EP12 - FLYATHLON = FLY FISHING x TRAIL RUN

[00:01] In the Beginning, episode 12 — the Dirty Dozen. We made it, Courtney. They said we'd never get to 12, but here we are. How are you? Well, you said that last week at 11, mate. We're going to be here for a long time, don't worry about that. We are flying — we've got a lot to get to on this episode. I do need to start off, Courtney, with some really direct, honest feedback I've received for you during the week." "Good or bad?" "From two people of note — Luttsy,

[00:31] friend of both of ours, Nova Breakfast host in Brisbane, and full-time Olympian and Olympic gold medallist Leisel Jones. Both listened to last week's episode and both had the same bit of feedback for you: that the Goodwill Games were held in Brisbane in 2001, not 1992 as you referenced. If anyone fact-checks half the stuff we say, they're going to find some stuff. So I just wanted to get that off the top. Let's be clear that we appreciate direct feedback — we've got it from two high-profile

[01:03] people from last week's episode. We will strive to be better. We will, we will. Now, we are going to allow you to have a bit of a science rant today because you want to bring some learnings, some scientific learnings from the world of running. So we'll let you get to that today — just not off the top, because we're going to start with something fun: the Nike Sunset Run. Yeah, so last Friday I saw you out there. How was it? What shoes did you wear?

[01:34] "How was it? Well, I've got a shoe review coming up later as well, we'll do that later on — the Pegasus 41s, the new Pegasus that have come out, which, as you referenced last week when we talked about them, have been around forever. They're a staple of the Nike range and I've had a roll around in the new Pegasus 41s." "Interestingly, I did a little bit of research — 1983 is about when they first came out." "Oh, that's way before my time of running, even as a kid."

[02:06] "But I definitely ran in the Pegasus as a kid." "Well, there you go — the Pegasus as a shoe is a year older than I am as a person. But let's talk about the event itself. The Nike Sunset Run is what it was called, and people might remember when you were in Santa Monica over at the Red Bull Institute a couple of episodes back, you shared that video of the run club you got involved in with the person running with their speaker on

[02:37] their back, and I think my direct quote at the time was 'that's not for me, that's not my run club.'" "I can 100% recall that." "Well, it turns out it is for me, Courtney, because—" "Oh, you flip on everything." "The old phrase 'don't knock it till you've tried it' could not ring truer than it did for this Nike Run event. So basically the premise was a Sunset Run 5K loop out at the Spit, Doug Jennings Park in Southport.

[03:07] And the way it was set up, you had a decked-out Nike-branded Jeep with a DJ in the back acting as the pace car at the front of the race, and realistically you probably didn't go any faster than maybe five-minute pace for the entire thing. There would have been — I'm going to say — 400 people there. Big turnout. Everybody had the opportunity pre-run to go and swap out whatever shoes they were

[03:37] wearing if they wanted to try a pair of the Nike Pegasus 41. So it was a marketing exercise for Nike, let's not be naive about it. But halfway round the second loop, about three and a half, four Ks in, I suddenly realised I was having a lot of fun. There's music the whole way round, there's signs the whole way round, and I had a moment where I went, 'oh my God, I'm enjoying this. I'm enjoying this a lot.'" "Were you up near the front, near the car?"

[04:08] "No, I wasn't even up near the car — I jumped in with Whippet and a fellow who's the sports editor of the Gold Coast Bulletin, and we were just chatting. We were about mid-pack, rolling along, talking, high-fiving people as they were coming back the other way. There was a real vibe to it — and I hate using that word, but there was — it's park run for the DJ crowd. I found myself having

[04:40] a chat with a couple of people from Nike afterwards, and we talked about the idea that something like that — not necessarily a Nike Run thing, but if there was an event like that every Friday — could be the start of some people's nights out. That could be the thing that sets up their week. They said instead of pre-drinking somewhere, this generation, this movement we're experiencing at the moment, is doing something like a Friday night pre-run — a pre-weekend run. It could totally work.

[05:13] "Yeah, it was awesome. We've been talking about the festivals, and this is kind of like a prelude to that. I'm going to let you off with this one — I'm cringing on one side, and on the other side I can see how excited you are about it, and I get it. What I was interested in — I think I wrote you a message last week — when you got the invite, I wasn't sure if it was just going to be ten of you, an exclusive thing. But you've surprised me."

[05:43] "The fact was it was obviously an open event, anyone could show up." "Yeah, no, it was. I got a personal invitation, and some other people were personally invited, but then it was an open registration thing, and they had hundreds of people register for this. It was a proper — the car park was jammed, there were people parking all the way down near SeaWorld to get up to this thing. It was pretty much a festival. It was pretty much a festival,

[06:14] and after you finished the run, the DJ who'd been in the car kept on spinning tunes. They had some food going around, no beers or anything, but they had drinks and stuff. So I had a quick chat with Brie Masters, Australian Olympian who was out there as well, part of LSKD, and there were some other athlete types around. It was a great vibe, and I walked away going, I can see how this works and I can see why

[06:47] people like it — I was on board." "You're on board, you're sold. When's the next one?" "Well, I don't know — this is what I said to them, is this going to be a regular thing? And they said this is very much a test run, they didn't know how it would go on the Gold Coast. They've had one in Sydney which didn't get rained out, but they didn't get the sunset they were chasing. This is the first one they've done on the Gold Coast and it was a huge success." "Great, well, there you go — Nike Sunset Run gets a big tick. I'm looking forward to the

[07:18] shoe review." "Because, like I said, I've looked at a bit of stuff on the Pegasus line. What else — you're down in Sydney, I saw?" "I've been down in Sydney for a birthday, no work-related movements down there. But I love running the foreshore, the prom here on the Gold Coast, I think it's awesome. I love running the trails in the rain. Centennial Park is the greatest casual run loop in Australia." "No, I'm going to disagree with that, but anyway."

[07:48] "It is what it is — it gives you the environment, the proximity to everything. The fact that you can run path, you can run cement path, you can run trail, you can trot your horse—" "You can trot your horse." "—the diversity of people in there doing different stuff, it is, I think, the greatest casual run you can find in Australia, just from a levels perspective, because anybody from a first-time runner to elite runners can get something out of running

[08:19] there." "Sure, you're gonna get a challenge from the Melbourne crowd and the Tan down there." "Yeah, OK, what — I probably haven't run the Tan enough." "You've got an advantage when you've got, what is it, how many million people around there." "True, of course you're gonna get a crowd. The other thing I had out of the weekend, I was at this 40th and found myself talking a lot about running with people — there was one fellow who said 'I don't really classify myself as a runner,' and I said 'how much do you run?' He said 'I do my 10K run every weekend.' I said 'you're a runner, mate.'

[08:50] And then I started talking to him about shoes and what he wears. But then he handed me — I don't even know if it's a backhanded compliment, I think it's a flat-out insult — when he said, 'you don't really have the physique of a runner, do you, Liam?'" "Well, have you been working out in the gym? They might have changed you in a week." "Oh, that's a question I have for you — not the Nike run, was it shirts on, shirts off?" "Oh, very much shirts on. Very much shirts on. There was, there was no, I

[09:20] didn't think about that at the time, but no, mostly shirts on — I'd say probably 99 out of 100 shirts stayed on." "Wow, good crowd. So I've been down in Sydney a bit, a little bit of travelling, and trying to switch myself back into trying to up my case, because I've been averaging about 40 Ks a week at the moment, so this week moving forward I'm looking to up and get back above that 50-to-60K range per week." "Nice, what about you, what's been going on? Who or falling — well, the reason we're not in

[09:51] the same room today is I've ended up in Falls Creek. No, I'm not here doing a run camp — anyone who follows running will know Falls Creek not only for skiing, but obviously the best runners in the country come here to do their summer camps. I'd never been here before, and I've gone out and had a few runs and seen some of what everyone talks about — the Aqueduct, and the different trails, the road, and everything that goes on.

[10:21] But I'm actually here working — I'm on a ten-day trip with Subaru, we're filming some new cars but also doing some adventure stuff around it. You'd remember Andrew Daddo, from the Daddo's on TV — yeah, so I'm pretty much doing a show with Andrew Daddo, which is kind of like a getaway show, I suppose, a travel show mixed in with a heavy infomercial of some Subarus." "Branded content." "Branded content, yeah. So that'll end up — I'm not sure

[10:51] when I'll end up on TV, but at some stage. The beauty is I got to Falls Creek to come and check out what I've heard about literally decades of runners coming up. And I caught up last night with Collis Birmingham, who's the coach of Brett Robinson and most of the Melbourne Track Club as well. Had a beer with him last night and got the lay of the land, because I had this perception of coming to Falls Creek that during summer, as a runner, you can just rock into town and it's

[11:23] literally going to be runners everywhere in town — every hotel's booked out by runners every morning, there's these big groups and you can just go and join in. Well, that myth got busted really heavily, because I was here for one day and I still hadn't seen a runner. Then I was actually filming mountain biking yesterday, that was the segment we were doing — I was having a lot of fun up on top of the summit riding trails and that type of thing. I came back in the afternoon to

[11:53] have a run, and I went up to the Aqueduct, where it's just a flat trail up the back of town, and I saw the runners in the wild for the first time. I was running easy, and I'm coming up, and the first ones I saw were a young girl and a young guy decked out in Nike, and they were doing their run-throughs — they were like gazelles. I was like, 'oh, OK.' Now tell me if I'm wrong, and I asked this question to Collis last night too — I was running with my phone.

[12:24] "Yeah, I was doing the whole — you know — this is, can you be a runner and run along with your phone in your hand? Is that etiquette, is it the right thing to do? I was actually listening to a podcast, and I was running along, and I found myself half-hiding the phone when I saw them. You got runner shame." "I got a bit of runner shame, and I asked Collis last night, does that discount me from being able to turn up to their group if I'm running with a mobile in Falls Creek? And it was kind of a little bit of 'yes',

[12:54] but some of the younger crew, I got the information, do run with their mobiles if they're doing easy runs. So I'm kind of on the fence a little bit. Anyway, long story — caught up, saw a few more runners out doing their easy arvo run, ran into Brett Robinson, who we've obviously talked about on the podcast — and we're going to talk about again in a moment because he's just lost the record, but we'll get to that. Former Australian marathon record holder — and Collis invited me to go and do the Ks this morning at 9:30, and I

[13:28] politely declined." "What?" "Well, we thought we'd be feeling it — it's torrential. Yesterday was bluebird, and today's mountain weather — it is raining sideways. I think it was one degree this morning and I was a big pussy, I decided I'm gonna leave it, I'm gonna come and chat to you." "OK, go down and run this afternoon." "But I did also catch up — this will give you an idea of what

[13:58] goes on — I end up going down and having a coffee downstairs with Richard Phillips, who's the GM of the resort, runs all the ski lifts up through here and everything, and mate, I was talking business." "OK, as long as you're networking the important things." "As long as you're networking, I'm OK with that — because I was about to implement an In the Beginning Podcast running policy, which is if you're invited out for a run experience, you're not allowed

[14:28] to say no." "Well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna try and make the 5:30 easy run, I think that's probably a better proposition for me this afternoon, because I saw their easy run — I think Brett's easy run the other day was still four-fifteens or four minutes or something, so flat out flat stick for me. Let's talk about Brett, because you mentioned him a couple of times — for those who've been playing along with In the Beginning since the start, you'll know a bit about Brett, but if this is where you're jumping in: Brett Robinson is someone we put

[14:58] up on the pole of the most well-known Australian runners, along with Steve Moneghetti and, until this weekend just gone, Nedd Brockman. Brett was the holder of the Australian marathon record — he no longer has that record. That record now belongs to Andy Buchanan, who at the Valencia Marathon over the weekend ran an astonishing 2:06:22." "That's quick, isn't it? I think, I reckon what's

[15:28] happening is it's a bit like back in the day with the mile, the four-minute mile, but for the Australian men's marathon at the moment — I think they've cracked the glass ceiling after years and years, and I reckon you're just going to see multiple runners now continuing to push this record down and down. I'm sure Brett — he's up here training hard now, but he's got something to say about that very soon. I did notice when we were talking about Brett — Brett is half of the

[15:58] Kudos podcast, great podcast, so we obviously talk a lot about Queensland running stuff, and they're obviously from Victoria — and I noticed when I first ran into them last night, Collis jumped in the middle of us and said, 'you podcasters, now get off.' And I said, 'mate, I think our content's a lot different to what Brett talks about,' and they're a bit different speed to what we talk about, but there was a bit of banter there. To jump back to Andy's record for a moment,

[16:32] Valencia Marathon, a really flat, fast marathon — the time he set, 2:06:22, was over a minute quicker than Brett's former record, which he set back in 2022 in Japan. For the humble runners like me, that time of 2:06:22 works out to three-minute kilometres for an entire marathon. I was talking with my brother-in-law about this last night, about the fact that let's say

[17:02] Andy entered the finishing chute — say the finishing chute was 300 metres long — I still wouldn't be able to beat him down the finishing chute. That's the speed he's running at. I still wouldn't be able to outsprint him fresh, and all I'd have to run is that 300-metre finishing chute — he's got 42-point-whatever behind him and he's still beating me down the chute. It's a monumental race. And I guess the other thing is, the other thing about marathon runners in this country, and to the average runner as well, we kind

[17:35] of just assume Australians won't win the marathon on a global stage, because we know about the Kenyans and the Ethiopians. And he was only four minutes behind the winner in this race. That's a big gap, sure, but he's there, he's in the mix. And his time has qualified him for the World Championships next year, because he ran under that 2:06:30 mark.

[18:06] "Yeah, I think it's easy to sit here and throw times around, how far people are behind, like they're running triple as quick as you or me. But I think what it shows now is around that 2:06 mark, and getting down to those — all the guys, not just Andy — the top guys can now go to international marathons and be in the mix. And I think that's the key, right? They're not going to win the World Championships,

[18:36] they've still got a way to go — but they are in the mix at major marathons, which, if you look at the progression of those times since probably the early 2000s, back to the Steve Moneghettis and the people we've talked about prior here — I really think now, with this momentum, they've broken through that ceiling, and you'll see a lot more competition from Australian men, and this is going to get quicker and quicker, and they'll start heading towards the

[19:06] front of the race. And to sort of compare — this is what we see in Australian basketball, right? Because the sport is popular in this country, but it takes an Andrew Bogut, or a Ben Simmons, or a Josh Giddey, for people to suddenly believe, 'oh, we can produce world-class basketballers.' And then you see the surge in your Patty Mills, your Joe Ingles, and you see

[19:37] these blokes doing it at the elite level, not just making up the numbers but competing — that's when you see the surge in popularity go, and all of a sudden the belief permeates through the junior levels. Then you see kids like Dyson Daniels — for those who don't know, playing with the Atlanta Hawks this year, being talked about as defensive player of the year. When you talk about Brett and Andy doing what they're doing for the men, you'll see that belief come back into the kids running these distances, and not just the blokes.

[20:08] I mean, Izzi Batt-Doyle in that same Valencia Marathon ran the third-fastest time by an Aussie woman ever." "Yeah, so she's flying as well — and she's the one who missed out on selection at the Paris Olympic Games during that whole controversy this year." "Yeah. So at the pointy end of Australian marathon running, you could argue we've never been better — right throughout middle-distance running and everything at the moment, running's just — it's a good time for it to boom, because the majority of people who are listening to

[20:38] us are probably more — I shouldn't say amateur, but more the people who love running and get out there and run. We need more people to understand, and more people to — inspires is the wrong word — but just appreciate that right now, Australia's not only in its running boom at the participant level, it's in its running boom at the elite level as well. And we, as a country, love nothing more than the notion of punching above our

[21:11] weight on a world scale. We love it whether it's Tim K, or the NBL, those basketball guys I just mentioned, the tennis stars — this idea that this country, down under, with what, twenty-five, twenty-six million people these days, is suddenly competing on a global stage — we love it. That's when the generic casual fan shouts and goes and buys the supporter gear or whatever. That's a hundred percent where we are with marathoning right now.

[21:41] "And it'll be interesting to see how long — this is the thing with sports and trends, and we love looking at how different sports go through this phase. I was a triathlete, right, so I was involved in the triathlon boom, and in men's Australian triathlon we would have had six of the top ten in the world. I came through on the back of that, and you get to reach levels, but you've got this benchmark you can aspire to that's one of the best in the world. So that's now happening — I'm seeing that in the running space.

[22:12] We've seen it in cycling too, probably from the days of your Robbie McEwen and your Cadel Evans — they excelled at the Tour de France, and now you've seen a long list of younger guys who've come through after them and been the best in the world and successful — cycling's having its time right now. Well, yeah, and we could sit here and do this for every sport in the world, but just quickly, the other point of comparison, particularly on the female front, is football — what Sam Kerr and that Matildas team have done in the past two years. Put the Olympic failure

[22:44] aside, the World Cup performance last year — the growth in women's football in particular in this country is being driven by that underdog Cinderella-type story at the elite level. So I guess, for us doing this podcast and for people involved in the running community, the excitement at the elite level is really going to be what happens come the Brisbane Olympics, what happens come the LA Olympics — because these athletes who might be being inspired now,

[23:14] with four years, eight years under their belt, who knows — it's not ridiculous to suggest an Aussie podiums at an Olympic marathon in the next two Olympic Games. And what we're seeing right now, this whole notion, is trickling down into the marathons. Excuse me — Gold Coast Marathon, yesterday, website crashed.

[23:45] We're recording this — for context, we're recording this episode the day after the Gold Coast Marathon entries opened. The half marathon sold out in 12 hours. They've already made adjustments to the 2025 Gold Coast Marathon to accommodate more — they used to have the 10-kilometre race the same day as the marathon, on the Sunday. Next year they're moving the 10-kilometre race to the Saturday, the same day as the half marathon, so that more people

[24:16] can compete in the full marathon. Mate, it's great, it's so good to see what's happening. I felt like I was getting messages all yesterday — did I get in, I paid but I haven't got my email — it was a bit of a debacle but it seems to have sorted itself out now. I'm seeing everyone this morning getting their emails that they're in. I think in one way it's a bit of a shame — actually, it's not a shame.

[24:50] It's hard, because there are a lot of people who want to wait closer to race time to be able to go, 'can I do this, am I going to be working, am I really committed' — I haven't entered yet, I'll be honest, I'm kind of half-thinking I will commit. But this spot's come up at the last minute, people get injured and all of that. But what's happening now is, for everyone who's entered, it gives you the best timeline to get prepared as well — so there's no excuse of 'oh, I didn't have enough time' or 'I decided at the last minute.' If you've entered this

[25:21] far out, you may as well start planning now. Don't start training for the Gold Coast Marathon yet, because you're not going to make it, you'll break before then. But get yourself geared and ready — if the Gold Coast Marathon is your pinnacle race for next year, when it comes to that 12-to-16 weeks out, you can hit the ground flying and know exactly what you're in for. I'm going to bring this up in a

[25:52] couple of eps down the track, maybe even in the new year, because the other element to all this — this marathon boom, this fitness boom — is a financial one, because the cost of entry to some of these things now is such that I think people are starting to plan their years based around one event. I won't go into it now, but I've started to look at some of the numbers around this stuff, and it's something event organisers and tourism industry bodies need to start considering — whether the

[26:24] cost of entry into these events is prohibitive, because some would argue it already is, and some would argue it's certainly becoming that way. We'll stop it there for now. But to go back to the excitement around the marathon season — I mean, this is the line in the sand, it's before and after this time, because we know Sydney's now a major, we know what Melbourne did. Gold Coast last year — remember, for the 2024 marathon it sold out by Christmas, and we were all shocked

[26:54] that by January you couldn't get a ticket into the Gold Coast Marathon anymore. That will be absolutely surpassed by the time you're listening to this on your Saturday morning or Sunday — it's sold out, I don't reckon you can get a ticket. It's like I said, mate, it's great, I love the idea of this for running. The other thing I'll say, Courtney, to anybody listening — if you didn't get a ticket, put your name on the wait list, because they come up,

[27:25] they put them on now, and don't — because you'll get a spot, you'll get a spot — but put your name on that wait list, and don't be disheartened by not having a physical ticket yet, because there will be people who've already jumped in who'll get to February and go 'oh no, I'm not doing this.' Don't wish it on anyone, but people do get injured training for a marathon and can't complete it — that's just the nature of the game. Do you want to talk some science? We're going to let—

[27:55] "I scoffed at you last week when you mentioned science, but I've had the scientific community reach out to me and say, 'Liam, how dare you dampen the fire of Courtney in the science world, let him speak his science.' Well, it's not my science, but it's going to back up — if you've listened to a lot of the episodes you'll start to understand my simplistic approach to training methods, keeping the KISS principle, keeping things simple with so much technology

[28:25] in the world available today and everything else going on. Interestingly, I asked the Melbourne Track Club crew, Collis, last night about whether they use lactate — lactate training heart rate or whatever it is — and they still, of course, go and do some testing and everything else. They've actually got a sports scientist with them in town right now watching their training, but at the same time they're not using lactate monitors after every rep in training. He was talking a lot more about how sometimes you just have to let the body guide

[28:56] where you are — and if you're a little bit over it, sometimes that's fine, if you're a little bit under, that's the perfect spot too. It's just working it out on feel, and your body doesn't have to be 100% precise. Now, the person I'm going to use as the example, we're going to try and play this clip for you — this was on the Greg Bennett podcast, an ex-Australian triathlete. I'll tell you a little story about Greg before I get into this. When I was 17 and with Triathlon Australia,

[29:29] at the time I'd just won the junior Australian championship in triathlon, and that year, instead of taking six senior males to Europe, they decided to take five senior males and the winner of the junior race. So as a 17-year-old I shipped across to Germany and lived with Greg Bennett — he was one of the best in the world. As a 17-year-old, in pre-phones — we were still dialling home with phone cards — we'd get a stipend, a bit of money from the

[30:00] government each week to live on, for our groceries, and we'd pull it all together. True story — the guys who were in the room at the time, we used to stash the cash in the cupboard, it was Deutsche Marks at the time. We'd stash the cash and buy our food for the week, and then the other guys would take the rest of their money and — I don't know if I should say this — go and buy porn magazines. Greg's got it, there were a few

[30:30] of us in there, and I tell you, I grew up so bloody quick. I was living with — there was Chris McCormack, Greg Bennett, all these guys in one unit over there at the same time. I'm this 17-year-old, first time in Europe, shipped around the world, mate. It was some good times. I actually had my 18th birthday there — obviously pre-drinking age, but had my 18th birthday with that whole crew. Mad times. Anyway, Greg does an amazing—

[31:03] So this was episode 256 of his podcast, which is all based around talking to people about high performance — not what we generally talk about. He was interviewing Olav Aleksander Bu, who's the coach of Kristian Blummenfelt, who arguably is one of the best triathletes ever. People claim him to be the one who designed the Norwegian method. He was talking about technology, so this is what they had to say.

[31:33] "This is a conversation I've had with a lot of people — what kind of tech should we all be bringing in, what's the one you'd gift to a friend? It gets expensive, so is there one thing, one product — a garment, an Oura, a Whoop, any of these other tools — you'd go, hey, this would be a great one to put in your toolkit?" "I would say Whoops and Ouras are, unfortunately, not my—"

[32:04] "Didn't really want to answer, did he? For me, it's important that what you use is reliable, and this is sound technology — I'm a big fan of first-principle thinking, and dividing into different orders, and looking at what this technology is really doing to output a certain number. For me it helps often to assess these technologies, or whatever we do — even a

[32:35] training programme — by first principle: what are the fundamentals? For example, one thing I think most people don't realise today is that when you get a sleep score, that's so far removed from first principle, so many orders down the list, that it's not even a fundamental metric. It's not an inferred metric, it's not even a derived metric — it's basically a very speculative metric based on correlations, on models, meaning

[33:08] that it's an industry driven more by creating some kind of unique selling point to sell tech, than necessarily for the good of humanity." "OK, OK — this is why I only let you go into the science world a little bit. No, I'm kidding. But my takeaway from what he was just saying is you're

[33:40] talking about the coach of one of the greatest triathletes ever, and the Norwegian method — which we might get you to explain, in an average punter's version." "Well, don't turn our podcast off right now, go and listen to this episode on Greg's podcast, it's worthwhile listening to the whole thing. But interestingly, when Olav was asked about the Norwegian method, he said, 'we didn't design the Norwegian method.'

[34:12] Everyone else just told us we are the Norwegian method — they don't see it as a method, it's just what they do. But in theory, they've had such success in triathlon, and they use so much technology in monitoring their athletes. People claim they designed the double-threshold day, brought that into training. Runners will have heard that, and a lot of people on the internet have probably looked at it and gone, 'I'm going to do double

[34:42] threshold days, that's going to make me better' — but if you haven't got the background, that's also going to injure you. If you're an average runner like me, there is no need for you to do double days, no need for you to ever be doing the double-threshold day. But that's what everyone who's grabbed this information off watching these elites train ends up doing — making their own conclusions and telling others about it as if it's their own method. It was quite interesting to

[35:12] hear Olav say 'that's not our method, this is just what we do, everyone else has given us that name.' If you're an average runner and you hear someone use the phrase 'Norwegian method' — and this is skimming over and throwing a very broad blanket — it basically just means a lot of exercise done at a really high intensity." "Well, yes and no — it's definitely a broad blanket on that, it's definitely a lot of volume, but it's the way they've monitored — they

[35:46] use lactate models, lactate monitors in training, very specific levels of wattage or whatever else. But what I'm interested in — that's the Norwegian method — but what he's talking about here, this first-principle thinking, I think we can use across everything. It's what I've said a lot: if you just break down 90% of what you're getting told by companies, told about by the influencers, from

[36:18] information on the internet, it's marketing — the whole reason a lot of this is designed is for them to sell a product. And he's simply saying — to translate it in summary — that all of these certain devices are using models, a whole range of different metrics, to just spit out one simplified number that you're going to take for gospel and change everything

[36:48] in your life because your sleep was only a six out of ten last night. But it's not the actual metric you begin with, it's not the most simplified metric. It goes on to say that something like wattage on a bike is definite, heart rate is definite, but even heart rate can float with temperature, how you're feeling, heat, all these different things. So he's saying be very careful of what you're being sold, and think about it from that first

[37:18] principle — is that really going to help me day to day, is it a metric that's really going to help me, and is there something simpler I can be doing? Basically, listening to him talk, my takeaway was that he's saying it's mostly bullshit. But it's interesting, because I've got a Garmin Forerunner — that's the watch I run with, it's kind of the only type of smartwatch I've ever used since I've been running and doing triathlons as an average plodder.

[37:51] But interestingly, it gives me suggested workouts — that's just one of the features of the watch. Those suggested workouts are based on some of that data he was just talking about — some of the VO2 measurement it gives me, it's measuring my sleep at night, my stress levels, my temperature acclimatisation, and then programming those suggested runs to me based on that. Now, for the most part, I ignore

[38:23] the runs it gives me, because I don't want to train based on what Garmin thinks I want to achieve — I know what I want to run and what I'm training for, and the watch doesn't. But there'd be some people who go, 'my watch is telling me I need to do a 45-minute run at no faster than 5:30 pace, I'll do that,' or 'the watch is now telling me I need to do an interval session, I'll do that.' But yeah, there's a lot out

[38:53] there. Going back to what he was saying — pick and choose what you want to listen to. That's the thing — he's coming from a pure elite point of view, where if the data isn't specific enough for them to rely on, they're not going to use it. Speculative data doesn't come into their conversation or their training. A good example would be — you're using that Garmin heart rate watch at the moment, it's got an

[39:25] optical sensor on the wrist. What we do know is optical heart rate sensors on the wrist aren't necessarily the best way to get your heart rate — there are variances, and depending on how it sits on your wrist there's a whole range of things — they're not a perfect metric. Was I doing 208 beats per minute in the run leg of the triathlon? Probably not — so they may use that modelling, which isn't perfect, to then output what they suggest you do.

[39:58] So look, I'm not saying technology's bad — if that's something you're using, it's great that this information is available to us. But what I always preach is: just think about how much of this you really need. If you enjoy it, great, but get to the simple things — 90% of what's going to improve you is simply getting out there and doing the right training. And if you can keep that pretty simple and consistent,

[40:29] that's going to help you tenfold more than worrying about what your VO2 was according to your watch yesterday." "What is your VO2 max?" "Now, I don't care, we've talked about this." "But then, with all that being said, the data rabbit hole is a really, at times, fun and wonderful — like when you just disappear down the data rabbit hole, it can be an entertaining hour. So if you love your data, don't be disheartened

[40:59] or disgruntled by what Courtney's just said — keep on being that data bunny that you are. But just be aware, like we said, there's a reason behind every message out there, and you should do the digging to understand whether that's right or wrong for you. Let's leave it there — that was a very serious, digestible bit of science you just gave us. I'm going to jump around a bit here, mate, because we've got to

[41:29] get to your — I've got a shoe review for you, you do — but before that, last week I was talking about my favourite unique running events. We talked about the Beer Mile. Ethan Bryant sent me — I think one of the best niche events I've come across — it's called the Flyathlon. Flyathlon, and I'm going to read it from their website: it's down in Victoria, a novel trail running race where participants must

[42:00] run with their fishing gear and catch a fish during the race. A photo of the fish is taken against the official event ruler and then it's released. The size of the fish scored will result in a deduction on your running time — so this is literally fly fishing on the go, in a running format. Now, these are the rules: all fly-athletes must catch a

[42:31] fish and photograph it on an approved race ruler — failure to catch a fish results in a DNF. Only one fish may be submitted, and all fly-athletes must check in at the halfway point. So think of it — it's a trail race with a bit of fly fishing involved. What do you reckon of that one?" "I love the name, I love the Flyathlon, I love them being called fly-athletes. Doesn't this just scream boredom?

[43:03] Whoever came up with this was so bored one day — but at the same time, I love it, and if there was one happening here next weekend I'd go in it, because it sounds so ridiculous. Again, like the Nike Sunset Run, I don't want to knock anything until I've tried it. Now, I might try this and find it's insane, but it did bring to mind something I do have every intention of trying — Speed Golf." "Speed Golf?" "So Speed Golf is running golf,

[43:36] and they're awesome at it — basically they carry about four clubs with them, and the goal — I don't have the exact information, I'll do a deep dive on this and bring it to you maybe next week — but essentially it's race golf, you're trying to shoot the lowest score you possibly can while completing the 18 holes in the quickest time possible. And it looks like so much fun — with a proper golf course, not a frisbee-golf thing — you're playing the full eighteen

[44:06] holes of a golf course and running." "Maybe that's a golf I can get into." "I know, right — there are times when I play golf with mates of mine who are much better at golf but couldn't run the length of a par 3, and I just go — and then they see me run up a hill and they're like, 'why are you running?' I'm like, 'I don't know, it's open space, I'm like a puppy, I see open space, I just want to run up things.' But I feel like run golf would be an opportunity for me to level the playing field against some of my mates." "Yep, right, from now, this is an event.

[44:37] If it was on the Gold Coast, that would be me in golf." "I mean, you'd get me to golf. All right, we're going to look into this — we're going to look into a Flyathlon and we're going to look into a running speed golf event. All right, now let's get into these Pegasus, because — like I said, they debuted, and I've got the website's line: they've been known for their dependability and durability, and loved by runners across the globe,

[45:09] and what a segue, because it still rings true. Now I've got a pair of the 41s, the new former Pegasus I've been given — it's the white and fluoro yellow colourway, I think, which looks—" "Stylish, that suits you." "Let me — I'm going to try and do a non-technical review of these shoes, because I think we can talk about heel drop and all that sort of stuff, but basically here's how I'd sum up these shoes:

[45:40] if you're a person who's decided you've had enough of hearing everyone talk about their run clubs or their run plans for 2025, and you want to actually get involved — this might be the shoe for you. I'm going to describe it as the gateway drug of shoes. It's not going to scare you — this is not a big fat surfboard of a shoe, it's not a carbon-plate shoe, it is friendly, it is approachable. It's like the puppy at the park

[46:11] before you go and get involved with the big dogs. It doesn't have a massive heel on it, which might make you feel a bit tippy — and we've talked about the Salomon Spectres, which can feel a bit narrow and a bit tippy at times, but this doesn't feel like that. Courtney, you've talked about the importance of ground feel — when you're trail running, you can really feel the ground in these Pegasus. There's not heaps of foam in it. What do they call it — Reactx foam, maybe?

[46:46] Nike ReactX, I believe, if I'm reading my shoe right — so there's still a bit of that, but you can still feel the ground, not in a bad way. It doesn't matter what time it is, it's how it runs, right, who cares. In the end, the thing about the run of it is I don't think — this is going to sound weird — you don't feel obliged to run faster and further in them, like it doesn't feel like a shoe

[47:17] that makes you go 'oh gosh, there's a lot of energy return here, I should be running faster than I am.' And I think there's also that self-conscious attitude — if you're running around in a pair of Nike Alphaflys or ASICS Metaspeeds or anything with a carbon plate in it, and you're trotting along at five-and-a-half-minute pace or slower, you feel like you should be running faster. You're not going to feel like that in a Nike Pegasus. It's just an old-school runner — it feels like something your PE teacher back in high school would have run in.

[47:47] It looks a bit like that too — it doesn't feel like, you know, the PE teacher who used to tell you about what a great athlete they were back in their day, this feels like the sort of shoe they would have run in. Goes with short-short-short white ruggers — short, short shorts — those shoes would go well together. You will not be running in the Nike Pegasus if you're running in shorts that go past your knees. Now you've gone down that route — oh, like, in my

[48:18] mind I'm imagining those coloured Nike Pegasus, white socks, white short ruggers, and a wife-beater—" "That's exactly the outfit that goes with these shoes." "Yep, that's exactly the outfit that goes with these shoes, that's it. But here's what I'll say about them — I'm going to go for a run in them today after we get off, because I've run in them two or three times since and I've really enjoyed it. But here's the thing — I'm going to go for a run, then I'm going to go to the gym, then I'm going to go pick my kids up. This is a runner you can

[48:50] buy and do your 5-10K running, then go to the shops. If I see someone walking around the shops in Hokas, I'm like, what are you doing, why are you wearing those round soles? If I see someone with anything with a carbon plate in it, I'm asking why they're walking through Westfield Shopping Centre in those shoes. No one's going to accuse you of that in these shoes." "I'll agree — like I said, I've got that one type of stereotype for people wearing them." "You've nailed it, but there—

[49:20] but in short, I really enjoyed running in them. Off the back of that, because we talked about this particular shoe having such a legacy — I don't know what version this is, it could be like 41, 40—" "1983 was the first one, and this is 41 years later." "I'm not going to say it's 41 years later, it's 41 models later — but what that brings me to is, it's not this particular shoe, but there's an issue with shoes

[49:52] where — because we just talked about tech and the need for marketing — there's a need for shoe companies to continually reproduce a new model every year or so, to give you something new to buy, even in a shoe. But there've been certain shoes over time that I've just loved — it's like the perfect shoe — and then the new model comes, and it's worse than the model before.

[50:22] A good example in Nike — I don't know the exact model, but a few of my mates, like Al Stevenson from Brisbane, will remember this one — it was a blue model of the Vomero, and we all loved it, we ran in it for nearly all our runs except the track session. Then they changed the model and it went backwards. At that point what we all did was literally go around scouring to buy as many of those old models as we could, some of the

[50:53] other fellows were sponsored, so they just went straight to the factory. I remember at the time I was probably purchasing them and trying to get as many as I could of that model. I still know today — my brother and other people do this — when a new model comes and the new one doesn't suit them, they go straight to the factory and see how many of the old models they can get. I don't know about these Pegasus, but it is a problem in shoes. Have you had any of that in the past?" "Do you know, I haven't had it in shoes — what I've had it in is golf clubs.

[51:25] I've had it with — I'm trying to remember the name of it — TaylorMade had this with one of their golf clubs recently. Was it a putter? No, it was a driver — the Stealth driver, right, so they brought out the Stealth driver maybe three years ago, brand new technology, it had this trampoline effect off the face, everybody was raving about it. Then they brought out the Stealth 2, and there was a lot of feedback that this isn't a better

[51:57] driver — you've brought out a new model because that's what companies do, but it's not any better than the previous driver. Interestingly, on this point, I have a friend who I'll keep nameless just in case, but he's been with Coca-Cola for a long time, a marketing specialist, used to work for Nestle, with Coca-Cola now — and he listened back to, I think, whichever shoe we were talking about when

[52:28] we got into a conversation about the names and why they come up with such complex names." "Oh, was that the Adidas Terrex Agravic?" "Yeah, and so we went on that tear about why can't they just call things simple names." "Yes." "And he sent me a message — his theory was, he said, 'boys, why do shoe companies have such complicated names? Because you can't trademark generic names, and the more obscure the name, the less likely you can be accused of

[53:00] passing off or trademark infringement.' There you go — always good to have an expert put us in our place, I was like, what a great explanation. So for all you people out there who look at the name of anything, whether it's runners or any product you're about to buy, and go, why does this have such a ridiculous name — that's why. Because companies are trying to protect themselves from being accused of copying any other technology out there in the market. So I wonder how that Decathlon

[53:31] home-brand plated shoe got around that — that's very close, actually. Speaking of which, a little bit of a technical difficulty there, a first one for In the Beginning Podcast, Courtney — we were almost at the end, little stumble before the finish line, like tripping over at the 40K mark of a marathon, really. Yeah — well, we've talked a bit about technology and our own technology stuff quickly failed on us there. I was finishing the review of the Pegasus 41s, and what I

[54:01] will say is that next week, or maybe not next week, I really want to find the right opportunity to use them — I will be bringing a review of the Nike Alphaflys. Now, for those out there who've heard us talk about these things, these are the super shoe. I've been lucky enough to get my hands on a pair, and I don't feel worthy, but that's not going to stop me running in them." "Hey, I'd take them and run.

[54:31] Literally." "Review of those to come, we'll see. Well, talking about equipment we didn't need from Nike, I saw Nike have joined up with Hyperice — you know, like the compression boots and that type of thing they do, the compression rolls and a whole range of stuff. Well, they've joined with Nike to make a boot — it's the world's first

[55:04] therapeutic compression boot, and we'll put them up on the socials so you can see what they look like. This is something I'm going to say we never needed. I don't understand — what does it do? Think of an oversized — it looks like a moon boot, if you've broken your ankle or sprained it — a covered moon boot with some circle things on it. And what it is, is it's actually pretty much doing massage —

[55:35] compression through your lower limb and into your foot, just like a compression — well, they call them compression boots, I suppose. I've just lost the — the NormaTec things." "NormaTec, yeah, so they call them NormaTecs, but NormaTec was more for your legs, a compression, self-massage through your legs. Well, they've done this for a shoe, and they've done it with Nike.

[56:05] I don't know if we need it — I don't think we need it at all." "Yeah, no, because generally your feet don't get sore, it's not the muscles — when you're getting tired from running, it's your legs, your calves and your quads and your hips." "Yeah, well, look, it's like anything incremental — if you've got them, it's probably not the worst thing in the world to try them. But talking about the reason I was saying it's something we don't need — one of the things, if you're using a roller or some

[56:37] kind of golf ball or something under your feet to roll out and massage your foot — I find that's one of the biggest helps. When I finish running, or if I'm going to roll a roller on my quads and that type of thing, I'm always making sure I'm doing under my feet as well, because I reckon it's those muscles, that plantar fascia, and all of that — if you can keep that unlocked, it goes a long way to helping. And Nike already sells golf balls, so there's no need for them to invent something new for that.

[57:09] "Someone will think we're — we're not, we're not, we're not. Shout out to all the In the Beginning Podcast family who are already getting behind this show in a really big way, because the feedback we're getting is amazing, the interaction on the socials is great — In the Beginning Podcast on Instagram. Courtney, mate, before we let you go — where are you in Falls Creek right now, when's your return date, are you gonna be there for next week's record?" "No, I think we're gonna be — we will be online again. So I'm off to Bright tomorrow to

[57:39] keep filming the Subarus in their element, the all-wheel-drive element. And then I actually don't know where I'm heading — it's a nice place to be at the moment, because all I've got to do is turn up, they'll tell me where to be, what the call sheet is, what lines to learn." "You are literally like a professional runner right now, whose coach is saying 'this day you need to be here at this time, turn up and be ready.'" "Yeah, but tomorrow, from what I understand, we might be going caving.

[58:10] So that'll be interesting." "There we go, Cavey." "Must be nice." "There we are — alright, we've gotta get out of here. Next week, episode 12 — share it with your loved ones and keep on enjoying your running, Courtney. We'll see you next week."