EP 5 - RED BULL'S SECRET PERFORMANCE FACILITY

[00:00] In the Beginning podcast, episode 5. Courtney, good afternoon to you all the way from the US of A. Well, it is night time. Things change very, very quickly around here — since we spoke last week, I've ended up in LA of all places. Now we're going to get to that, because what you're doing over there for the fitness folk, for the runners, for just people who like looking at health stuff online, I'm really excited to hear about specifically. Before we get to that, we're going to kick off with the results from this week's In the Beginning Instagram poll.

[00:30] Which Aussie marathon do you want to run in 2025? We know marathons are having a moment in Australia right now — 40,000 people at the Melbourne Marathon Festival, 30,000 at the Gold Coast earlier this year, and Sydney's on its way to becoming a major. So the options were Gold Coast, Sydney, Melbourne or other. The winner: Gold Coast Marathon, in a canter, with 39%. Sydney 20%, Melbourne 21% and other came in at 20% as well.

[01:04] So there are other marathons people want to run just as much as Sydney and Melbourne, but Gold Coast is the runaway leader. Yeah, and there were great numbers who chimed in again — we're not talking about a few people here. Maybe we've got a bit of a skew of a Queensland audience, but I don't think so, because I'd find that Queenslanders probably want to travel. Maybe what we've got here is what we talked about — runs being experiences. Do the southerners want to come up to Queensland to run because it's a fast course? Well, they want to move up here, so it makes sense that they'd

[01:36] probably want to run up here. In fact, the day we're recording, I bumped into AFL player Jake Melksham, who's up here in his off-season — he's probably coming to the end of his career in the next couple of years or so — and he's talking about how wonderful it is on the Gold Coast, up here doing a bunch of fitness stuff and riding and all the rest of it. So it's an amazing place to live and train, and I can understand why 39% of people who joined the poll on Instagram wanted to run the Gold Coast in 2025. I do too. This is something we'll look at

[02:07] probably a bit later this year, because we know, Courtney, how quickly the Gold Coast Marathon sold out — the precinct sold out six months in advance for 2024. Well, it sounds like it's going to sell out even quicker on that poll. And there was a big announcement during the week for the Gold Coast Marathon — ASICS are now on board until 2032. It looks as though Gold Coast might be the Olympic marathon location as well, when the Games come to Brisbane. So marathon running is strong — we know it's strong in the country right now, but it's particularly strong on the Gold Coast.

[02:37] Are you sure on that stat about the marathon being on the Gold Coast? We've had this discussion, haven't we — triathlon on the Sunshine Coast, marathon on the Gold Coast? You and I had this discussion on a run previously about the idea that Noosa, which obviously hosts a world-class triathlon every year, and the Gold Coast, which hosts a world-class marathon — the early conversation was that the two would switch, that Noosa would host the marathon and the Gold Coast, because of the Broadwater swimming area,

[03:09] would be a better place to host the triathlon. Because, as you explained to me, the Olympic marathon — they can't hold the triathlon in open ocean. Well, I mean, they did in Rio, so it's debatable. OK, so I'm not sure exactly why that is. To put a pin in it — the ASICS announcement during the week didn't commit that Gold Coast would be the location for the marathon. It was more just a little bit of joining the dots, in

[03:40] that this new partnership has been made between ASICS and Event Management Queensland for the next eight years. And perhaps it's a logical, easy jump to make that Gold Coast would then be the venue for the Olympic marathon — but again, still up in the air. All right, with that long ASICS commitment, do they do a special shoe for the Gold Coast Marathon like they do for the Noosa Triathlon? Have you seen the Noosa

[04:11] Triathlon race shoe? I've raced in the Noosa Triathlon shoe a couple of times, I really like it. So do they have a Gold Coast Marathon version of that? No, they do not — if any of those folks at ASICS are listening, maybe you could add some insight there. I didn't think so, but I know they do the MetaSpeeds — they've had the MetaSpeed Paris and the MetaSpeed Tokyo, city-themed shoes previously. I'd love to run in a MetaSpeed

[04:42] Gold Coast. What would you put on a Gold Coast shoe? What kind of shoe would come out for a Gold Coast shoe? A MetaSpeed GC is what I'm going to call it — the MetaSpeed GC32, for the Olympic '32 look. For the colourway, you've got to think it's almost borderline fluoro yellow — it's got to be fluoro yellow and blues, bright, bold colours. Do you reckon they could just do a pair of thongs? So it's a running shoe, and

[05:12] just the graphics on it are literally a pair of thongs — so you've got however many people running the marathon on the Gold Coast, and it looks like they're all in thongs. Good idea — well, flip-flops if you're in the States. If there are any talented graphic designers or designers listening to this, feel free to design the Gold Coast Marathon shoe and we'll take it to ASICS. We'll come to some sort of agreement on a percentage split when these shoes go absolutely gangbusters. But of course, let's talk about you — why? What are you doing in the States?

[05:42] What are you doing abroad — nothing like organising a flight two days before you go somewhere! But look, I think all this talk of us doing this podcast, getting excited talking about running, talking about goals — obviously Red Bull heard that too. And after all the accidents we've talked about that I've had, my body's a little bit imbalanced, so I've decided to come over for the week to Santa Monica — Santa Monica and LA — to the

[06:12] Red Bull Athlete Performance Centre. It's not really a secret, but it's a bit of an exclusive performance centre — think something like the Australian Institute of Sport, but just for Red Bull athletes. There are two of them globally at the moment — I've got a feeling Christian Pfrengle is over near Salzburg at the European base, and I've come across the Pacific to the American base. So the goal for me is really about longevity, and really

[06:42] trying to work out where I'm going and what I'm going to do — let's get serious about it again. You come to this centre with experts across the board — medical people, strength and conditioning, psychologists, chiro, everything you can imagine under one roof, all the diagnostic equipment you need, ultrasounds, everything else. But I've come to them

[07:13] wanting longevity — my body's beaten up at the moment, I want to get myself balanced and I want to be running great again. 'Run Great Again' — that's a slogan, there's our first hat. But that would be a new challenge for them, because as you mentioned, Christian Pfrengle and I know Travis Stedman, another Red Bull athlete, have spent time at these centres too — and those are guys at their peak, looking to maximise their peak, less worried about how they're travelling in 10-15 years' time.

[07:47] How have they responded to the challenge of getting Courtney Atkinson fit and at his best for the long term? Surprisingly — in my 20 years at Red Bull, I've avoided this place, because they love testing you, and by testing I mean putting you through the ringer to get your data and everything else. What have they put you through? To begin with, I simply sent them all my scans from the last two years — I had a bad rolled ankle two years ago, which kind of set in a race, rolled the ankle, pulled some ligaments

[08:20] off the bone, and that really set everything in motion — I was a bit unbalanced, a little bit of stability issues. Then I had a calf go last year, and I think that stemmed a lot from that original ankle, plus three accidents on bikes and everything else over the past few weeks. So all in all, mate, I'm just a walking train wreck and we're here to straighten it up. So I sent the scans over, they looked at it, told me to get over here in two days, let's sort this out sooner than later. Went in for a physical assessment,

[08:51] to see how those older injuries have recuperated, with ultrasound — looking at the muscle fibres, where the nerves are, everything like that. Then the next stage is diagnostic testing — if you looked at my socials, and I actually shared it on the In the Beginning podcast socials as well, you'd have seen me on knee machines, ankle machines, doing all the baseline testing around where the strength is at the moment, where my weaknesses are, leg to leg. And then today we started on the

[09:24] process of small exercises to try and improve that. Saw a dietitian for the first time since my time at the AIS, probably six years ago — and that was an interesting experience, because I don't have the same goals as, say, a Christian Pfrengle or someone going to the Olympic triathlon is going for. I'm literally walking in there going, hey, I travel a lot in my daily life now, I'm eating at service stations, probably going through

[09:54] the Macca's drive-through a bit too much. So what do they say to that? The focus is on always thinking about it in specifics — you can look at yourself as an athlete generally, you can listen to all the elite information you can read on the internet and everything else, but I go in there with one problem I want to solve. From my diet perspective, the one problem I was trying to solve is that when I walk down the steps in the morning after getting out of bed, I am sore.

[10:26] Now most people go, well, that's age. Yeah, it is, of course it's age, but there's something more underlying there. I want to walk down the steps and not be as sore in the morning, so when I go out for my run, I'm ready to go and it's a little bit better. Now, we're not going to completely flip that, but I want to look at ways — with my daily life, the challenges of how I've got to travel and work and all the different commitments — how can I fix that up and go forward? So that's what we were talking about today. And did they give you something

[10:58] straightforward and tangible from a diet perspective? So we're going to focus on protein — and most people go, of course, that makes sense, recovery protein, you didn't have to go all the way to Santa Monica to know that. That's very true, but it's actually the timing of the protein, and also looking at how I've been eating daily and where I eat, how quickly I eat after training. It's more like, in a

[11:28] nutshell, the summary is eating protein more often during the day versus having larger chunks of protein just once or twice a day — turning you into a grazer instead of a binger. Yeah, but really focused on the protein, because from a calorie point of view I don't really have challenges — I'm not a massive eater and I'm still running a fair bit, so weight-wise, I'm not here to try and lose a massive amount of weight or anything like that. It was purely about how can I

[11:58] make my body feel better. And that's the same thing with all the diagnostics around trying to put the body back into balance, get equal drive off my calves. I'm only two days in, so I haven't got all the answers to that yet. But when we're talking about experts, the beauty, I suppose, of the Red Bull ecosystem in elite sport is we're not talking about just runners and triathletes — if I told you who was in there, I'd have to kill you,

[12:29] because that's a secret. But if you think about a centre — there's only seven athletes here this week, that's it. So you've got the whole centre, probably 20 staff, dealing with seven Red Bull athletes, and that's their problem. So as you can imagine, you get pretty specialised, personal treatment. Red Bull has F1 drivers, surfers, athletes within team sports all over the world.

[12:59] So yeah, I get the sense they have this ability to cater to athletes from all around the planet. Just getting back to the nutrition stuff — from you, someone who has been and is still at the elite level of competing, I'm listening to it as somebody very much on the amateur level, who could do with the very simple equation of operating in, what is it, a calorie deficit — basically using up more calories than I consume on a daily basis. And I think there'd be a lot of people out there who are the same, who could be

[13:31] a better runner if they were carrying a little bit less weight, just because it's easier to run when you're a bit lighter. But there would also be people listening who don't actually need to lose any weight, but knowing that there's specificity in the timing you eat your protein, and the way you eat your protein, would be really interesting for them as well. So — nice. So what's next? Now you've done the baseline testing, you've done the dietary stuff — how many more days are you there for? What else is on the

[14:02] plate? Yeah, so I'm here for the rest of the week — it's a Monday to Friday, five-day stint, and a lot of the work will actually be done once I get home, over the months and years coming, you'll obviously stay in contact. But tomorrow I'm in biomechanics, so I'll be on the big treadmill in the lab tomorrow. And most people, when they think labs and running, they'll be thinking of all the apparatus, the VO2 testing and all the oxygen — none of that for me, because like we said, there's a real

[14:33] single purpose to why I'm here, and it's around trying to get the muscles and the body back moving in the right way, getting mobility back, getting the muscles balanced again. So tomorrow's all about run biomechanics — I haven't done it yet. I'm sitting here listening to this and I wouldn't have thought you had deficiencies, just from how I've known you — you and I have run together and I know you're an elite athlete, Olympics and

[15:04] all that — but I wouldn't have thought you'd have deficiencies in your biomechanics from a running perspective. Well, whatever exists is going to be highlighted to me tomorrow. Even down to the basics, like calf size from leg to leg — I've got a quite large right calf, I'm pushing off differently from calf to calf. Now that's not an issue in itself, because it doesn't hamper my running,

[15:35] but if we start to talk about how to be most efficient and most economical, these are the small things we're looking at. So this is very different — we'll touch on it later — from running technique and cues, once we go through it, because I think it's important to differentiate what I'm talking about, around muscles and trying to become more efficient, versus actually trying to change your running style. So what I'm trying to do is utilise the muscles, push off the toes equally,

[16:09] versus having a favoured leg because of some of the injuries I've had recently — versus coming here to look at my biomechanics to completely change my running technique. That's something I definitely will not be doing, because I've had experience with that in the past and it's been an absolute disaster — but we'll get into that a bit later. So just to wrap up — I'm here this week with the surfers, there's actually a young lady from SailGP here. Oh wow.

[16:39] So SailGP, on the big boats — it's like what Kai Hurst used to do with these... yeah, pretty much, when both me and Liam here are turning our hands over on it like a witch, for those who can't see it — it's like when you see somebody who doesn't know what they're doing on one of those boxing bags, when you try to keep spinning the speed bag, that's what I'm talking about, except with a hand either side. I can't think of the sailing term for it, but there's

[17:12] skaters in there recovering, rehabbing, some people are just in training, and yeah, it's always super cool. And that's my favourite thing about Red Bull and being involved with that business — it's never about my sport, it's never about anyone's sport, we're all just one big group. I think the slogan in there is, you know, 'gives you wings.' It is a rare brand — I did see that on one of your socials as well. Over the course of this podcast, I'd like to explore some other parts of the Red Bull

[17:45] business and the stuff they do, because I love the brand and I think it's such a — the brand is everywhere. But I think some of the stuff they do is super cool. In fact, I was training this morning with a fella named Aza — Aaron Graham, who runs Pro Guarding, the lifeguarding service — and he's on his way down to Sydney because he's going to be doing the water safety for the extreme diving event happening down in Sydney, which Red Bull's involved with as well. So — Red Bull Cliff Diving world

[18:16] champs — yeah, they literally build a seven-storey-high rise on Sydney Harbour and jump off it. Nuts. You'll do that, right? No, no, that will never happen — I get weak knees on the three-metre springboard. Speaking of that, and I know you've got some interesting running technique stuff you've been discovering that we'll get to in a moment — quickly though, my week: I had a wedding down in Sydney, which was a pretty big wedding, I had a couple of dusty runs, I haven't been as active as I would have liked this week,

[18:47] but I did go train this morning — and we talk a bit about trying new things, and for you right now, dirt bike riding, you're a beginner, right? A rookie. This morning I did an exercise for the very first time and failed spectacularly. People would have seen it — surfers, watermen and women do this exercise, I don't know if you've done it — where you dive down to the bottom of the ocean

[19:19] with a rock and then try to run along the ocean floor. Have you ever done that? No, but I know exactly what you're talking about — and people out there will know what I mean too. Whippet, of Bondi Rescue fame, who runs these courses, had us do this in Currumbin Creek. We did it in partners — your partner would go down, run along with the rock, and as soon as they dropped it, you'd go down, pick up the rock and take it in turns, a little relay session. My partner started —

[19:49] and we've talked about how bad I am at swimming — there was quite a strong current running back in. The current was coming in and my partner dropped the rock, but we were at a depth where I couldn't get down to the rock, and by the time I got down to it, I couldn't pick the thing up because I was out of breath. So like everybody else, I was kind of dragging my way up the creek with these rocks. And meanwhile Micah, my partner,

[20:20] and I were just floundering back at the start line, because I just couldn't do it. What ended up happening is Micah went back down, got the rock and brought it to a shallower part of the creek, so I didn't have to dive down to pick it up, I could just bend over, pick it up and kind of walk. So you're at knee level? Exactly, I was at shin height with a rock in my hands. But then when we turned around

[20:50] and came back with the current, it was much easier. Micah said to me afterwards — my partner — that it looked awesome, I put my head under a couple of times, and it looked like the videos you see of somebody doing it properly. But it was humbling as hell. I enjoyed it and I'd love to try it again, but it was an incredibly humbling moment on the exercise front for me this morning. So that's your new challenge under the water there in Currumbin Creek — can you actually see down there, or is the

[21:21] clarity murky? Clarity was really good this morning, actually — no men in grey suits. Don't bring them up! I don't want to think about the bodies when I'm down there. If you're referring to sharks, there's no need to bring those up — we're talking about interesting group activities. Over here, staying down in Santa Monica, I walked down to the pier for dinner last night, and as I walked out I sent you this video of a run group

[21:51] under the pier — there would have been 200 people. But the crazy thing was, and I haven't seen this before, three ladies in the group had a boom box attached to their back, like a boom box backpack, and then they all ran off. Interesting — what do you think? I've got a very strong opinion — I think you should get one for Adsy's group, and I think that's

[22:23] your Christmas present, Liam — a backpack boom box! Now what I'll say is, you choose your run group — everybody chooses the run group they want to be part of. If the run groups I'm part of ever had anybody turn up with one of those boom boxes strapped to their back — it's not for me, I don't need a soundtrack when I'm running. If I'm running in a group, the last thing I want is a soundtrack of somebody else's choosing.

[22:53] And look, I'll be honest, that clip — we might even put it up on the In the Beginning podcast Instagram, so you can see what we're talking about — it did look fun, but that would be a one-off adventure for me. That would be a one-time participation with a group like that, there's no way I'm turning back up to that sort of group week on week. No way, unless I'm single and looking for love — but I'm not, so I won't. It seemed like the sort of place you could try and hit it off with somebody after a run. But the idea of it's a bit —

[23:23] I don't like it when people's music infringes on me at the beach. I don't like it when people are rolling with speakers at the beach in crowded sections. If you're on a quiet beach on your own, fill your boots — but if you're on a crowded beach, I don't want to hear your choice of music, frankly. Yeah, mate, each to their own, but I reckon it could be a gap in the market — I reckon we could see this down at Bondi. It's prime for a Bondi run group with speakers. Screams Bondi.

[23:53] Yep, you know the Tan in Melbourne, these ultra-popular running spots — that's exactly the sort of place where it wouldn't surprise me to start seeing these backpack boom boxes pop up, people running to a soundtrack. Yeah, well, we might look at where we can purchase one of them for you, Liam. What else have I got up to, running-wise? I got up in the trails behind — I think they call it Pacific Palisades, I've probably said that wrong — is that Runyon Canyon? Am I saying that wrong, or is that

[24:23] a different part? Let's just say one of the Los Angeles canyons out the back — I hadn't been up there before, but great running, I ran 15K, give or take 615 metres of vert in that, so yeah, solid. And what surprised me was it was only a 10-15 minute drive and I was in the trails up the top of the mountains — great afternoon, couldn't complain.

[24:55] Gold Coast has this, Adelaide has this as a city as well, Sydney depends on where you live, and Melbourne not so much. But that ability to access trails without having to drive an hour and a half is incredible — and I think as a result you see people getting into trail running when they can get there within 15 minutes. Travel's a great equaliser — I've seen clips of people running those trails and it does look amazing.

[25:25] Do you know if there are any races organised through some of those trails? No idea, I really haven't spent a lot of time here — definitely in Los Angeles. I've spent a bit of time racing across different places in America, and a bit of time training — one year I stayed in Boulder for four or five months doing some training — but no, I haven't spent a lot of time in America. One thing I did come across, which I had no idea about — rattlesnakes. So which is more dangerous — would you rather get bitten by a rattler or a brown?

[25:58] I think, without an education in it, brown snakes are the worst — I think when it comes to snakes, we're top of the pile in Australia, we've nailed it. So I came across a sign and my first thought was, are they really that bad? Because we're jumping over browns every so often here, and it's just

[26:30] — oh, there's a snake, he'll run away. But my first thought when I see signs, or think about snakes, or see one out on the trails, is what would you do? I've had this conversation with doctors a lot — we all know what to do if you get bitten by a snake. Let's say you get bitten by a brown snake or a red-belly out the back of the Gold Coast, you're an hour away from getting back to the trail, out of mobile reception, and ideally you have a snake bandage or a T-shirt or something

[27:01] on you. But all the doctors I've spoken to say the best way to beat the snake venom in that case is to sit down, rest and wait it out. Would you sit down, rest and wait it out if you know no one's coming for you for 24 hours, and you've just been bitten by a big brown? Well, yeah, because you've just told me that's what doctors say —

[27:31] recommend. Would you? I've had half-hour conversations in my head debating what I would do. Because on one hand, you sit down, the venom goes through you, you feel a bit sick, but you can manage it, and 24 hours later you get up and walk out. On the flip side, it's really hard to just sit there knowing you've just been struck by a big brown snake,

[28:02] and just sit there going, oh, she'll be right, mate, no stress. Or do you try to keep your heart rate down and slowly walk out of there? We're not advocating for either here — everyone makes their own choice. But as much as I know the answer is to stay still, I reckon you'd struggle. I reckon I'd struggle, I reckon I'd try to get out of there. Well, put it this way, Courtney — if we weren't running together, I'd prefer —

[28:34] I'd prefer that I was the one who got bitten, because you've got more of a chance to get help quickly. If you got bitten, I've got every chance of having to walk or run back, because I'm cooked — you're in for a long haul if you're the one who gets bitten while we're out running, could be 24 hours. Yeah, no, but anyway — it's probably 24 hours, actually, now that I think about it. Well, if you get lost on the trails — and you know how I go in those Nerang trails, I still don't know my way around, honestly — well, the other answer to the snake stuff is to run like I run: run really heavy, run with a really heavy foot,

[29:05] so they can hear you coming from a long way away. So the week — you had the wedding down in Sydney. Yeah. And then this weekend, in fact the day this episode drops, is my 40th birthday, which you're coming along to for a drink? Are you going to be back in the States — I've just realised I'm going to have to send my rain check on that one, mate. We can't do a rain check for Sunday morning — we can't send a rain check because we're not having it again, we can have another 40th just for me. No, I am — sorry, mate, no, I won't be there.

[29:36] Unfortunately I don't get back in till Sunday morning — well, we might still be going Sunday morning actually — but the point is my wife and I are having joint fortieths on this, the day you might be listening to this podcast. So this weekend might be another tiny write-off for me as well — I'm not exactly flying into Noosa this year from a preparation perspective, but I've made peace with that, I'm OK. And this is the life of an amateur athlete when you have a full-time job and social commitments as well. Sometimes I think — and I had this thought this morning — because I know I

[30:07] might beat myself up over this in days or weeks or years gone by, the idea of wanting to smash Noosa in a couple of weeks' time but having all these other things going on — I'm OK with it. I ran a PB in a half marathon three or four weeks ago, I'm OK with the fact I'm not going to set the world on fire at Noosa in a couple of weeks. But that's OK, because I'm really enjoying where my exercise is at, and I'm going to have a bloody huge party with a bunch of my mates on Saturday for my 40th and my wife's 40th.

[30:37] So I'm OK with that. It's a good way to be, mate, I reckon — because when it comes to racing amateur, or just racing for the sake of it like I do, sport can be very addictive. When you're after a goal and you want to do everything right, it can be very addictive, but in the end, if sport's not your bread and butter, you're not going to lose your job over it. I believe, and I know now, there are a lot more important things in life than

[31:07] that one more training session you can get done. Everyone's going to be different on what their priorities are, but I'm always on the side of, mate, there's a lot more important things — you can always catch back up on another training session another time. That's right, you can't miss a 40th birthday. Well, unless you're at the Red Bull Performance Centre in LA, in which case apparently you can. Now I feel really bad. Now I feel really bad. But — so, on to running techniques and running cues and what works. Off the back of

[31:37] what I was talking about, being here and looking at biomechanics, which is different to this — I've got a story from about ten years ago. At the time I was at the Australian Institute of Sport, I was probably in between the Beijing and London Olympics, right in the programme, full-time triathlon. Australia sent an expert out from, of all places, the USA to help us all with our running technique. Let's just say it was an absolute disaster — I don't think I've

[32:08] run as free since as I did before that day. Now, the reason I say that is — everyone can improve running efficiency, there's no doubt about that, and there are certain cues, we'll go through this, that you can implement, but they're going to be different for everyone. But what's very difficult to do is completely change the way you run in your head. What came about is, I had this guy come out — at the time I was arguably one of

[32:40] the few best in the world in triathlon, just to give you the landscape — it's not like I needed to change things majorly, but you're always looking for those one-percenters. Half a percent, exactly. And you're probably at the point where you're as good as you possibly can be, and it comes down to a bit of luck in a race. True — and I always think, with the one percent, if you improve 1%, does that make you 50% better?

[33:13] No, it's impossible, right, it's crazy, that's not how it works. But this guy comes out from the States, an expert on running technique, comes into my house — I had a projector up on the wall in my lounge room, he puts up some footage of Kenyans running, then puts me up next to it on video, and starts to explain that I'm not swaying enough, I'm not turning my shoulders enough, and I need more arm

[33:46] swing and a whole range of stuff. And what I was thinking at the time — you just believe an expert's an expert, you want to believe you're going to improve. About a week later — we've looked at this, he's like, this is how the Kenyans run, the best in the world, that's how they run, this is how you're running. And I'm a triathlete running off the bike, a very different scenario, and I'm a runner who came from a position of naturally running as a kid — I did swimming and then suddenly I could

[34:19] just run, so the process of running came very naturally to me. About a week later I was in the forest running with Michael Shelley — we used to do this 30K loop out and back in the forest — and he turned and looked at me and said, what's wrong with you today? He could tell something had significantly changed in my running, and it was my shoulders. We're always taught to relax the shoulders, but for some reason the cue this American

[34:50] expert had given me was to roll my shoulders forward, really roll with my arms — that upper body movement would supposedly help my running. Anybody listening to this while they're on their run — stop rolling your shoulders right now, because I know you've started doing it. Just stop it, go back to however you were running before, keep going. So I said to Mike, yeah, this is the new way I'm doing it, this is what I've been told, this is going to improve me. And it was an absolute disaster.

[35:20] I went from running as free and easy, never thinking about running in my life, to — from that week on — all I do is think about what I'm doing when I run. And that's where this whole story was leading — it wasn't that the running itself changed me, because you'd think you should just be able to go back to how you ran. The thing was, I never could. I never actually realised how I was running before — I'd never thought about it,

[35:50] it was all just by feel. And as soon as someone put into my head this is how you should run, suddenly the wheels fell off, and I could never get back. The genie's out of the bottle, and you can never put it back in. Can't put it back, mate. Over the years, I've become very attuned, because of this, to what I call running cues. When I say running cues — you'll hear someone say to you, feel like you're running, pull your belly button forward

[36:20] so you get your hips up. Someone might say, lift your hips. The other day I was running along the beach, I got into a bit of a rhythm and thought, I feel good again, I feel like I'm nearly riding my bike — my heels were kind of coming up, hitting my bum, I had good movement. And the cue I was thinking about at the moment was, I feel like I'm spinning on my bike. And it felt great. So where I'm going with this — and this is a question I want to ask you — is what running cues have you been told that you

[36:50] think work for you? I've got two, and as soon as you started explaining them — because I've never had technical running coaching, I've never really needed it, I've never been at a level that's warranted having professional coaching — as soon as you started talking about it, I've got two. One was given to me by a friend of the show, friend of both of ours — Reedy, from Bondi Rescue, a great runner in his own right, really solid — who gave me the little cheat code of hinging at the

[37:24] hips, that slight lean forward — not bent over, just that slight lean forward when you're running — it's almost like if you start falling forward, you naturally speed up to try to catch yourself. If you implement that a little bit when you're feeling fatigued later in a race, the forward hinge kind of forces your legs to keep up a little bit. That was one. The other one, from Addy, whose run group I run with, is — when I'm running quicker or trying to

[37:57] run faster — are you driving through your big toe? I like that one too — I'd never thought of it before. About 12 months ago, we were doing some efforts, some 1K efforts on the way back — for me we were getting into my fast side, running around 3:45-4K pace, which is quick for me, and I was running well. And as he cruised past me — arrogantly, because it's conversation pace for him —

[38:27] he just said, make sure you're driving through your big toes, are you driving through your big toes? I'd never thought about it before, and instantly I noticed I was driving, probably pushing off the outside two or three toes, the pinky toe and the one next to it. And then all of a sudden it felt like I was straightening up my feet a little bit. So driving through your big toe and hinging at the hip are the two running cues that work for you, right? And it's not going to work for everyone — this is the thing with cues — because when you said hinging at the hips, I was like, oh, are you hinging backwards?

[38:59] where are you going with this? Because hinging is probably not the right word, it's just a little lean. And I think it's specific to individuals — when you give cues, you can give advice or a suggestion, but you've got to work out yourself really quickly whether that cue works for you. Even back in the day, there were triathletes doing a technique where they'd tie a rubber band, like a long elastic band —

[39:29] and this came from a running coach technique, where they'd tie it around their shoulders, I think, and to the back of the heel, which would help with the hamstring drive up and down to get the heel to the butt. It was nearly like falling forward with gravity — what they were effectively doing was pulling their legs off the ground as quickly as possible in a really free, relaxed motion, and just falling forward. So if you think of putting rubber bands on the back of your legs, pulling your feet up as quick as they can, and you run around a track doing that as technique training —

[40:00] there's so many different ways to look at it. I like the one about when you're getting tired — where your knees are going is where you're going to go. Explain that to me. So, when you're getting really tired, knee drive obviously is one thing that decreases. But if you said to someone as a cue, lift your knees higher, the automatic

[40:31] reaction would be to lift your knees vertically higher. But you don't actually want to be going vertical — you want to be going in the direction you're heading. If you think about pulling your knees on a vertical plane towards where you want to go, that's actually helping your momentum go forward first. It's almost like pushing off the ground straight away — when people have done a mountain climber on the ground, that action where you're driving your knees, it's pretty much the same theory as pushing a sled in rehab

[41:03] or recovery — you're at that angle where you're pushing forward in the range of motion where you want to go. I've just thought of another running cue, this one for running hills, and it's the idea of arm swing — again, I've never had what you talked about, where I've never thought about how I'm running because I haven't needed to. When I was doing a hill session one day, running with some undulation in there, Addy was the one who made the comment — up these hills, focus on your arm

[41:35] swing, focus on your arm swing. And it effectively has two effects for me — it's a driver, it does feel like I gain momentum by driving my arms, but it also makes me forget about my legs being tight, because I start thinking about another body part instead of the fatigue in my legs. Well, that works too — take the mind off what's hurting and what you're not thinking about. So, last one, and I'm not going to take credit for this one —

[42:07] when I used to run long runs with hills with Mike Shelley, he was always big on, when you're running uphill, keeping the same cadence you're running on the flat — don't over-stride up, don't put in all that extra pressure with these massive big strides that are going to tire you out up the hill. My challenge running with Mike, who was obviously a quicker runner than me, definitely over more of a marathon distance, was trying to hang on to him — I'd just follow his cadence, and why he

[42:38] ran a marathon so well was he was able to run with that quick cadence, the same cadence and foot strike, and never change it. I don't know what his cadence was running, but for argument's sake, say it was 180 steps a minute, which is about a rule of thumb. The difference is, I'd start at 180 with him and then eventually get tired and have to slow down and go to a longer stride, trying to use more force with each stride.

[43:10] And he was always able to continually do that. So I keep that in the back of my mind too — so much so that sometimes when I'm really stuck on my running, coming back, I'll even use a metronome — put on the old one, like a piano metronome, and just put it on 90, which is 180 steps a minute, and hit one leg at 90-90-90. I was going to ask you — because that idea of cadence, or

[43:40] BPMs, if you're a musical person — it's fascinating, because when I had some calf injuries previously, the physio I saw at the Running Room in Sydney, Paddy Mac, tried to get me to speed up my cadence. He said the way you run, we're going to try to take a bit of pressure off your calves by upping your cadence. I don't know if I've told you about this before, but Rich Roll — for people who love their fitness and running stuff might have heard of him — on his podcast once talked about

[44:11] beats per minute, your cadence when you're running, and there's a cadence, I think it's 184, which is considered the world-record-breaking BPM — that's the cadence a lot of world records on the track have been broken at. And it also works out to be the cadence of the song Rock Lobster by the B-52s. Have I told you this story? No. But you know that song, Rock Lobster? So I listened to that podcast and heard that story,

[44:42] and then I went out to Kirra parkrun and put Rock Lobster on repeat — I think the song goes for about 6 minutes — and basically tried to run to the beat. Did it work? What I learned is I can't run 184 BPM, it was too quick a cadence for me. Having said that, I think I still run about a 19:26 or something, which for me is a good, strong parkrun performance at 5K. But I reckon I was

[45:15] probably at about the 2.5K mark when I lost the beat — I just couldn't maintain the cadence. But I tried it, and it was an interesting exercise. So if anybody else wants to give it a crack, just whack Rock Lobster on and try to run to that cadence of the beat, and see how it feels — it's an interesting exercise. And while Liam's living in the past with songs, I've got my cadence song — my go-to, and I was just scrolling Spotify to find it — is 'Get' by Dallas Woods.

[45:48] Aussie rapper — that's my go-to if I need a beat and I want to run to a tempo, that's my tempo. I'm not exactly sure what the tempo is, but it would be around 180. OK, I'm going to try your tempo running sometime. That's Dallas Woods, 'Get.' It's amazing that Spotify and other music providers, these things now exist — you live in a world where you can specify a tempo for songs to a tempo

[46:20] you want to run to. You talk about fitness having a moment — there are 180-beats-per-minute song lists. Literally, type it in and there you go. So, running cues to wrap that up — these are what we do, but it's about finding what works for you. So my advice, I suppose, is everyone doesn't have the answer — you've got to find the answer yourself. You try a few different things, and you know when it works because you'll feel different. And if it feels awkward, or

[46:52] if it's kind of like, jeez, I'm going backwards here — then don't do it. So that brings me full circle, because we're on this kind of line of questioning about what works, and we've just given a lot of probably advice we shouldn't have — or we've given what we do. So my question is, how much experience do you need to call yourself a run coach now? In the first episode we talked about ourselves giving running advice, Liam, but I'm now

[47:25] thinking about it at a higher level, because with the running boom at the moment, everywhere I look there's an online run coach. Everywhere I look someone's selling me a run session or a run programme on Instagram. What do you, as a 90-minute half marathon runner, consider — how much experience do you need to call yourself a run coach? For me, to take somebody seriously as a run coach, honestly, the thing

[47:59] that would get me to trust somebody as a run coach is a personal testimony from somebody I know and trust as a runner, if that makes sense. That doesn't mean they have to be at your level, but I'd want somebody I know is a good runner to recommend them, because the reality is, if you want to be cynical about it, how can you believe what anybody tells you about their qualifications? We trust experts when they say they're experts,

[48:31] but ultimately it's up to you to decide who you're going to put your trust in. I'll look for personal testimonies of people I know as being good runners, or people I know who have trained — for example, Spot Anderson in Sydney, who has years and years of experience training triathletes and runners in Sydney. Now I didn't know he had all those years of experience when I went to Spot — I went because somebody

[49:05] said, hey, you should go and train with Spot, he's really good, he'll get you ready. I was training for my first ever Noosa, and I was looking for someone to take me from a really low base to a competent base — I enjoyed the sessions and all the rest of it. I don't know if Spot's got any formal training or qualifications whatsoever — he competed at a pretty decent level, I've seen photos of him doing that, so I guess that's good enough. But I guess in the same way I know you competed at the level

[49:35] you did — if you offered me some run advice, or said, I'll coach you, I'll make a programme for you, I would trust in it. That's why I can't ask the question, because I wouldn't trust in me. Oh, no, I'll take back what I just said — no. The reason I say that is, I know what I need to do, I have a pretty good understanding after 20 years of what I need to do, but I

[50:06] wouldn't feel confident getting someone — I've tried, with my brother, to be really honest, and I ended up sending him on to someone I know has the expertise to help him get to a sub-three-hour marathon. When I tried to get him to a sub-three-hour marathon, I didn't know the pace, I didn't know what his recovery should be. I'd send someone to someone with expertise that's proven — not just once, but over and over again — that they can take

[50:36] runners of that standard to the times they want. That's an interesting qualification — I like the way you put that, that they can prove they've taken runners of that standard, that's the key point, isn't it? Because you're right — I don't want someone who might have been responsible for training Jen Gregson or Jess Stenson trying to train me, because it's probably a waste of their time, for

[51:07] starters, and also they specialise at the elite end of the business. I'm not saying there aren't running coaches out there with experience at all these levels, but what I'm saying is, at the moment, with the rise of the online run coach and the run groups, what level of expertise have they got to help a runner at that level? A good example is, if I wanted to run, for argument's sake, a 2:30 marathon, I wouldn't want to go to

[51:38] someone who's got a group training a whole heap of guys to break four hours for the first time. It doesn't make sense. So why does it make sense for someone wanting to break three hours, or go for a 3:30, to go to someone who runs a 2:10 or 2:15 and take their advice? See, that's real, and that is an interesting point. And run clubs — that's where you and I talked a bit about the idea of run clubs off

[52:08] air previously — you get some run clubs where there's a leader who's kind of in charge, but often it's the same loop, the same distance, run at your own pace. So it's not really a coaching session, it's a run session. And then you get run groups where somebody's essentially giving you a session — but there's a question of it. I was talking to a mate who's part of a run group in Adelaide called the Prospect Run Club, and he's taken to it recently.

[52:40] I was really interested, because I was talking to him about the podcast, and I asked, why do you like this? Why do you keep going back to this run group? What is it that's kept you going back? He said, well, I like the distance we run, I like the speed we run at. His mate who runs it gets up at the start and says, righto guys — essentially there's two speeds. For those going to run quickly, which for them is probably under 4:30 pace, this is the person who's going to be on

[53:10] the front of that train, as it were — you're starting off with them in two minutes. And for everybody else running, say, 5 minutes and slower, this is the person at the front of that train, you guys will go off in there. So it's kind of not a coaching session, but you're splitting off into groups. I think ultimately, if you're looking for a target and want to achieve it, go and find a coach — a paid session, someone who's charging you per session — because that tells me they're confident in their ability.

[53:42] I like where you went with that, and I'm going to take it one step further, because I think I just worked out the difference between a run coach and a run leader — someone in a run group who just says go and do this. A run coach should understand you as an individual, understand what your goals are, and have a structured programme to individually suit you to achieve the goal you want. Now, how you run within

[54:13] that structure, and the paces and everything else to achieve that goal, isn't going to be the same as the guy running next to you — there's going to be some individualisation, and that takes time, expertise, and an understanding of how to periodise training. Periodise training — I'm starting to use some good industry words. No, this is good — so periodising training is simply, say it's a year-long build, could be a multi-year build, could be just a 12-week build.

[54:45] It's understanding how to load the training — the volume and intensity — over that period, up to your goal race, in the appropriate way, to allow recovery, and from that recovery, allow you to improve. Going out every week and just running a session, you're not going to get the maximal bang for your buck. No — and that's the difference between having a run coach and

[55:15] just joining a run club as a leader. Yeah, that's the key difference — improvement. Run club leaders aren't necessarily going to help you improve, you'll run, you'll stay healthy, you'll do exercise and you'll enjoy it, but there's no targeted improvement for you as an individual athlete. This is great, we've resolved that. When you mentioned periodising, someone suggested to me — and I love it when people come up to me, whether via socials or in person, I've had several people come up in person about the podcast —

[55:47] someone said to me, can you get Courtney to — he's a really good runner, by the way — can you get Courtney to explain the benefits of certain running sessions? So I'll brief you on it so you can prepare — but he said, and it might seem simple, why is fartlek good? He can probably run a 2:45 marathon, he's a really strong — what do they call it in surf lifesaving, when you get out on

[56:17] the big boats? Oh, like a rower? Yeah, well, he's a rower — essentially a really good boatie. He's competed at national level for boaties, he's just a very good aerobic athlete. But he said, I'm a good athlete, but I don't understand why fartlek is good, I don't understand why interval sessions are good. He said it would be really interesting to hear Courtney explain why these sessions are good and what they do specifically for runners — what the purpose is and what the outcome should be. Yeah,

[56:49] when you do these sets — all right, we'll write that, so you've got some homework, get through it. One last question, just to cover the whole topic around this — if I go and see a doctor, I want that doctor to have gone to doctor school, university, right? Always check that your doctor's been to doctor school, and if they don't have something on the wall that says I graduated from doctor

[57:21] school, you turn around and walk out that door. You probably shouldn't trust them to operate on you. Now, doctor to running coach might be a bit of an extreme comparison, but the premise holds — as a run coach, just because I ran a 2:45 marathon, does that qualify me to be a run coach? No. Should a run coach actually have a qualification? Should a run coach have had to go and do some type of coaching course?

[57:56] Interesting — I don't know the answer. To coach in the Premier League, or in the English football leagues, you need a coaching badge, you need to have done the courses. Now, you might be the best coach in the world, but if you haven't completed your FIFA coaching badges, my understanding is you're not allowed to coach — you're not qualified to coach in that league, which brings up an interesting point, because I imagine if you're a

[58:27] coach involved with the AIS, you need to bring qualifications to the table from athletic school, if you will. Yeah, triathlon school, athletic school, whatever the school is. There are levels of coaching certificates out there — you do your Level 1, then you learn about periodisation and all these things that help runners run. Now someone who suddenly

[58:58] becomes an online coach because they've got a great following or a run group, and they don't have that coaching background — I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just posing the question — does it hold merit if you've gone and done some type of education in coaching? I'm looking it up as we talk — Athletics Australia offers a Recreational Running Coach accreditation, designed specifically for coaches working

[59:31] with adult recreational runners aged 18 and up, offering a nationally recognised qualification. That's fascinating. OK, so — a better question may be — because I'm pretty sure I know the answer, that the majority of coaches out there won't have that qualification unless they're involved in little athletics, where they'd need a blue card as well, I'm sure. I'm sure that's a necessity, but would you be

[01:00:01] willing to pay more for a coach if they had a qualification? Yeah, I think — look, if you offered me a qualified piece of paper from someone who went to coaching school, versus somebody who comes recommended by someone I know who runs a bit quicker than me and got them to a goal time —

[01:00:31] I'm going with the personal recommendation, because for my running journey, most of what I've learned, most of what I enjoy, most of what I've found works for me has come through personal recommendations, not through looking online for programmes or experts. It's come from the people I run with on a weekly basis who are better than me and have recommended things — whether it's shoes or running groups or whatever. It's like watching YouTube to do your own car service.

[01:01:02] I've tried that — yeah, I've tried. Have I told you the story about when I disconnected the accelerator on my car trying to change a fuse for the light? Yeah. Look, YouTube's great for some things, not for all things, Courtney. Hey, to anybody listening who has a run coach or is part of a run club with a leader — next time you're out there, listen a little more closely, and if you've got a run coach, ask them if they have any accreditation. I want to know if you've gone to

[01:01:33] running school, mate — your running school graduation certificate. We're probably almost out of time — one more thing quickly before we go. I know you love talking about equipment — do you want to talk about your treadmill? I do love equipment, especially when a company actually tries to really change something rather than just copying. Wahoo — really well known for bike, they call them wind trainers, that

[01:02:04] old school term — what would someone call them, an electric wind trainer, a stationary bike, an electric exercise bike, where you put your own bike on the piece of equipment. People who've used Zwift would know — I've got Wahoo sensors on my shoes, we're talking like Zwift for your bikes and all of that. So Wahoo have come out with a new treadmill — what really interests me here is what they call responsive running

[01:02:36] on the treadmill. It's called Run Free, and what it does is take into account your running stride, how hard you're hitting, and your run cadence, and it makes the treadmill feel like you're running on the road — you're not setting the speed, how hard you run is up to you, and the treadmill adapts to that. I'm trying to figure it out — I'm figuring it out in my brain, which is why my brow is furrowed right now. So hold on — you set the speed?

[01:03:07] No, you do not set the speed — there's a mode called... let me get it exactly — oh, so it can do all the things a normal treadmill does, but then there's a mode called responsive running, and essentially you run and the treadmill adapts. Yes — instead of you adapting to the treadmill, the treadmill adapts to you. If you want to run easy, it will automatically run at the pace you're running. If you speed up, it will allow you to speed up with a ground feel, as if you're running on

[01:03:39] the road. Does it still do what a Kicker does — can you still hook it up and run a course, and it'll feel like you're going up and down hills, changing the gradient? Yes. But it's this particular Run Free mode I'm interested in, where you can get on the treadmill and, instead of thinking about being on a treadmill, you just run. I like it — I don't know how well it works, but I like it. I'd love to try it, because it's hard, because in my mind, when I get on a treadmill, if I want to just go for a run and run free, I'll go outside and I'll

[01:04:12] run free. If I was ever going to get on a treadmill, it would be because I want to do a specific set — intervals, or something where the speed is dictated for me — and I can take the responsibility of holding the pace out of my own hands, because the treadmill's going at the pace, so I have to stay with it. So I'm not sure I'd use Run Free mode, but I'd be fascinated to see how it feels. I love the technology — a treadmill now allowing you to run courses, it can automate it,

[01:04:44] go up and down — you can practise, and I'm assuming the technology will be there to plug in the Gold Coast Marathon and feel like you're running the Gold Coast Marathon, feel like you're running the Sydney Marathon. It's like golf simulator technology — those golf simulators let you play courses anywhere in the world from your backyard, your garage, wherever you've got the simulator set up. You could be going and running the UTMB course from your house. For me, I don't think

[01:05:14] I'll ever get to run the UTMB in the actual mountains — but I do like technology, and this one's definitely — what's it called, the Wahoo? It's called the Wahoo Kickr Run treadmill. They've got to come up with a better name than that, surely. It's called the Kickr Run — OK, Kickr Run — check it out. Hey, before we wrap things up, shout out to everybody who's already on board with the In the Beginning podcast — we're going to keep throwing up polls every week because we love the interaction. If you're on Spotify or Apple, you know we're early days —

[01:05:46] this is only the 5th episode, episode 5, early days — and we thank everyone listening, because we hit the charts in the first week, Liam, which is absolutely crazy — short charts, that is. If you're enjoying it, go and give us a rating on both Apple and Spotify, that will help get the word out, get more people listening. We're just super appreciative that you listen to us blabber on. That's it — we're going to keep chasing the charts, share with your friends, leave a comment, leave a rating, and we'll keep on this wonderful journey celebrating

[01:06:16] fitness and running. Courts, I'll let you go, and we'll be back next week. See you then.