — maybe it's just where I run, or that I don't have as much bounce in my stride, that could be the reason. But I'd definitely have to try a few, that's for sure. This is kind of the end point for every shoe conversation on this podcast — it comes back to you, your running, and your feet. Courtney let me try a pair of the Salomon

[01:02:46] — the dimpled ones, the golf-ball-textured ones. Compared to those, I ran the newer Aero Glides, big,

[01:03:18] quite chunky — I ran in them, super chunky, but I didn't really feel anything by comparison, versus the Genesis, an older, simpler style shoe, more like a traditional trainer — like a Pegasus trail shoe. Every brand has something slightly

[01:03:18] different in their range, so it's about finding what works for you — some are super soft, some are responsive, and for me I like feeling a little bit poppy, otherwise I can't get excited for my next session. That's the big thing for me. Great call on

[01:03:48] the super shoes or race shoes — go into a store and try them, because just picking based on what you've heard or seen could be completely wrong for you. And it changes model to model too — even the shoe you ran the four-percenters in back then could feel completely different in today's version, and another brand entirely might suit you better now. You've got to keep

[01:04:19] trying things, keep trying. Are you going to be there on race day — will you get amongst it? I'll be floating around, I've got a couple of friends running, I'll pop down to wish them the best. Have you thought about jumping out and doing some pace work? Haven't yet, no. You ran the half last year though — was that last year or the year before? The year before, that was to help

[01:04:49] someone through it — my wife did the full and I did about 30K, got to the hill and thought, yeah, see you later. What's it going to take to get Mock — I mean you — to the start line of the full Gold Coast Marathon? I'm honestly not sure I'm going to run another marathon. Really? Yeah, I'm not sure I want to run one — I went a bit further than I have in a long time yesterday, but I don't know if I've got another marathon left in

[01:19] me. I enjoy that 30K sort of range, but that little bit further, I don't know if I want to go back there. Different motivations, right, going back to work — yeah, a hundred percent. Never say never though — I actually told a few people when I was younger that if I ever started running marathons again, that would be it, done.

[01:05:49] To Events Management Queensland, who run the Gold Coast Marathon — money talks, that's all I'm saying. Put enough zeroes after it and we might get Michael Shelley on the start line alongside Courtney Atkinson next year. Michael, honestly, it's been a thrill to hear your expert opinion on the course — and getting you to actually verify a lot of the stories Courtney's told about you on your behalf has been amazing. All true, every bit of it. Thank you, and welcome back anytime — the door's open. No worries, thanks very much for having me, guys. Thanks, Mike.