EP 3 - WHY YOU NEVER REGRET A RUN

[00:00] Welcome to the In the Beginning podcast. We're rolling with the name — well, it's official now, we're going with it. First idea, best idea. Liam Flanagan here, Courtney Atkinson. We're back, we're here, this is it. We're sticking with this and we're rolling with In the Beginning. Yeah, mate, there was no better option. And you know what, we can always talk about “in the beginning” because with the plans of trying different things and bringing in people to talk about their new things, in the beginning's gonna be right throughout this. If you're just joining us, this is a podcast where we wanna celebrate the moment that running and fitness in general seems to be having, not only in Australia but around

[00:38] the world. Courtney, you bring actual qualifications to this world of fitness and running — how many Olympics? Two Olympics, and put it this way, I've never really had a proper job in the last five years, I reckon. You're basically a full time athlete. You're still an endurance athlete these days, still chasing awesome things to do everywhere. I am an amateur athlete — I'm like a lot of people probably listening to this podcast who have a full time job and fit their exercise in around it.

[01:13] But your day job's not your normal day job either, fortunately. I want to talk about this with you at some stage, the idea of running and exercising and training at “pro hours,” as people call it, because I'm a radio host, an AFL commentator, a broadcaster, and I've been doing that for over a decade now with Triple M. So this is the thing — I am very, very lucky with the job I have, that after I take care of the kids in the morning, taking them to school and kindy and whatever, I can then go do some training.

[01:47] Which is what people refer to as pro hours — not having to get up at sparrows and get your exercise done at five AM, but being able to go and do it at nine AM. But in itself it's so interesting, right? Because I spent twenty years thinking pro hours meant having all day to train. The one thing I love now is the fact I get everything done first thing in the morning. So I think once you retire — or not retire, but start to have more time in your life to choose what you're doing —

[02:17] I thought I'd be dreaming of doing all my exercise in the afternoons, and it's gone the complete opposite way. I love now getting up at five AM and getting whatever I need to get done first, because in the end, whatever you get out first in the morning — whether it's the run, another sport, or something you've gotta get done for work — I find getting it done first is the only way to go about it. I sometimes now, if I wake up and I know I've missed a training session or I haven't gone and joined in with the run groups, who start at five

[02:47] thirty or whatever, I get the biggest guilt. I get a real kind of angry, I get down on myself for not having gotten up early enough in the morning to do it. Well, there's that too — but that's a good segue to what have you got up to since we saw you last Wednesday? And for anybody listening, whether you're an established runner or just embarking on your running journey, let us know what you think, because this is what we're here to do. We want to tap into this moment that runners are having, whatever level people are just entering it at, and all the rest of it.

[03:21] And we're hoping you're finding what we're doing informative and entertaining. Run updates for me — since we last caught up, I've got Noosa Triathlon a month away now, so trying to get on that bike a bit more. I actually did a couple of K's off the bike this morning. I went out and did a forty K hit-out, up and out and back, and jumped off — it's the first, they call it a brick session, don't they? I just went straight out from my place to Currumbin Valley, twenty K's out, twenty K's back, trying to stay in the aero position on the tri bike.

[04:00] What's weird is that if I just go out with no tri bars on, just jump on the bike, I find I'm pedaling and it doesn't feel like I'm working any harder, but the legs aren't sore. But on this morning's ride, getting into that aero position, it hurts more. I glance at my watch and I'm like, am I riding faster being in this position? And clearly I am — there's aerodynamics

[04:32] at play, obviously. But different muscles are being used — I don't know whether I'm doing it wrong, but this is probably where a bike fit comes in really handy. So maybe this is something we've got to look at, even with Noosa now four weeks away — it might be worth looking at in those two weeks. When you suddenly change your whole position, you're using different muscles on the bike. You're probably going a lot more quad dominant, so that might be where you're finding that. You're really reducing that angle through your hip flexors.

[05:02] So they're getting tighter, which then makes it harder to run off the bike. Which in the end, with the triathlon — we talked about the jigsaw puzzle — you want to be able to get off that bike really loose and ready to run. That's where time trial bike fits really come in handy, especially if you're riding that same bike. Just whacking on a pair of aero bars doesn't necessarily make it a hundred percent aero straight away. It's like another fitness/running/triathlon analogy I've stolen from somebody much more qualified than me and used as my own — Scott Anderson, runner-up in a Noosa Tri

[05:40] back in the day, a bit of an icon of the Sydney fitness scene, said: mate, you can get a five thousand dollar bike, but if I put a pair of fifty dollar tri bars on mine, I'll kick your ass. Still — the aero matters, right? And if you look at the way the aero bikes are now, and the positions that both Tour de France riders and triathletes are getting into, those positions are way more aggressive than what we were riding maybe ten years ago.

[06:13] Aggressive meaning the way they're getting their back flat, the way the handlebars are — how they're actually holding onto the aero bars, at the angles, and that's all worked out through bike fit to find that perfect position. These days you'll see bike riders actually going to F1 aerodynamics labs to work this out. All the bike brands have their own aerodynamics labs that they can go to, especially the sponsored athletes can go into and get help. So I'd nearly go as far as to say, when we're talking about time trialling —

[06:46] you often say it's the legs and the training and all of that, but in the case of the time trial, I'm not gonna put a percentage on it, but a decent percentage comes from the aerodynamics. So if you're an average punter like me who gets his or her ass in gear eight weeks out from Noosa every year, is a bike fit worthwhile? I don't think you've got to go to the extent of — I mean, I haven't had a bike fit in a while, but you don't have to go and book out

[07:17] one of the F1 racing teams' aerodynamic tunnels — wind tunnels. But most local bike stores, like out here at Just Ride at Nerang, for example, they've got a bike fit setup you can go in for, and I'm assuming maybe a hundred bucks, a few hundred bucks — don't quote me on that, don't make me pay the difference on that one — but no, I do think it's worthwhile, and it's not only worthwhile from an aerodynamic perspective, it's also about just getting the most use out of your position.

[07:47] So you're using the strongest muscles as well. So I went on the ride, then jumped off and did a couple of K's just off the bike, just to see how it felt — felt pretty good. I also went for a longer run on Saturday with Adzy's crew out of Main Beach. And the cardinal sin for run groups — run groups are all having a moment everywhere right now, so people will sympathize with this — if you're late to your run group, I figure run groups have one of two attitudes towards time. Either we start at this time,

[08:22] and if you're not here, you're not running with us today, or there's a bit of leeway, a bit of flexibility to it. I got stuck in a bit of early morning traffic through some roadworks and I was six minutes late for the start time. That's overtime — six minutes was too much. I knew I was gonna be playing catch-up. They either run north seventy-five percent of the time and south twenty-five percent of the time — I reckon. I went with the odds, I ran north, they'd run south.

[08:55] So I ended up doing fifteen K's on my own, but legs felt good. Remember what we talked about the other week, about actually giving my body a chance to recover from that half marathon? This week my body feels amazing. Can I let you in on the other thing I've been doing? Yeah. I think it's having an impact — I've introduced into my morning routine, I've introduced Metamucil. Mate, it's made a difference.

[09:25] I feel amazing. Yeah, you've hit forty. Metamucil? No — I just threw it in the other day, I was looking in the cupboard, I was throwing a bit of creatine into some water, and there was the Metamucil, so I chucked it in, mate — light as a feather. It's one of the biggest stresses about going running early in the morning with a group, isn't it — can I get to the toilet first, or am I gonna have to go while I'm out there? Is there a toilet? So no, that's the beauty of running in the bush.

[09:57] There is always, always the option. Do you run with toilet paper if you go in the bush? I generally take a couple of wet wipes with me. Just — ideally you never want to be in that position, but yeah, why not? Better to be safe than sorry, you don't have that stress. Running along the Esplanade's not too bad either, because there are plenty of toilets. You're along the Gold Coast Esplanade, you're gonna get yourself out of trouble.

[10:29] As soon as you head up into the Gold Coast Spit though — yeah, again, you're on your own. But just going back to the idea around coming late to training — because this is a pet peeve of mine — I think I'm gonna throw this out there, it's got all to do with the numbers in the group. If there's only, say, four people turning up to your group, and you've got the ability to message each other, I'm fine to wait a few minutes —

[11:00] hey, I'm running a few minutes late, quick message, no stress, we'll wait a bit. But as soon as the numbers are over four, that's an inconvenience, and tough luck — we're gonna leave right on time. There was more than four people in this group, so they were well within their rights to leave. Run updates for you — what's been going on, how's the calf, are you back training, back running? Yeah, the calf's good because it's been rested — it was the ribs we were talking about. Hopefully three's enough.

[11:31] Okay, so the ribs — how are they travelling? Still sore, but the last couple of days I've had a run. I taped up the ribs — that helps with the fascia not bouncing around, so it's probably more the intercostals — again, another thing I don't really know. Isn't the Intercostal a hotel up on the surf coast somewhere? I don't know, you might know more about the different streets and suburbs than I do. But yeah, I taped up the ribs just to help hold them, so there's not as much bouncing around, and a bit of painkillers, a bit of Panadol —

[12:08] nothing too much. And that's got me out running the last two mornings. The first run back was forty minutes, just ran around here at Currumbin, kind of where we are at the moment on the beach, and then I threw in ten minutes of soft sand running off the back of that. I did it barefoot — why not, it was a good morning. I ran forty minutes along the bitumen and concrete, then the soft sand, and then jumped straight back into what we do on our Tuesday fartlek at the Spit — the small group of the crew I meet generally on a Tuesday.

[12:42] Yeah, and we ran — what do we do, twenty minutes of one minute on, one minute float? And that was painful. I hadn't run for ten days and my quads were sore today, so I didn't run today, I just jumped back on the stationary bike to be safe, cruised around, and I'll get back to running tomorrow. Sorry, I'm gonna be the translator here, because there'll be people who, like me, always look at the word — I see it on people's Stravas often — “float.”

[13:13] What does float mean? Does it just mean jogging, or does it mean something else? I'd say float is more than a jog. If you think about fartlek running, we're not doing intervals of on-off — it's literally on, and then keep the pace up, keep a reasonable pace. And depending on the fitness and the goal of the session, that speed of the float can vary within the fartlek.

[13:45] If we want it more continuous, it could be quite a quick float — maybe only dropping ten to twenty seconds slower per K. So it's not a recovery jog, it's not like you're trying to recover from your interval — it's still maintaining, not a tempo pace exactly, but I think that's probably the difference between saying I'm going out and doing fartlek versus going out and doing repetitions. Because with repetitions, you're going to do something fast and then either a really slow jog or complete rest.

[14:20] If you're doing fartlek, you're teaching the body to keep moving. No, I ask again because, as we talked about previously, sometimes if I'm looking for a run session — I don't have a run coach — I'll literally Google what I want the outcome to be of my training and see what comes up, and I'll often see terminology like “float” and think, I don't know what that means. So no one's ever explained float to me — now I kind of get it. So, how's the body feeling — where would you put yourself, percentage-wise, physically right now?

[14:52] Definitely not back yet, but look, I'm there, I'm back running — that's the key. I'm back running each morning. I've probably ridden a bike more often — when I say a bike, not out mountain biking, I've actually been on the stationary bike at home. Yeah, one of the most boring things to do — well, it is, but if you break it into a session, I often find, just like running on a treadmill, if you actually give yourself something to do and a target, it can be

[15:22] no different to running out on the road. So for example, this morning I was on the — I call it an ergo, because I don't ride any of these new-school tech Zwift setups and all that, I've literally got an old road bike mounted onto a big fan. The harder you ride it, the harder the fan resistance goes. So it's more for strength — I like it for strength training. The harder you push it, the harder the fan goes, and if you want to spin around easy, it's still got quite good road feel.

[15:53] So it isn't magnetic resistance. This morning I put a heart rate monitor on — I have a general idea of the levels I want to be at, and I did a bit of strength endurance work — three minutes on, one minute spin. I think I did forty minutes of that. There's another thing I want to talk about, because there'll be people listening to this — I reckon more people listening are in my world of exercise than yours, because you're an elite bloke who's been doing it as a job for however many years.

[16:25] But you talk about zones and heart rates and all the rest of it — I don't train with a heart rate monitor, a strap across my chest, but my Garmin, my watch, has it built in, and you hear all this stuff about zones. I look down and go, well, my watch says I'm in this zone. And then you read there's so much information out there — you need to actually train properly to know where your zones are, and blah blah blah. And one day we'll — well, I mean, it's terminology, right?

[16:56] And I get lost in this myself. Because I like to keep things really simple — I don't think training life needs to be that overcomplicated. Some people love it, even if they're right at the beginning of all this — some people love the nitty gritty, the terminology, everything. Here's a great way to look at it, and this is where opinions differ. What I want from my watch is literally the ability for it to do heart rate.

[17:32] And if I ever use heart rate, I'll use a strap with it, because I've never had great success with the optical wrist-based heart rate. I want to know exactly that it's working, right — but it's rare that I'm wearing that, maybe for a key session. So heart rate's part of it, but all I want to know is what speed I'm doing, how far I've gone, and generally I want to be able to lap it so I can see a lap distance. All the other stuff in a heart rate monitor or a watch, I don't really care about,

[18:03] which is great, and you'll probably have to upgrade to the next watch next year 'cause there'll be something new. But you know what I mean — there's so much technology in watches and everything else going on these days. I kind of just go back to, what do you really need out of it and what's going to have the biggest benefit? I'm really simple with my watch — I keep those few things on it. And then the thing I've added lately is I want to be able to have music on it where I don't have to carry a phone — that's a big one. I agree with you, my watch has got that too.

[18:34] The other thing my watch does, which I find funny because I see it on other people's Stravas, is I use it when I'm playing golf — I'm a hack golfer, but you plug it in and it'll pick up the golf course, you can keep score on your watch, and it'll give you rough distances into the pins and all the rest of it. What I love is — I don't think people want their golf rounds uploaded onto their Strava, but because your phone and watch are automatically synced up, and it's a Garmin activity, it'll just go boom, and suddenly everyone sees you've been out playing golf for the last four and a half hours.

[19:07] I thought you were just gonna say the only reason you play golf is to tick it off as a Strava activity. We're diverging a bit here, but I've got an issue — should you spam people with Strava uploads if it's just an easy afternoon recovery jog? Define spam — is it publicly uploading to Strava everything you do,

[19:40] or should Strava be just for those times when you've knocked out a decent run, a decent session? We're getting to the heart of the problem here — I think Strava is awesome, but I think Strava presents all the same problems that we talk about social media having more broadly. I think Strava presents the same problems for the running community.

[20:10] At least I suppose the benefit is you've got to do something to have that. Yes, you do. So do you have to do an activity to upload? They've kind of changed it a bit, but generally you're gonna do it whether it's easy or not. Should you put it up — that's the question, what's your take on it? For me it's a yes, because I don't use it as a way to show people what I'm doing.

[20:41] For me, I'm actually using it as a record-keeping exercise for myself — I'm using it to keep track: okay, this week, for example, I'm building into Noosa, so I'm wanting to up my bike K's this week, and I can see the graph of how my bike K's are tracking. Same with running, all that sort of stuff — keeping a general trend, and Strava tells you you're trending X, Y and Z, all the rest of it.

[21:13] If I was worried about people judging my Strava activities, I wouldn't have uploaded that fifteen minute swim in Tallebudgera Creek where I travelled three hundred meters all up because I was swimming into the current for ten minutes. I'm not that fussed about it — I don't have the same level of followers as you on Strava. But the issue isn't — yes, you want to see all your stuff, I agree, I want to see all my stuff. But you don't have to be public to do that, you can keep it all private.

[21:45] You can keep sessions private if you want. And this is — I didn't know that. You didn't know that? This is where I suppose I was leading with the question, maybe it didn't hit right — for others, when you're scrolling through Strava, do you want to see everything of everyone, or do you want to see — that's a good point, because now that I think about it, I do want to see people's highlights.

[22:16] I want to see hard sessions, I want to see PBs, I want to see races. Now that I think about it, yeah — I'm thinking about the people I follow on Strava, and I know when they go out and it's their usual Wednesday morning run, there's no kudos coming from me, they're not getting a thumbs up from me. But for example, a mate of mine who just did the Berlin Marathon — I wanna see that, I wanna see your splits, I wanna look at the data on that effort, because it was an amazing run that he did.

[22:49] Hundred percent — I don't want to see that. Well, each to their own, right? My take is — I'll give you what I do — I don't have a hard take on it, I won't show everything I do. Don't you? No. I'll put up like if something's a session or something that might be of interest, I love showing locations — if I go out on a decent trail run or whatever, and I've been experimenting a bit with how Strava reacts with video.

[23:22] So you can put videos up now on it — do a little bit of POV of you running on the trails or along the coast, just to see whether that makes a difference or not. But generally if I'm doing certain things — and maybe I should, I don't know — I haven't shown anything I've done on a stationary bike, put it that way, in the last week. Oh, no — if someone uploads stuff on a stationary bike or a treadmill, nah, get stuffed, I don't need to see that. Actually, that I agree with — I'm making my mind up about this as we discuss it.

[23:56] Zwift activities can get stuffed — I don't need to see your Zwift activities on Strava. In fact, ban it, I want it out. Strava, get rid of Zwift activities, don't let them be uploaded. Well, exactly, that's the hypothetical — each to their own, right? No, no, you're making the decision. Well, let us know, we can rediscuss it and take a few opinions on board. But back to the week — I'll just round out my week, like I said, bit of stationary bike,

[24:29] I've got back running, which is brilliant. I don't have much to do at the moment to be honest, everything's pretty quiet, but it feels like the calm before the storm, because in a few weeks time, literally I'm back on the road and we'll have plenty of stories. My calendar — I've been playing a bit of Tetris with the calendar, trying to work out how to get everything done before Christmas. Exciting stuff on the horizon. I've got a couple of things I want to share with you real quick — firstly, my mate I mentioned who ran the Berlin Marathon.

[25:01] I wanted to share this because he's a great fella, a really good runner — his name's Tim Dettman. Used to be involved with those Kaiser gyms, physio by trade, but now he's sort of on a work sabbatical. He loves his fitness, loves activities, and he's just gone off and run Berlin — ran a great time, two hours forty-three. So he's a good runner.

[25:31] But the time's a bit irrelevant — I just want to share his Instagram post. He put up a photo of himself with the medal and said: “I loved running for two hours, 43 minutes and 21 seconds on Sunday in Berlin. I loved/hated it, but in the end I still love it. I love it even more when I get to share it with mates.” He mentioned some of the mates who got him involved, and said he'd share more about how he ran ten minutes quicker than Reedy, a mutual friend of ours, predicted. But then, and this is what I love most, he said: in the meantime, if you don't run, get off your ass and give it a go.

[26:05] You never regret a run. And I was just like, that's it, right? That's exactly it — you never regret any sort of run you go on, unless you really badly injure yourself. Like I ran two K's off the bike this morning and I was stoked — I just wanted to see how the legs were feeling off the bike, and I'm so happy I did it. I just wanted to share that with Timmy, because I thought he summed up the attitude of what we're about here. And I reckon that's echoed by most people who go out and run a marathon, whether they're running five hours or whether they're cracking

[26:40] sub three. So, so congratulations, well done. The other thing I did want to talk about — I think it's worth talking about Berlin. A lot of people go to Berlin because of how flat and fast that race is, lots of PBs. Cause Goldie's flat, Adelaide's flat too. So this raises the question, I suppose, of where's the ideal spot to go and run a marathon if you're trying to run the fastest marathon you can.

[27:13] If your goal is to run your best time or a PB — spoken by a bloke who's never run a straight-up marathon in his life, yes, I'm talking completely out of my ass here — but Berlin is that record-setting course, the one people like to go and hit their PBs on. The elites chase it for two reasons: one, it's obviously very flat; the second reason is there's a lot of people who go there to run fast around certain markers, certain times they're looking for,

[27:47] so it's a lot easier to run in bigger packs. You mentioned Gold Coast Marathon — here in Australia, obviously the Gold Coast Marathon is super flat, super fast. I could get called out on this, but I'm gonna say it's the flattest. Melbourne's flat too, but from my understanding, lots of corners — you're running through Melbourne streets. Here on the Gold Coast, you're up and down the coast.

[28:18] There's limited turns, limited hills. We should go and do some research on that before we make comment, but going back to why they're quick — it's about having the right amount of people around you to pull you along to that time. That's why Berlin and a few other key marathons around the world are so popular. If, for example, you wanted to come to the Gold Coast and your target — we're talking probably more on the quicker end here now — say you want to run 2:30, what

[28:48] you might find on the Gold Coast is the fast runners go out and lead the race and there'll be a pack, and then you'll find you've just got a trickle of runners nearly on their own, and then a big group around 2:40, 2:45, three hours. So it's a lot — I'd say it's more difficult to run the times you want to run. Talking about marathons while we're here, because there's probably people listening who, at this time of year, might have either cracked their first one earlier this year, maybe in Sydney or the Gold Coast, or might be targeting Melbourne.

[29:18] There's this huge push right now by the Sydney Marathon to become a “major,” to earn classification as a major marathon, and I don't know, I've never seen as much emphasis put on the Sydney Marathon, because there are certain number qualifications they have to hit as far as participation to qualify — to get a certain number of finishes, to get it to a certain level, their goal is to have a major-level event.

[29:48] The real winner here, forget naming specific marathons, whether it's Sydney or Gold Coast, is running. Because I saw today the Melbourne Marathon Festival just sold out — forty thousand people. And that's coming up in November. So you've got Gold Coast selling out in record time, you've got Sydney reaching their targets,

[30:19] and now Melbourne selling out too. So these key marathons — this is why we're here talking about it — it's just booming. What I would love — going back to my history in triathlon, and I mentioned Noosa — they have stats around the event: who's the first-timer coming to that event, who's never raced a triathlon before, who's a repeat customer, who's raced triathlons before but it's their first time at Noosa. They have all that data. I would love to know the stats on marathons at the moment in Australia.

[30:51] How many of, let's just say, thirty or forty thousand people turning up to a major are running their first-ever marathon? How many are coming back to the same marathon — like on the Gold Coast, just because it's local, people will come back time and time again trying to better their PB on a quick course. Would that be the same if the course isn't as fast and is more challenging? Do you go to that course just to tick it off once because it's a major?

[31:21] But you're probably not going to go back there because you're not going to run as quick there. So these are some questions, I suppose, and someone out there will know the answers. Right now, if you had three — Melbourne, Gold Coast, or Sydney — which marathon are you gonna run, and why? Because there's a number of reasons. I've run Goldie a couple of times, I've run the Sydney half,

[31:52] I've never run the Sydney full course. I'd run Melbourne. I'd run Melbourne out of curiosity — because it finishes in the MCG, right? Here comes your footy head. But there would be — I guarantee you — thousands of people, if you just said that 40,000 people have signed up to that festival, I can guarantee you, with no research done whatsoever, that thousands of people,

[32:26] potentially first-timers, potentially people who've done it before, have signed up for the primary reason of getting to run into the MCG, onto the MCG. Are we sure it finishes in the MCG? If it does — I don't know, are you fairly certain? Talk amongst yourselves while I check. The Melbourne Marathon — I had this predicament when I was considering doing a marathon last year: would I go to Sydney, trying to build this new major, or run at home on the Gold Coast, which I know is fast?

[33:04] I can get out of my own bed, park at Australia Fair, and run across the road, nice and easy. In the end I didn't run either — that was more to do with timing. My challenge around marathons is timing in the year — we talked about it, life, you've got two kids, different roles in different organisations, different businesses.

[33:34] And the end of the financial year for me — those two months leading into the end of June — I'm always travelling. I get all this training under my belt, everything's going well, and I pretty much know for certain I'm going to get pulled away on the road, whether it's out filming with businesses, or out travelling to actually do the filming myself, whatever it is — that is peak time of year for me, and I just don't get to run. And if I'm gonna put myself in a marathon, I'll say it right now —

[34:06] if I'm gonna put myself in a marathon, I'm there to go for a time and race. I'm not talking about just running it — I'm not just gonna get out there and run a marathon, there's nothing that excites me about that. Atkinson doesn't need to tick the box of finishing a marathon. You do not need to tick a box of finishing a marathon, you want to race. I think I'm gonna be gravely disappointed, 'cause I reckon I'm setting the goal way up here, and the reality is the training's not there anymore.

[34:37] But if I'm going to do it — let's say next year, if we pick a marathon next year and go out and get after it and talk about it — I'm going for a time. I think a lot of people listening to this are very much “tick the box” athletes. I reckon the amateur, the average person, is proud just to finish and tick that box. And that's great — I reckon that's why running, why fitness, is having its moment.

[35:07] People who did HYROX this year for the first time didn't enter it going, “I want a podium in my age category” — they just wanted to challenge themselves, see if they could complete it, see if they could finish it. And that's why you see these incredible numbers. I've just done the Googling — the Melbourne Marathon circles Albert Park Lake, past Flinders Street Station, past St Kilda Beach foreshore, and crosses the finish line at the MCG. In the MCG, or at the MCG?

[35:37] 'Cause that's a big difference, right? No — you are inside the MCG, I'm looking at the map here, and you finish. So it's like the Olympics, right, where they finish you in the stadium right before the closing ceremony — well, for most Olympics they do that. And to that question, I would pick Melbourne for that reason now, because I've lived in Sydney for ten years, I've run around the Opera House, I've run over the bridge, and it's amazing, right,

[36:07] and I wouldn't blame anybody who said, I want to run the Sydney Marathon because you finish at the Sydney Opera House — an iconic spot, amazing spot. But I've run around there countless times. Gold Coast Marathon — unbelievable, flat course, quick course, you can run a good time, I've done it. But to finish a marathon in the MCG, which, as a footy fan, as a broadcaster who's called games there — to finish a running race on the grass of the MCG, or on whatever they lay over the top, would be

[36:39] an amazing feeling. A genuinely incredible feeling, to finish and look around at what I think is the greatest sporting stadium in Australia. It'd be amazing. Let's pivot, because that's a good combo — I'm gonna leave you with the Melbourne Marathon, sign up — well, it's sold out. Actually, no, it's sold out. But to pivot off talking about the MCG — Lions. Queensland — I won't say Queenslanders, but you're de facto now.

[37:10] De facto. How good was the Lions' AFL grand final — what is it, a week old now, almost, when we're talking here — that was an absolute domination. I said twelve months ago when they lost their grand final to Collingwood, I said they'll be back, because that list is — similarly to what we've got this weekend in the NRL grand final, I think you've got the two best teams, Melbourne taking on Penrith.

[37:40] Last weekend in the AFL grand final, you had the two best teams — Sydney and Brisbane. Objectively, if you're neutral, you'd consider they were the two best teams. Sydney were the most dominant team all year. Brisbane have the best list — the most talented list in the AFL — and on Saturday last week at the MCG, they showed why. On their day, they're capable of beating anybody, their best football is better than anyone's. And to pull back the curtain a little, I reckon I did somewhere in the vicinity of six to ten

[38:11] interviews ahead of that game with radio stations around Queensland and New South Wales, regional stations and some podcasts — probably did six to ten interviews previewing the game. And I can tell you, Courtney, in my world there is no greater feeling than when you make a prediction and it comes true. So it was with the biggest smile, a beer in hand, sitting on my couch last Saturday watching that game. And when the Lions were home early, having said to everybody I'd spoken to, “Lions can and will win this game” —

[38:44] that was my tip. But when Will Ashcroft was given the Norm Smith Medal, I stopped just short of shedding a tear, because I had told everybody I'd spoken to — every radio station, every podcast — Will Ashcroft will win the Norm Smith Medal, because this kid is special. As I was having all these conversations, I was thinking about a conversation you and I had maybe two years ago — when was it? It was just after he got drafted. It was pre-draft.

[39:14] He knew he was going to the Lions — because he's a son of one, but it was literally one week pre-draft. Now, I'm gonna leave the expertise on footy to you. Sure — obviously I have a little bit to do with different areas of AFL across a number of clubs, but where I came across Will, and why this conversation you're bringing up matters — I had a little bit to do with a thing called Red Bull Wings for Sport. Red Bull brought in ideally the ten best draftees from — what would you call them,

[39:53] AFL league, VFL — for the draftees, the ten best potential kids that we knew were gonna get drafted. Did Red Bull pick them, or did the AFL tell you these are the kids? We were helped by managers. The AFL has what they call the draft combine, an invitational event where all these kids get tested on broad jump, vertical jumps, speed endurance, all those sorts of things. Separate to all that — and I'll give you the overall goal —

[40:25] Red Bull came in, chose those ten, worked with their managers — this is just outside of AFL and footy — Red Bull had this thing, “give your wings,” right, and when they say give your wings, it's not just about the product, it's actually about giving wings to help sport, there's big investment in sport. So they brought these ten draftees in — Nick Daicos came through this program, there were a few others — well, that turned out to be a good pick.

[40:55] Turned out to be half good — reasonable. But what struck me on this day — I walked in, did a bit of a presentation, I was only there for a few hours — ten seventeen-or-eighteen-year-olds the week before they got drafted, and they'd just finished school, so I know for sure they just wanted to get out and party — it's probably the last place they wanted to be. But the goal of it was to introduce them to their clubs before they're signed and contracted, to give them an upskill. There was media training, we brought in some expert high performance coaches to give them a leg up and just talk to them.

[41:29] So I came in and had a chat to them, and whether they were interested in what I had to say or not, who knows — but out of all those ten we had there that day, only one came up to thank me. Have a guess who? Yeah, it was Will Ashcroft. I didn't preempt it, I didn't say anything, and funnily enough, I knew a few of the high performance crew at the Lions, so I got to have a chat with him. Once we got chatting, you could just tell — even then — he was super professional.

[42:03] He had one, just to say thank you, but two, I had a message in my inbox the next week. I didn't know that — you haven't told me that. Yep, just reaching out, saying hey — and look, to be really honest, I haven't really kept in contact that much, but it's those things that leave that lasting impression on you, and it doesn't surprise me at all he's doing what he's doing now. Yeah, and I remember we were out on a run when you told me this the first time, and it stuck with me — because he then got drafted, went to the Brisbane Lions,

[42:39] was straight into their best twenty-two, played from round one. And part of my job with the Triple M commentary team is I work with Simon Black, Tom Rockliff and Richard Champion — these former players who have levels of insight on these kids — and I was able to actually bring what you told me about Will Ashcroft to the table in the commentary box. I was telling them, hey, I've spoken with Courtney Atkinson, who's met Will, and I retold that story.

[43:09] And then when he got injured, when he did his knee last year — similarly, it was like, well, I know he's gonna be doing the work to get back as quick as physically possible from this knee injury. And that's been the whole story since the grand final — this young man who did his ACL, and from the moment he had the surgery, he was switched back on to getting back on the field, no distractions. And now he's won the medal for the best player on the biggest stage.

[43:41] And when you look at him — he's this twenty-year-old kid — I shouldn't call him a kid, because he's a man, he's earning more money than most people ever will. But he's a man who's already got a program called “Wash PW,” basically him showing people how to train like an AFL player. You think about Tom Brady and the TB12 method and all that sort of stuff, but he's a twenty-year-old who now has a cast-iron example of this is why you

[44:15] should be training like this. He's sweet — like I said, you meet someone, you get a really good idea of people when you first meet them. Not always, but generally you can get a good vibe straight up. He's professional, and what he's doing on social media is super professional — he's obviously looking at other ways outside of football where he can add value and set himself up. It's so professional, actually, that in today's age, it —

[44:46] it makes me think, you compare him to some of the AFL players who have massive social media followings at the moment — Bailey Smith. Let's compare him to Bailey Smith — he's up here training on the Goldie at the moment. So isn't it interesting what resonates with the wider public at the moment? Because I can guarantee you, Bailey Smith, a lot more people are looking at him at the moment. Absolutely — right or wrong reasons.

[45:16] Than Will, yeah. It's nearly like Will is the professional who was there ten years ago, when there weren't these other distractions around — it's a new world, it'll be interesting to see where that goes over the next few years. It's amazing how two people, two examples, can be so different. And this isn't just happening in football — it's happening in running as well, right? You're seeing people who put themselves out there, really noisy and looking for attention on social media, and then there are the

[45:51] runners who just get about their business — still on social media, but what resonates? This notion of run influencing — to circle back to the marathon conversation a bit — Tom Birmingham, who some people listening might know, is one half of Hello Sport. The Hello Sport boys are awesome, I love Tom and Eddie, I love the world they've created around Hello Sport, I think they do an awesome job and their audience loves them, and they're so good.

[46:22] But they have now — and Tom messages me, because Tom can't run for shit — Tom, well, he can run, he's run a marathon so I shouldn't say that, but he's not an athlete, right — Tom winds me up because he messages me regularly and says, does it annoy you that I'm a run influencer, because they've built this audience and built this world. Around the Sydney Marathon, they've created the Goers Run Club,

[46:52] which is basically a whole bunch of mostly mid-twenties to mid-thirties blokes giving marathons a crack because of Eddie and Tom. So does it annoy you? No, not at all — because coming back to what I think is the underpinning theme of this podcast, I just love people taking up running and trying it, whether you stick with it for one race or whether you get the bug and stick with it for years and it becomes part of your life and your routine — I just love it.

[47:23] Whatever your gateway into the world of running and fitness is, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. If you'd asked me that question when I was racing professionally, I would have said I hated it — being really transparent, yeah, it's taken away from your profession. At least, take me out of it for the moment — you're a professional runner, one of the world's best runners, it's your job, and you're hoping to attract sponsors and brands and everyone else.

[48:00] And we talked about the Hello Sport blokes — don't mind, well, they've got enough audience, they're the ones getting the shoes, they're the ones getting paid by the companies at the time. So when I was that athlete, I would have hated that. Do you reckon there's still some of that today? A hundred, two hundred percent. You're never gonna get everyone happy, right, and there'll be core audiences in the niche of performance running who — we talked about different run influencers last week — who are gonna, you

[48:37] know — I said it was so polarising, right, because you're gonna have one side of performance runners completely disgusted by what's going on. But in the end, like we talked about, it's marketing, right, everything comes back to marketing and how it works. And I'm on your side right now — you don't have to agree or disagree, but the fact is, if people are getting out there running, I just love seeing people run.

[49:08] But I don't have that competitiveness anymore to be fighting against it. That's a different — and that's why I like that now we can sit here and speak like this, because I suppose I'm outside the box enough that I can look back in. One of the biggest changes I've had in, let's say, the last five years, since I got out of purely triathlon as a profession, when a hundred percent of my livelihood was around how I raced, who supported me, and everything to do with my life was triathlon —

[49:44] when I left, funny enough, I haven't had a lot to do with triathlon, but what I have got to do is I've been exposed, through different work and different people, to a range of different sports now — and not only sports, but a range of different industries. What I suddenly realised is, when you're in that sport, in your own little bubble in high performance sports, it is a bubble — you're the big fish in a very, very small fish pond. Suddenly you get out in the world and you're a small fish

[50:16] in multiple big fish ponds, and it's insignificant. I realised this — I'm gonna tell a story. This was when I first got out and started going to speak at some different companies — larger organisations — I'd walk in, go to the boardroom, we're having a meeting, and I'd often get congratulated on winning the Hawaii Ironman. Which you've never won. Not only have I never won it, I never even went there.

[50:49] So my background was obviously winning in Australia, I was known for Olympics, and I was known for the big Noosa, because most people knew Noosa and the Olympics, but people didn't know triathlon more broadly. We went through a history in Hawaii Ironman where we had some great champions — Greg Welch, Craig Alexander, Chris McCormack — multiple winners.

[51:19] So did — Michellie Jones ever win the women's race? Sure, if she won, maybe second — no, my results aren't great, mate. But where I'm going with the story is, because the general public just knows Hawaii Ironman, and they see someone win it, to them it's just a person winning the Hawaii Ironman, they don't know the particulars unless you're in that sport. It's not so — like if you're right into footy, everyone expects you to know every AFL team and player, if you're into footy.

[51:49] Yeah, but the general public doesn't know every AFL player. I'd actually suggest a lot of the Suns walking around the Gold Coast, people probably wouldn't even recognise. You mentioned Nick Daicos — I bumped into Josh Daicos this time about twelve months ago, when the pre-finals bye was on, and he was coming out of the water at Burleigh, and I recognised him and went over and had a quick chat. I said, how much do you love life up here? And he's like, mate, no one has a clue who I am, I love it, it's great up here 'cause they can walk around unbothered. It's interesting you're talking about the bubble idea, and the idea that you get caught up in your world and think

[52:25] it's everything, and the moment you leave that bubble — it rings true with radio as well. Like Amanda Watts, who I worked with for a long time and people will know from the Robbo and Amanda days, she was in the radio bubble for twenty-one years. She left, called me a month afterwards, and said, Liam, we think radio is so important, and it's not. It's — you know, that idea that people in their jobs can get so caught up with what's going on in their world, and then when you step outside your world for a brief moment, you go,

[52:55] there's so much more going on. There's so much more going on. Anyway — come back, let's come back to radio and TV, because that's interesting, 'cause I think radio has come full circle, because TV, with streaming and everything, is starting to struggle even as free-to-air TV. Isn't it interesting how radio still exists as much as it's watched? But let me finish my story on the boardrooms — I'd literally walk into a boardroom, I'm a triathlete, and they'd say, congratulations on winning Hawaii Ironman. For the first five times, I'd go into this big explanation of,

[53:30] no, no, no, that's not me, I'm actually short course, I raced Olympics, this is my background — and I started to realise their eyes were just glazing over, they couldn't give a shit, they really couldn't. I just let it go now — someone introduces me as a triathlete because that's what I was known as, and I'm like, yeah, whatever, fine. In the end, the majority of people really don't care, and that goes back to what I said about past results —

[54:00] at the time, you're on top of the world and it's amazing. I look back now and I would never change anything, but the reality is what's happening now is what matters. Yeah, that's gonna stick with me, this idea — because I reckon if you ask the average person on the street, when I say “Australian runner,” who jumps to mind, for most people, I'd say for the vast majority, it's not gonna be someone who just ran in

[54:33] Paris. Whoa — I reckon they're gonna talk about these run influencers. We're not there yet, 'cause we've rushed this — no, but I think that's the first poll we'll do. I want to play a game, we'll save this — it's the first poll we're gonna do, we'll put up a few key runners, we won't say who they are, and we'll come back next week and tell you.

[55:03] All right, this is — again, we've got so much to unpack in this world and we're gonna continue to do it, and that's why I'm excited to do it, we could go on for another hour. But I want to put a pin in this — you and I have had this conversation before, and I really want you to share it with everybody about the idea of athlete branding. We kind of dipped our toe into it a little with Will Ashcroft versus Bailey Smith and the two very different experiences you get with their brands on social media. You and I have talked about Christian Petracca as an athlete, and the niche he's found for himself on social media around his food content.

[55:38] I want to talk about that more, because I think Red Bull plays a really interesting role with the athletes they pick and choose — that's another conversation we've had that I think people who might be on their long runs listening to this would be really interested to hear. But you're gonna have to save it for your long run next week, because I was about to give the whole thing away. We've been going for a while here, but before we finish up — you said something you're really looking forward to doing on this show, and I'm right here with ya — shoes.

[56:09] And you've brought in some shoes. I feel like we're doing breakfast television — you've brought in your show-and-tell like at school. You won't be able to see them on the audio, so we'll put them up on socials with pics. We're talking about shoes and how they've changed — I talked about my history, started in Reebok, then I was running in New Balance Japan. So I brought in literally the spare I had from when I raced the two thousand and eight Olympics — that's a long time ago now.

[56:41] And then I've got — I said I haven't run in a carbon plate shoe, but I've got the one out of the box sitting there from Salomon, a Phantasm 2, which is a carbon plate ten K lightweight shoe. I'm gonna give them to you — have a look at the difference and give me your first thoughts. Hold on, this one here — this is a New Balance RC5000. That's a two thousand and eight shoe, and pretty much it doesn't matter what shoe company you were running with, that was the go-to ten K race shoe.

[57:14] This is what you ran in at the triathlon — you throw this on, no socks. It's crazy light — that's insanely light. But also that sole — what did you say, it's not even half a centimetre thick? Well, you know what I'll equate it to for people — I'm trying to think —

[57:44] I'd say it's a Tim Tam, or half a Tim Tam. There's the gradient — it's a Tim Tam at the heel and it slopes down into half a Tim Tam at the toe, like — for anyone who's run cross country, you know, waffles — it's literally a cross-country waffle made for the road. At the time we were just looking for the lightest shoe you could possibly get. I thought it was great to run in — just foam though, no plate in it or anything.

[58:15] Just foam, and it's hard foam, not even soft foam — as light as you could possibly get it, responsive but light. Compare it to what you're holding — the Salomon Phantasm 2, great name — heavier, significantly heavier, but not a heavy shoe. I reckon if I had a Gel Cayano or something to compare — this is more like, for listeners, a Vaporfly, not the Alphafly, not the biggest.

[58:47] More aimed at the ten K runner. Okay, so if your two thousand eight Olympic shoe is a Tim Tam at the heel going down to half a Tim Tam at the — what are we doing now, we've got a few more calories on this one, this is like an upright Freddo Frog at the heel — I don't quite know how it's this thick — and then if you took the Alphafly, some of the newer ones coming out, like running in a pair of high heels — but it still maintains the thickness, tapers off towards the toe, but it's rigid.

[59:23] It's rigid. Most people would be quite familiar with this type of shoe right now — if you went to City2Surf, I'd take a stab at it, I'm thinking thirty to fifty percent of the field would have gone out and bought some type of carbon plated shoe from one of the brands. The shoe chat is so interesting —

[59:54] as they should, because they're proven quicker, right — so as they should. You can't call it a cheat shoe anymore because it's the norm. I mean it in the sense that it is a performance enhancing shoe — genuinely, it's like I'm a bad swimmer, and when I throw on a two-mil wetsuit, it's like, my god, floating is so much easier for me now.

[01:00:26] Those carbon plate shoes — yep, they're the norm, and everyone can get them, but it's kind of like, what's your real ability? Because if you throw a pair of those on, it enhances your ability with zero training. So are you a better runner? Well, it depends who you're comparing yourself to — if you're racing someone without them on, yeah, it's gonna help you, but if you're comparing your own time from one week to the next, and the difference is just the shoe — now I want to do this, because we're gonna get into this —

[01:00:59] I'm actually really interested over 5K, because everyone talks about 10K, marathons and everything else. Even just doing some testing around local parkruns, changing it up — maybe a parkrun will be the first time I get to wear one of these. While you think of yours, mine is — I think I've run sub-nineteen once, an eighteen forty-seven, I'd have to check.

[01:01:30] And that was in a carbon plate — a pair of Asics Metaspeeds. It wasn't an official race, wasn't a parkrun or anything — I literally found a track in Centennial Park in Sydney and went, all right, let's see how fast. It was part of — remember, a few years ago, Asics ran that global ekiden relay thing? It was part of that. So I'm gonna say I've got no real 5K PB, because the majority of everything I ran was off a bike — I don't think when I was running pure running I was young enough, I was too young.

[01:02:00] We were running three K's back through high school. And then I was in triathlon, so if you want to take a triathlon PB, we know what triathlon runs are like — it's probably a bit short. But I'm gonna take a stab — what do you reckon? I was a sub-fifteen runner. Do you reckon you could run that this weekend if you went out for it? I could probably get sixteen thirty.

[01:02:32] And I'd hope, if you give me four to six weeks of running and training, I'd hope I'm getting down. And if you put a pair — would it make any big difference? So if you went out and ran in your non-carbon-plate Salomons or whatever you're running in at the moment, you'd be hoping to get about a sixteen thirty. What do you genuinely think throwing those Phantasm 2s on would do to your time? Well, I'm only going by what other people have told me — I'm gonna take a stab at about thirty seconds for a ten K.

[01:03:05] I reckon it knocks off more than that. I can't believe I'm talking to you with a level of expertise on this. Well, sure — I look forward to actually finding all this out, and the reason I'm not throwing out any times is it's a bit of a — what would you say — I honestly don't know, and I'm actually really keen to get out there and use this, and you can hold me accountable. There's people out there right now who might be on their runs listening to this in a pair of carbon shoes going, what are you doing?

[01:03:40] Why are you wasting your time — it's like the kids who don't eat their Easter eggs that weekend, what are you saving them for, mate, just eat it, enjoy it. Carbon plates are the Easter eggs of the running world, mate, just get into them. Yeah, but I procrastinate — which one, and when's the opportune moment? You don't want to go out in a carbon plate shoe for the very first time when you're feeling crap.

[01:04:10] mate, if you wait and wait and wait, you'll never run in them. So, are we finishing on that? Let's finish up today — I look, again, we've gone over an hour already, but I think the thing that's gonna annoy me most about this podcast is every time we get to the end of one of these, there's another list of six other things I wanna pick up and continue talking about. Athlete branding is fascinating, because I really wanna pick your brain more about that, because you've been an elite athlete,

[01:04:42] you now work in the world of marketing, and you've got a unique set of expertise. I haven't even told everybody the story about the bloke I do my radio show with, Ben Dobbin, who broke his neck riding his bike last week — for Noosa, came off his bike. I haven't even got to tell everybody that full story, so I've still got to talk to you about that. First two topics for next week — let's wrap it up there. We're now — what, three episodes? — we've committed to three episodes now, so we're actually going. Just, if you like listening and you want to hear more, please tell some mates,

[01:05:17] and share it around, have a listen. We're committed to this, so we're gonna keep coming back, and we'll get — I mean, you're pretty polished, but I'll get more polished as we go. You're very impressive, Courtney. No, this is it — we're here, we're committing to this, we're gonna be here every week now. If you are enjoying it, share it — the best way you can support us in the early days is passing it on to people, because what we want to do is, if we can get as many people listening to this early on, we can start to have some more fun with it, get you involved with the podcast.

[01:05:49] And there is nothing better than being able to tell people you're onto something from the beginning — it's the greatest feeling, whether it's a TV show, a band, everybody loves being able to say, I was listening from the start. So be one of those people, make your friends those people as well. We'll have all the information about socials and where to find it and all the rest of it. But we're rolling with In the Beginning — that's what this podcast is going to be, In the Beginning with Courtney and Liam. Share it around, share the love. And Courts, we'll be back next week.