EP 18 - IF IT'S FLOODED, FORGET IT!

[00:00] In the beginning, episode 18. Courtney, we're back. No cricket talk today off the top — as great as it was last week to talk about young Sam Konstas, we've moved on from cricket. We're straight into running. Do you want to go straight into the summer of tennis, or should we talk about other summer sports? No — well, I know Nick Kyrgios is your favourite guy, but let's go straight to running today. And it's one of my stories where I've been an idiot. You know that saying, what's the saying in Queensland? If it's flooded, forget it. Yeah, yeah.

[00:30] So I was running in the forest at Nerang, and I wasn't going to tell this story because I was trying to keep it secret. We'd had a fair bit of rain, but I didn't realise we'd had so much on the weekend. I'd got company — I take one guy for a run and suddenly the next weekend eight people come out with me wanting to run. It was a great group. We did two hours fifteen in the forest, got down to the first creek crossing at Kasarina, where you know there's a few different streams, let's call it. But Nerang turns into rainforest when we get that much rain — waterfalls when we get

[01:02] that much rain. And I went to get across, leading the pack. I went to cross the crossing that I know quite well, and there are some sandstone blocks under it where the creek crosses, so normally you'd have pretty decent footing. Anyway, there was so much water I couldn't actually tell where the trail was going, and as I stepped off I must have missed the crossing and stepped off to the left of the trail — and literally there was nothing under me. Before I knew it, I was

[01:34] getting swept down the creek until I grabbed a tree. Now, I'm joking about it because the worst that's gonna happen in there is you'll probably get raked over a couple of rocks — maybe hit your head on a tree or something. So it's not the safest and sanest thing to be doing. I didn't see it coming — yeah, I've gone down. So then a mate of mine, Linds, came down after me. Thank God he's a lifeguard, but he went too. And that's why I'm telling the

[02:07] story — look, we weren't in any major danger, and it's not crazy out there, but it just reminded me, when big events happen and there's flooding, if you're in a river and there's a serious consequence to what would happen, you have no chance. I was hanging onto that tree with my legs streaming out behind me, it was that strong. That strong? Yeah — once I hit the water there was no chance we were swimming, we didn't even have a chance to swim back against that current.

[02:39] That's terrifying, because you're an elite athlete, and the blokes you're running with, as you say, are lifeguards and elite athletes as well. I'm just imagining the average runner — me — out there, potentially solo like that, and it would be terrifying. If you'd gone down there thinking, I go across here every week, and just went in and that happened, it would scare the crap out of you, number one. Gosh, look, I think you'd be fine, you'd probably be okay. So, then after that.

[03:10] So what did you do — did you finish the run? Well, we got everyone across, 'cause then I knew where the trail and the causeway were. But we had a great day out there, you know, rain and mud — that's part of being out on the trails and having fun. But I did change the course. I was gonna run them around a certain way, and I thought, damn, if that crossing's full, the big crossing's gonna be dangerous, and if we get stuck on the other side, our two-hour-and-a-bit run turns into a three-and-a-half-hour run. So I took them a different way.

[03:41] We did go and check out the crossing later and it was actually fine, so I think we might have just caught it right on that one torrential downpour. It's like they say — if it's flooded, forget it applies to the trousers as well as it does the rivers. Just quickly though, to expand more broadly — for your average runner, it's one thing to push on and persist with your running, your training, whatever it is, in the face of maybe you're

[04:11] tired, or you haven't fuelled up, or you're busy. But there's still a line that it's okay not to cross — I often think about this. To give you the counterpoint, and this is not the extent of flooded trails: I'm on pro hours now. Officially begun — this is week one in the books for the new radio show, Triple M Gold Breakfast, with Liesl Jones, Lehman, Spida, everybody — tune in if you can. But I'm now — my

[04:44] work day generally finishes around 10:30, 11. And now I don't have time to run in the mornings in the cool on the Gold Coast. So after the first day of the show, I'm committing to life as a breakfast radio host, but I don't want to get unfit or fall off my programme. So I went running at — I went for this run on Monday at 11:30, from along Currumbin, Broadbeach up to The Spit, or

[05:14] just, show her — show her The Spit — and then to steaming hot. Mate, you're going to get a great tan, you're going to be brown, you're going to be a proper Queenslander. But what a life, what a life. Again, I don't want to be seen to be complaining, but the idea of that — at some point I'm going to have days where it's too hot to run, and it's all well to acclimatise. But I think the average runner's also got to understand — yeah, you've gotta get the case done, don't make excuses. But if there are valid excuses —

[05:46] it's thirty-five degrees plus, or there are flooded trails — it's okay to pump the brakes. Yeah, a hundred percent. There are some days where it's too hot to run in the middle of the day, you're gonna have to wait till night time. But talking about events at the moment — obviously what's happening in LA is an absolute disaster. But let's, for the moment, just take the fires and what's happened out of it. If you were a runner in LA at

[06:16] the moment, or you wanted to try and exercise, I think that's the line, isn't it — because there'd be that much smoke around. Even down the coast away from LA at the moment, it couldn't be too good on the lungs. Well, there've been reports that because some of these buildings and homes that have gone are such old buildings, there's actually asbestos in some of them, so there's a genuine health hazard to be had there. And again, if you go back — I'm

[06:47] running for health reasons, for fitness reasons. If you ran there at the moment, it's detrimental to your health and fitness. Yeah, there's no benefit — that's the line, that's the line to draw, right, and it's a very easy line to draw. I'm sort of casually aware of what's going on in LA, we've done a bit on the radio show this week — but you were over there earlier, late last year, and you went running through the area that's being affected. Completely coincidental.

[07:19] I was starting my trail runs at Pacific Palisades, at the National Park entrance at the top where the school is — just complete coincidence, and that sounds like it's the epicentre of it. Can you picture, as we talk about it now, can you picture in your mind that run? I can — it was such a beautiful place to go and run. But what's crazy to me is the fact that you see

[07:51] the houses on the beach, and you're trying to get into your head that flames can jump that far and take out the beach. And what's also interesting — from an Australian perspective, having only spent a really quick amount of time there — when we have our big bushfires here, it generally rips through the gums, down south or even here in Queensland, through a lot of foliage and trees, and that's big fuel. I can't recall it being

[08:24] like desert shrub nearly up there — I can't recall there being so many big trees, but. I read something about the eucalypts over there — a transplant tree, obviously not native to the area — but there were some eucalypts that might have added to the cause of it. It's horrible to see, so — but our thoughts are with anybody who's got family or friends there, or is there personally. Truly, truly, it's a genuine tragedy — I think it might end up becoming the largest natural disaster in the history of the US.

[08:56] Wow — so yeah, thoughts with them. But onto more positive things at the moment — I've got this, I'll call it a testimonial. If we're going for a job as In The Beginning podcast hosts, this is what I reckon I'd use as our advocate for what we do here, and it's summed up — I think this sums up what I thought we'd be to our listeners when we started it. So, Keenan Jacobs has

[09:26] sent this to us and he's gone — g'day blokes. So he started well, worked. Just wanted to let you know — strictly identified agenda. Well done, Keenan — yeah, you couldn't tell from the voice. Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm bloody loving what you're doing with this new podcast. I'm a long-time country footballer who's obviously trying to keep fit, but putting you blokes in my ear is actually making me enjoy my running and wanting to make

[10:00] and want to make my running better going forward. The big standout to me is how real and honest you blokes are — you love a beer, a good time, you call out the flogs running for the wrong reasons, and you relate to the novice and experienced runners, having both of your outlooks. Love your work, boys. If you can't get an Australian testimonial better than that, that is it. Have you got one of them for your radio show? No, Keenan — feel free to tune into the radio show, mate.

[10:30] I'd love that. He's nailed it, he's actually nailed it — because what he said, I love the fact that he was a long-time country footballer. He wasn't an athlete growing up in a track sense, he wasn't a runner growing up specifically, he played football, right? And I think there are a lot of people — because that's what I did, I played soccer through year 12, I didn't actually start playing AFL as my sport till I was sixteen, and then I stopped playing AFL

[11:03] probably when I was about thirty. So I didn't actually take up running until I was thirty-two, so I've only really been running eight years. As my chosen, priority exercise — running — I've only been doing it since 2016, that was the year I started doing it and went, oh, this is really good fun, I enjoy this, let's go. That was the first time I ran City2Surf. Okay, and —

[11:34] great event, with a target — I wanted to crack a time and all that sort of stuff, and I got into it from there. So I think Keenan's clearly in a similar boat — football, an amateur football career is done, and I was only saying to Spida, who I do the radio show with, who's a 290-game AFL veteran — I asked him how his body's held up, because he's talking about doing the Kokoda Challenge later this year on the Gold Coast — the 96 on the Gold Coast.

[12:04] And he said, I'm fine. And we talked about the fact that I'm really happy I got out of my amateur footballing career, which delivered me no money or glory whatsoever, and I can run — because friends of mine can't. Running is off the table for them, knees are gone. What knees, what's the main thing? Knees, ACLs — okay, ACLs. And that's not to say if you've had an ACL you can't keep running, the surgeries have improved significantly, as I understand it, but generally the cartilage wears away, you

[12:38] know, arthritis becomes an issue moving forward, and it's much harder, and there's swelling and obviously there's pain. So I'm really glad I got out of my amateur footy career with running still as an option, and he can still run. Keenan's clearly the same. You're right, I think — do you know what I know you'll like most about that? That could be a review for the Alpha Blokes podcast, I know, which is a podcast I know you love, and I reckon Keenan's probably hit the nail on the head there. Yeah, he has, that's good.

[13:08] Great, thanks Keenan — welcome to the official testimonial-giver of the In The Beginning process. Well, as one of our probably one of four listeners, now it makes sense why we had cricket on the first bit of the show last week. That's right — well done, Keenan, thank you for the review. No, thank you. Quickly, I've got a bit of audio, but before you play it — quick pull back of the curtain for everybody. Courtney and I, when we started running up here on the Gold Coast, we'd have these conversations, and this is why we do this podcast now, because we'd come out the end of our

[13:38] runs and go, jeez, that was interesting. What we also talked about, and I don't know if you remember, but on one of those Nerang trail days, we talked about the idea of recording while running. Yes we did — and you'd experimented with it, I'd actually done a run in Sydney once, the coast run from Bondi to Coogee, with a GoPro strapped to my chest, just to see what it looked like as an experiment.

[14:08] And we talked about the idea of that, and we sort of said, oh look, it's probably a bit hard. And I remember, because I was thinking more serious audio, thinking about how do we get mics on us to take the wind noise out, and literally do what we're doing here — but on the trails, when you're not thinking about what you're speaking, not thinking about show notes or whatever's going on, that's when the good stuff really comes out. However, we both decided that our breathing in between words was never going to work.

[14:39] Well, no — if we genuinely recorded an episode like that while running, after the ten-minute mark I wouldn't be saying anything, it would just be Courtney telling stories and me occasionally going, well. It's still a challenge we could actually do one of, and bombs, it might bomb — we should try it just as an experiment and go out and do it and see what people think. But the reason I bring it up is because if you go to YouTube, Sir Mo Farah, the English multiple Olympic gold medallist, has started doing it.

[15:12] He's now doing — I don't know if it's called Runs With Mo or whatever it is — but essentially, he's a couple of episodes in, and he has a little chat with his guest, then takes them for a mile, chats along the way, and does more. It's very well edited and put together, almost like a mini TV show. He's already done the famous Arsenal manager Arsène Wenger, and he's done comedian Jimmy Carr — I did see a bit of the Jimmy Carr one, yeah. I think at one point he was pushing him, pushed him into the bushes or something.

[15:43] Pushed him in. Now, MO's a better runner than he is an interviewer, but I love it — I love that there's this piece of running content that's now crossing over into popular culture, with one of the greatest runners we've ever seen starting to bring in people like Jimmy Carr, this huge global comedian, and Arsène Wenger, from a sports background obviously. And do they talk about running, or — yeah, they talk about running. I haven't watched the Arsène Wenger one, but Mo talks to Jimmy about, do you run, did you

[16:16] ever run, and if not, what sports do you do, and all that, and talks to him about his career as well. But yeah, I encourage everyone — if you're a runner who enjoys that sort of content, go and check it out, look up Sir Mo Farah, that's the channel on YouTube. But this next bit of audio, for those who don't follow swimming and don't know who Dean Boxall is — if you recall the Tokyo Olympics, that's where he made himself famous, cheering on one of his charges, Ariarne Titmus, against Katie Ledecky, I think it was in the two hundred metres

[16:46] freestyle, correct? He went full — grabbed hold of an electric fence, blond hair up in the air like Doc Brown from Back to the Future, shaking the — well, shaking is a nice way to put it, I think he was assaulting the barricade at the swimming centre as Ariarne went on to create history. And that's who we're talking about. You know what reminds me — I remember this so clearly, for a couple of reasons. The first one is, remember Laurie Lawrence? He did it first with Duncan Armstrong, just

[17:18] typical, you know, Aussie larrikin who couldn't control himself in the grandstand. And then you see Dean doing this again — must have been twenty-odd years later — and it was just like the new Laurie Lawrence, but he's on another level again. Have you ever met Dean? I haven't — well, this is going to get interesting, because I obviously grew up swimming as well, around south-east Queensland, as a six-, eight-year-old, at a pretty

[17:48] I'd win nationals — you were an elite junior swimmer. Yeah, I could swim all right. And now, my memory serves me, Dean — I would have swum against him at points, 'cause he was a young swimmer himself. But I can recall Dean winning the GPS four hundred metres, if my memory's

[18:20] right — okay, so you like the fact-check. But yeah, and he won that, he was like probably on the borderline of Commonwealth Games standard. So your paths have crossed but probably don't know each other. Right, okay — anyway, this is Dean Boxall, who's now — as he said, he coaches Ariarne Titmus, he coaches Mollie O'Callaghan, he coaches the best swimmers Australia has to offer. This is him talking about the attitude he has towards training at the elite level. Here we go. I don't believe that you can rock up to the Olympics and rise to the occasion — I just do not believe that. I believe you're lowered to your training standard. That means your default level has to improve, right?

[18:51] So my training standard is very challenging for the guys, to the point they have to be doing world-record pace in training or they don't get a thumbs-up. I love that — so he doesn't give them a thumbs-up unless they're literally breaking world records in training. What do you make of that? Love it, he's old school, he is old school. And what I make of it — in swimming, when it's a sprint race, it's so true. Obviously when swimmers go

[19:21] into a taper for a major, they significantly drop time when they freshen up, because the traditional way of swimming they're doing such volume that they're so tired so often. And then they really — and the Australians do it so well, and that's why we've been so successful for so long in the pool, there's a system that knows how to peak for the majors and get the best out of their athletes. What Dean's saying here — if I'm reading into this in my own way — is, hey, if I can have them doing world-record pace in training while they're tired, I don't,

[19:54] you know, when they come out of their taper at the World Champs or the Olympic Games, I know what's going to happen. I heard it, and I kind of wanted to talk about it with you today because you've been to the Olympics — I think as an average runner, sometimes we think it'll be all right on the night. Like, as long as I get there, I'll be able to find something on the day, even if I maybe haven't got there during my lead-up to the race or the event, whatever it is I'm targeting.

[20:26] But even though you're not going to the Olympics, I now look at it and hear what Dean's saying, and there I go — if you've done it in training, it's like you've got the answers to the test. But hang on, let me — I did say this applies to swimming. You don't think this applies to running? No. Really, why not? Well, I'll put it in simple terms — if you were running a half marathon, you know, a

[20:57] marathon, half marathon, even a 10K, and you went into training trying to break your PB, how would you pull up? You'd be destroyed for weeks. Swimming's different — one, no gravity involved, you're in the pool, so you don't get that muscle breakdown when you're going that hard, and two, it's short, so you're getting away with it because it's more like repetitions of shorter reps. If you go to running and you're

[21:27] trying to run out race distances at world-record pace or PB pace, it's gonna wreck you. But what you do need to be able to do is show yourself that pace in simulated ways — whether it's repetitions, or in simulated ways, if you're doing a long run, there might be a certain component of that long run where you're hitting those marathon paces or certain specific paces. But with running, I'm gonna disagree —

[21:57] we can't go out there and — you will break. I'm so easily persuaded, because I've watched that reel from Dean Boxall and I'm like, okay, well, this is how I'm gonna try it — and now you've told me otherwise, I'm like, okay. I go with the wind, well, on running structure — and there may be people out there who completely disagree with that as well, but I can tell you, if you put it in the most simple terms, common sense — if you go out trying to do marathon-pace or half-marathon-pace efforts in training when your marathon's your thing, you're wasting your legs.

[22:30] I love it, I love it — well, that's a perfect little segue, because speaking of marathons — I'm sick of hearing it, but I can't help feel we're somewhat responsible for all this, because since we started discussing it, marathon running in Crocs has become a thing, Courtney — a really big thing. So much so that a bloke from Adelaide now has the world record. I think he's from Adelaide, I don't know exactly where he's from, but he broke it in Hobart, at the Hobart Marathon on the weekend, and he ran 2:49.

[23:03] Dan Carmack is his name — shout out, Dan, well done. I wonder if he ran in those bright — in the picture we were looking at, he had the bright yellow ones, yeah. He was on The Project earlier this week — got them in sports mode. Do you reckon he runs like half a size too small, to make sure it's got a good solid fit? Well, interestingly, I watched the interview with him — have you seen the interview he did on The Project? No, I don't know. He didn't actually train in

[23:33] them — he basically put them on, checked that they wouldn't slip off at the pace he was going to run the marathon at, and then just went about his training. So he didn't actually do a proper shoe check — he probably didn't have much idea how his legs were going to hold up, he said he didn't really know how he was going to shape up post-10K because he hadn't done any real training in them. But what he did say, talking about Crocs — and we've talked a

[24:05] bit about shoes on this — is that they're actually pretty good to run in, because from a firmness and sponginess point of view, it's kind of almost like a proper shoe. We've given this too much — so I want to know, did Andy Buchanan get on The Project when he broke the Australian marathon record? No, we didn't — fastest ever marathon by an Australian! And here we go — we're talking about Crocs, which is partly our fault, but staying on this train — I got this sent to me by a lot of people this week.

[24:35] I'm not mentioning it because there were — this came through from a lot of our listeners. Yeah, I got sent this one too, so let's stay on this train — Kendall Lloyd sent me this from Thailand. Now, this is legit, because we were joking about Crocs and carbon plates — a company in Thailand called Ai-Run has got the world's first carbon-plated sandals.

[25:06] They've put a carbon plate in a pair of sandals, and if you don't think this is legit — I can't read Thai, so I don't know what marathon it is, but we've got a runner who's run 2:18:55, winning in these sandals. Now, they look like a pair of thongs with the sports-mode base from the Crocs, carbon-plated. What do you reckon? Well, I guess, not to go back to Croc man, but

[25:36] it goes to show — fundamentally, I'm sitting here in a pair of Nike Pegasus, and this is just foam and rubber on the soles of these things, and that's what thongs and Crocs are too, foam and rubber in a variety. The uppers on the elite speed shoes, the super shoes these days — the Alphaflys or the Metaspeeds or whatever — are basically nothing, they're only enclosed because traditionally that's what shoes have been. So if you're going to slip your toe in between the thongs like —

[26:06] you're liking the innovation here — what you do need, though, is a pair of those Japanese toe socks to go with them, because having that thong in the middle of your toes, you're not going to run too well without them. Socks feel weird — have you ever worn those, they feel weird? These are going to feel awfully weird. Have you worn toe socks before? I've worn toe socks before, have you? Did you ever get caught up in the barefoot running phase, those shoes that had — I have worn a pair, you're thinking of the brand which is

[26:36] Vibram — oh, that's Vibram, Vibram FiveFingers, so I do know a bit about them, I've got a pair in the garage. Do you ever run in them? I did — I ran an event called Red Bull Dune Dusters in them, which was a 10K sand-dune race at Newcastle, all soft sand. They weren't great, because when you're in soft sand you want to run barefoot if you can. I was concerned at the time, because I was doing other racing, that running 10K hard in the soft sand would destroy my soles and my feet. So I went and bought a pair of

[27:06] them, and running in them, they're fine — I'd go running in them on the road too. That was a massive thing, what, ten years ago? I reckon I'll still have them in the garage when we finish up here — I'll give them to you, and you can go for a run and let us know what you think about the old barefoot thing. 'Cause there were people who swore by it, and I think trends come and go. Do you know the biggest — thinking about different shoes and innovation, 'cause that's what we're talking about here with these sandals —

[27:38] the brand's name has just slipped my mind — what was it, Newton, have you ever heard of Newton running shoes? No. So Newton was a brand that came out, I'm gonna guess maybe about ten to fifteen years ago, prior to all this — prior to carbon plates — they had this kind of lug system at the front of the shoe, so it looked like when you stepped on them, there were these three lines, nearly like a spring, protruding out of the bottom of the shoe, and as you landed on

[28:11] the ground on your forefoot they'd push up inside the shoe and give you a rebound coming out on your return. Now, triathlon, as they always do, kind of got hold of this and went, this is us, and took them out — I've got a feeling Craig Alexander may have even won a world Ironman championship in Newtons. I had my fastest ever 10K triathlon run off the bike in a pair of Newtons as well — actually, I had a

[28:41] sprint finish in Korea with Jan Frodeno, and he took me down by a metre, but I was in a pair of Newtons. Really? Yeah, we were running some sub-thirty-minute in a pair of Newtons — I'm just having a look at them now, Googling them. Here it is — and they're long, long gone. I don't know if carbon plates killed them off or what did. You'd be really interested to know why they got killed off. But, so — on, you know, the Clouds were just like — they've obviously lasted and they're booming at the moment.

[29:11] But it's the same kind of scenario — when they began it was innovation, they had these true air pockets on the Clouds, and from what I've heard, the first models were pretty average unless you were being paid to wear them. And they've now developed into, from what I understand, some of the best shoes around, though I haven't worn them. It's funny, these Newton shoes — I'm just having a look at the lugs, the springs you talk about — it just made me remember the episode of The Simpsons where Homer designs the car.

[29:42] That's just the horrible waste-of-money, ugly car — it feels like looking at these Newtons, I'm like, this feels like the refined idea of a child who went, why don't we put springs on our shoes as a way to run faster? They worked, though — they worked. I wonder if I've still got a pair of them out there somewhere. Wow, we're going shoe-shopping — American Pickers through Courtney's shoe garage, I love it. But yeah, they worked, and I remember Craig Alexander for years had some of his

[30:14] best Ironman and half-Ironman racing done in those Newtons. There you go — one last little one while we're on these weird shoes. Max Callahan sent us a message, because we were talking about slides and thongs and what's good for your feet, so I didn't have to trudge around in a pair of Birkenstocks — and he said OOFOS pluggers are a good brand, O-O-F-O-S. So if you're looking for a good pair of pluggers with a bit of support — okay, give them a try.

[30:44] Yeah, let us know what you think, 'cause I looked at them and, just by the look of them, I was kind of like, yeah, probably not — still, I'm still looking for a replacement. Hardly a shout-out for OOFOS. Now, we're just catching up on a couple of things we talked about last week — if you're listening, we were talking about the days when you didn't have GPS watches.

[31:15] Yeah — you know, did you really know how far you'd run when you were guessing the distance? I got a — have you got any good messages? I got a message back on that reel, and you know, we talked about Keenan at the start of the show, who gave you that testimonial, as a former football player — I got a message back from Max Dudley, also a former footy player, played rugby league at a very good level. He said — I can't use the language he used — bring back the just-run mentality.

[31:46] Just run, just run, just run. Yeah, good — so, I loved that reel, I got a few other comments about the idea of guessing distance. So off the back of that — there's a run, if you're on the Gold Coast or up in Brissy, where they do a run out in the trails where Steve, from Trail Trips and Events — Trail Trips and Events, yeah — he pretty much sets this up, and they have a guessing game. You run the Goat Loop, a loop out there, I think it's about maybe 7K, and

[32:19] you take your watch but you're not watching it — he times it, and you've got to guess how close you can get to your time, and then they have a winner. It's on the 27th of January. So — can you go, because I'm still away? You won't be away, but I'm gonna try and get out there, because it looks great, and if you're not on the Gold Coast and can't do the Goat Loop race, this is something you can do yourself. I'll put the link in the show notes if anyone's interested — this is something you could just go and set up. Go and map out a 5K course, go and map out a 2K course —

[32:52] no, but you're not meant to know that — I'm just saying, for other people. And then see if you can run it to time, as an alternative, if you want to set up a course for yourself. And if you can do that, then you can come and start giving me shit, okay — yeah, then you can get stuck into Courtney. I like it, I like it. More loose ends from last week and from earlier episodes, Courtney — so this is the last one I think we were talking about, and I was being really open and honest here with you, saying I'd really wonder how

[33:23] slow — like, if you're just out running, you know, how slow is slow when you've gotta run? So I said, my pace, I'll run an easy run anywhere between four minutes to five-minute kilometre pace. Someone else might find five-minute kilometre pace like a racing pace. How slow is slow, and what should you start at, in terms of flow pace and breathing? I don't know his name — good day, fellas, dual citizen back in the UK, an Aussie living over in the UK now, he's listed all these running-coaching achievements, so —

[33:57] which is a joke — if you haven't gone right through the catalogue early on the pod, Courtney talked about, when we were talking about the idea of running coaches and who to trust, we joked about the idea of, have they been to running-coach school, is there a running school, did you get a diploma? And apparently there is — well, in UK Athletics he's saying Level 1 is a jog leader, you can take that, and then you're insured as well.

[34:27] You get insurance for non-track work, and only over eighteen — so obviously no Blue Card in that one, I like that. So you're supervised by a Level 1 coach — he's a Level 1 coach, which means he can train groups, individuals, anyway. So they do have a run school, there's a legit system to this — anyway, he said, hope this helps, and this is his information — he coaches beginners, and easy pace for new runners, he trains

[34:59] them to run at fully nasal pace. What's nasal pace? Well, I'm gonna take a guess — it means you can run by only breathing through your nose. And I guarantee everybody out there listening right now, if they're running or whatever, has just closed their mouth and breathed in through their nose for a second. I've never really thought about it — have you, have you ever — pace, have you ever, sorry, let's finish off on what

[35:29] flow pace is — no, we'll come back to it, because I've got something. Have you ever heard people talk about Chris Wooley, yep, Hardrock — yep — who you've done some stuff with? He often, when I see him post on his Instagram page, talks about nasal breathing. Yeah, right — whenever he starts doing it, I've tried it, I reckon I tried it for about 400 metres once and I went, nah, that's pretty hard, and I gave up on it. But do you know much about it?

[36:00] No, okay — but where I was going, so, I don't know much about the whole nasal-breathing thing, but I can recall, over the years of doing this, a few different methods run coaches would use. One was, breathe in your nose and out your mouth, and that might be — look, I'm not advocating that, I whatever — how do you breathe? Well, look, I can't say I've actually thought about it lately, but one thing I did, when I was training up in Brisbane around Pat Clohessy's squad —

[36:30] I'm not sure who gave the advice, but there was something around, to control your breathing, breathing in and running four steps, then breathing out on the fourth step. So you're actually matching your breathing to your running cadence — not a performance benefit here by any means, I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying it was a way to try and control your breathing if it was getting out of hand, which then, in some effect, controls the pace you're

[37:00] going, and figures out if you can run, say, four steps breathe in, four steps breathe out, then you're running at a pace that's easy enough for you to get benefit — you're not overdoing it. Got you, got you. I've got no expertise in all that, I don't follow breathing, so take it with a grain of salt. Back to this — how easy is the easiest running, say, coaches training beginners at an easy pace for them is nasal breathing, as it pretty much equates to zone two. That's interesting — and they don't need a Garmin or to know their pace, he finds these new runners' pace can be about fifteen minutes

[37:32] per kilometre. Geez, yep, now that is slow. So this is what we're talking about — depending on what you're running as a beginner, what is the pace? He's saying they could be up to fifteen minutes a kilometre, they do parkruns in forty-five minutes plus, and they're going flat out. So to anybody out there right now thinking, I'm lugging along at seven minutes per K, you're not slow to these people — these people are looking at a

[38:02] ten-minute PB, a ten-minute improvement on their PB, to keep up with you. So don't be discouraged if you think you're running slow. No, you've been a bit aggressive with these people, but these people, these nasal breathers, they're runners because they're getting out — it could be an older male or female getting out in their seventies and just wanting to achieve a parkrun, and that would be their pace. We're going to get a lot more information as we go through the year on this, because I'm not

[38:33] going to — I think this was great information, but it's not our information, I just thought it was interesting. We've got something there — if you're out running, just try and have a nasal breath, see if you can do it for a K, because it's a strange sensation. I'll let you report back on that. Yeah, and talking about that — you obviously started the new show, that's right, you got the new job, going into your second day — what else has been happening? As I mentioned at the top, pro hours training now for me, and heat, I'm going to have to find

[39:06] ways to adapt to that, because there are just going to be days I'm not going to be able to run post-11am, it's just too hot. I actually did 13Ks and reckon I was running at about 4:50 pace, and I was hot, but I felt really good — the body feels quite good right now, 4:50 pace felt quite comfortable, so temperature aside I wasn't gassed. It was actually quite a

[39:37] nice run, aside from the heat. But interestingly, last Saturday when I was out with my Main Beach run group — Eddie, Gordon, friends of people you know, Ree Craven and Will Davidson, her husband, a supercar driver, Ree — part of Channel 7's supercar coverage, Ree, famously from the Noosa Triathlon Celebrity Legends Race, had a crash on her bike. We talked about it — how's she going, is she all right? She's back running, she's back on her bike,

[40:08] she's — yeah, she's back, smile on her face, you can't keep Ree down. But interestingly, on our way back, we do a 10K run with this group, and at the turnaround point Adsi said, right, I want you to go back at seven out of ten pace, okay, and I offhandedly went, oh jeez, I don't know what my seven out of ten pace is. He pulled out the RPE chart, and — without missing a beat, Adsi turned to me and said, Liam, you just did a whole episode about figuring out your five out of ten

[40:39] pace, and I was like, oh no, I haven't. But it's interesting, because it's easy to understand what your zero is, easy to understand what your ten is, and it's kind of easy to figure out your five — but figuring out that six, seven, eight, nine, or conversely four, three, two, one, is an exercise in itself. So I'm sort of figuring out where my seven out of ten pace is at the moment — where it is, I've lost that, I was just trying to — I posted it on the — I know, and it's the story from last

[41:10] week, trying to find the chart, because the funny one that came from South Africa was all about — I think the last one was like, ten, you're running for your life. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, ten is your — that's your running for your life, yep, if ten is running for your life, what's seven? And five is where you can comfortably cruise along. What's your seven? And I think I found out — I think I ended up running that last 5K back, I averaged, I probably ran at about 4:20

[41:40] pace. Jesus. Well, moving, 4:24, 4:25 pace, and it felt like a good pace, for me, reasonable. And what Adsi said to me — I talked about because I said, what's my seven out of ten pace — and then Ree gave me a bollocking, which I thoroughly deserved. But Adsi, what he said was, well, when you get back, don't be knackered, don't be exhausted, don't be cooked, don't be tired. And I got back and I'd run it, and I'm like, I'm not tired. So I think you did it right, so I think I did it right — you listened to your

[42:13] body, that would make sense. But before we move on to your Fraser adventure, I do want to flag a dilemma I have in my running wardrobe at the moment. We love talking about equipment, we love talking shoes, we've had some watch chat — you've talked a little bit about the danger of white T-shirts in your running wardrobe, because they end up going see-through. I love Nike, I've got a pair of Nike Pegasus on right now, but what I will say is, Nike — I've got two pairs of Nike running shorts which present me an enormous problem. I was running along the front

[42:45] the other day, doing a pretty — I was running at my five out of ten pace, yep, and felt good, ticking along — and I was getting a lot of looks as I was running past. I don't know if I want to — the show's only just started, so I'm not so naive as to think I'm being recognised, but I did think, I'm getting more glimpses than I would normally. The shorts, these two pairs of shorts — when you sweat in them,

[43:23] it somehow funnels straight down so it looks like you've pissed yourself. What colour are they? They're like an olive green. Well, this is your mistake from the beginning — this is why you choose black in Queensland for everything. And that's why I will never be able to run in anything other than black now, because these shorts I've been running in just look like I couldn't be bothered going to the toilet. I know it — I can visualise it now because I've seen it happen. I know, I know, I know the dilemma. Now I blame myself as much as

[43:55] I'm having a go at Nike for it — I blame myself, because they were on the sale rack, I got them at a discount, that's probably why everyone knew what was wrong with them. But I've got to find a way out now, I've probably only got three pairs of shorts I can run in, because there's this pair and a blue pair that just — okay, we need to get you a proper pair of black shorts, add that to the garage list on the way out, because I've talked about how biased I am — I obviously run for Salomon, but the one thing I think they do

[44:28] amazing is their shorts, they're top of the range, trail shorts, amazing — let's see, what's your size? I'm a 32. Are you? I say I'm like a 32 on a good day. Oh really — I am genuinely a 32. No, I'm a 32, so I got a pair the other day and they only had a 33 left, and I've worn them, and hopefully we should be able to sort that out on the way out and solve that problem. So in short, if you see me running along the front of the beaches down around Currumbin of

[44:58] late, I don't have an incontinence problem — people can't be getting to the toilets, it's the shorts, I swear. And they don't know it's from the podcast, which is a good thing. So, how was Fraser? Well, I was concerned because I really didn't think I'd be able to run on Fraser, and the good news is I did get to run on Fraser, so I only got 50K out for the week, which, whatever, by my

[45:29] standards is a lot. 50K, how many hours was that? Yeah, feel free to pick me up on that. So Fraser, yeah — I was over at Kingfisher Bay Resort, so we were doing the four-wheel-drives out each day to go to all the different places on Fraser, and I think, like everyone tells you not to go to Fraser Island — Fraser Island, for those listening overseas or who don't know, is an island off Hervey Bay in Queensland, up north of Brisbane, the biggest sand island in the world — in the world, yeah. Known for the dingoes,

[45:59] known for beautiful, pristine freshwater lakes as well. Everyone says, school holidays, don't go there, people are gonna bog, you're gonna be in congo lines, it's awful — no, it was brilliant. We were driving across the island from Kingfisher, an hour and a half or an hour fifteen drive — yeah — and we didn't run into five cars. Oh, really — never had any issue, not one. Did get to Lake McKenzie one day, and we got there about 10am and the car park was full, and it's nearly self-seating, so once that car park's full there's nowhere else to park, you just have to come back later

[46:31] in the day, so it actually controls how busy it can get. But really, mate, I'd heard all these horror stories — brilliant, so you've done a great job for tourism Fraser Island. But I'm curious to know how you ran, because for those who don't know, it's dingo-infested and they say don't run. So there's dingo fences around the resort — the resort's on the western side of the island,

[47:02] the non-seaward side of the island, and I was thinking the dingo fence — because I've been there a few times and seen the fence — I was thinking I'd probably just be running around the back of the resort, so I was thinking I'd be stuck in a 1K radius. The reality is, the dingo fence runs about three-by-three K, there's a kilometre of trail climbing there, there's a road I never knew existed, up there was a hill I did — so what I did do, I didn't have much time, we had to get going in the morning, so — and this is like, if you're ever on holidays and you just need to get something done quick and you're not really sure what

[47:33] to do, and you can't fit in a full session — my go-to is, if there's a hill there, warm up and then just go and start repeating the hill. This hill was bloody tough — I was running two minutes up this steep hill, did a few repeats of that one day, went up the trail section one day, found a few other trails through there. Mate, it was a great run — I still just didn't, it wasn't the location, it was just, I was busy, I didn't have the time, so —

[48:05] so you got to run on Fraser — got to run on Fraser, and then on the weekend I've already explained Nerang, we had a great group out there in Nerang and it was a very eventful day. And then this morning I was up at The Spit on my usual fartlek, on a Tuesday — and I suppose when I was running with the elite mob back at Gold Coast Run Co years and years ago, if we ran out, say we did a twenty-minute fartlek, we'd run out, turn around at ten minutes and run back, and then you're chasing the people who haven't run out as far. It's a great way to include everyone in the session,

[48:37] and I know pretty well, not the distance, but we just know the point you get to at ten minutes — if you can get to the Spit trail and onto the seawall, you can get to like the coast guard's tower, yep, like your Tim Vincent, if you just creep out. You know, you're going well — and I made it, I reckon I got about forty metres out on the seawall today, which I haven't done in a while, so you are running well.

[49:07] I was going to say all — no, but this is what it comes back to — I think if you were to track your mood around your running, even just across the episodes of the podcast, you are running well, you made the seawall, that was an achievement. Yeah, that's amazing. Quickly before we move on, because we're about to get to some of these WTF events that keep coming in — a couple of weeks ago, maybe four weeks ago, you talked about the idea of kunanyi

[49:39] and potentially going down there — I don't want to say you've failed to disclose the seriousness of this race, but over the last week I've spoken to someone who did that race, and let me re-enact the conversation for you. I was standing there, and the two guys I was with, Whippet and Rady, who you know, both of

[50:11] them — Whippet started talking about kunanyi, and Rady said, who's doing kunanyi, and Whippet said, oh, Fanas is doing kunanyi, and Rady — the look on Rady's face as he looked at me and said, you're doing kunanyi. And I kind of, wait — yeah, Rady said, that's the hardest race I've ever done. And we were out the front of Whippet's house, and Whippet's got this big hill that runs next

[50:42] to his house, and then Rady proceeded to look at me and said, if you're going to do kunanyi, do you know what a good training session would be? Walk that hill a hundred times — that would take me all day to try and do that. Yeah, I accuse you, Courtney Atkinson, of not properly preparing and briefing me for this trail race. Is it as hard as Rady's saying? You have to run up Mount Wellington to begin with. I've never been to Mount Wellington,

[51:12] I don't know what Mount Wellington looks like. Well, you've heard of the Pinnacle race, where they run up the road? Not really, no. The Pinnacle Road run — I think it's a half marathon, so that starts to put it into context, a half marathon uphill, right, all uphill. Well, give me some context — I've done UTA 50, how much harder is it? This is more of a true mountain race versus a trail race, in the sense of — look, I don't know my stats so I'm not going to start

[51:42] rattling them off, but let's just say, for argument's sake, you start at the water where the Sydney to Hobart race finishes, the yacht race, so you're at sea level. There's a vertical kilometre, so it's going to go up over a thousand metres — that's just the beginning. That's the beginning, well, and that doesn't make up the whole course. Then when you get to the top you get to run around some rocks and a few other things up there. It'll be fun, mate. How long is this going to take me?

[52:12] Well, it depends on what distance you want to do — before, I've run up the trail, I've done the race. How long are you budgeting for it to take you? I haven't even thought about it, I just thought it'd be a great place to go and run. We looked at two photos, we looked at Noosa and we looked at kunanyi, and I was like, Mount Wellington looks way more interesting. The flats of Noosa seem way more — sounds like you're having second thoughts. I'm genuinely nervous now, getting really scared, the crap out of me anyway. Well, onto mountains —

[52:42] my first WTF of the week is the Tianmen Mountain jumping competition in China. It's not uphill running, this is downhill running — think of a kids' obstacle course, and putting that on the steepest section of the Great Wall of China. These guys are like — what's that show on TV, where the guys do all the gym stuff —

[53:12] Ultimate Warrior? No, no — Ninja Warrior, Ninja Warrior. So think of Ninja Warrior for a kilometre downhill, and they've just put all these obstacles and boxes on steps, and these guys are fanging it. It's kind of like parkour, yeah, like free running. Who's the guy who does free running, the Aussie fella — Dom Tomato? Did you see him the other day? He'd be a gun at this. Did you see Dom the other day, I think he's got the most

[53:42] views ever on an Instagram reel — really? I'm not going to try and quote the number, but I'm assuming it's a crap-load. So he had the most views ever on a reel — do you know what he did? Have a guess what he did, he's a free runner — what do you think he did to get the most views ever on a reel? I'm guessing he did some sort of big drop or big jump, something. He jumped off a building, tried to get across the water, and smacked his head on a piece of concrete — he was eating it, yeah.

[54:12] Oh my gosh — I'm just bringing it up now, having a look at it. What are you looking at? I'm watching the reel, oh no — I'm watching that reel. Zero-zero. This is the mountain — the mountain run? No, I think you're looking at Dom. No, I am watching Dom — oh, you're watching Dom Tomato. And that's why — how many times have you watched it now? I'm watching it again, yeah — I know, it looks like he hits his head but he actually catches himself under —

[54:43] but again, we'll put it — I agree, you'll have to remind me to put that one in. Nine-ten, I need to write it in — seven hundred and ten million views it's had. Seven hundred and ten million, so let's put Dom — and now it's going to have seven hundred and ten million and three, because I'm going to, yeah, we'll put that in the notes for everyone, I've just put it in the notes. Anyway, what do you reckon about the mountain run thing, I love it — no, I'd do

[55:13] that, I'd absolutely do that, you've got to have flexibility for that, I'd be terrible at it but I'd still do it. Yeah, that's good, I like that one — I like it, but it's not my favourite of the day, so we're getting into the better stuff, I'm going to play some audio. Here we go — you got that, oh yeah, yeah, so I'm

[55:45] going to do the translation here — and the runner, you can hear him breathing deeply, he's saying, I need a chicken leg, I need a chicken leg. This is the Jining Taibai Lake Half Marathon in Shandong, and they have a chicken aid station — people are grabbing chicken wings and breasts, and they go, the rice and chicken is rich in protein and other nutritional components, can replenish the energy for

[56:16] runners. But this guy can't find his — he can't find the chicken leg, he doesn't want the wings, doesn't want the breast, he needs his leg. How would you go consuming chicken mid-race? I reckon if I was running hard it'd be a hard swallow, wouldn't it? Yeah, I'm just trying to imagine putting it, even in a sandwich, it — depends how hard you're going, food is food, but if this is an energy station, it looks like a — what would you say it is, half

[56:47] marathon, half marathon — if you could have anything you like at the aid station at the Gold Coast Marathon when you're running through, what would you choose? Anything — the times I've run marathons, and even UTA, any time I've gone into that hurt locker where I need things in me, sugar, I hit a point in those runs where the last thing I want to see is

[57:17] anything sweet, because whether it's gels or goos or whatever, or even the electrolyte drinks, there's a sweetness to everything, and my mouth, your taste buds are just craving anything but that. And then the irony is, the moment I finish, I see people drink beers, I don't understand how they do it, because after any run, it used to be a footy game, all I wanted was a freezing cold can of Coke, I think. You're just going to say a Coke?

[57:51] No, I'm not — do you know what actually was a welcome relief on those trail runs I've done, is a honey and peanut butter sandwich, where it no longer resembles a sandwich because it's been squished up in the back of my pack for so long, so it's almost just this sandwich ball — back to basics, like being a kid at school when you shove the brown paper bag into your school bag,

[58:22] stepped on it a few times, and then finally you've got to eat it for lunch. There's no greater realisation moment, no greater example of when that fuel is just food, taste doesn't matter, than in the middle of one of these things. But chicken would be a bridge too far for me. What would you love — you know what, a few times, more in the trail races than the road races or tris, I just wanted a Slurpee.

[58:53] Oh yeah, like a prop, when it's a hot day — I had one of those down at Kirra. Yeah, like two, three weeks ago, I was at the half point, I was about nine Ks into a run, then the 7-Eleven stop — yep, 7-Eleven at Kirra there. That's great — so a fifty-second stop that saved you. They're so cheap, so cheap and cool, and it just gives you that instant — cools you off, gives you a sugar hit, then you roll on. Yep, so I want a Slurpee station.

[59:23] Okay, and then finally, rolling off that, I was then looking at what weird things you eat or see at events, and this one — have you heard of the Krispy Kreme Challenge? Well, I've got my own Krispy Kreme challenge — how do I eat these and not tell my wife about them? But, she doesn't tell us too much, but I'll explain it — it started back in 2004, a dare between a couple of college kids at NC State. Now it's a full-blown charity race — four thousand runners, they go 2.5 miles and then to a Krispy Kreme shop, and they've

[59:54] got to eat twelve doughnuts before returning. How would you go with the dozen? No, I'd be able to get that done — you reckon you'd get it in? What's 2.5 miles in Ks — it's like, not that far, what is it, 1.6, so 2.5 is about four Ks, yeah, close to four. Okay, what would you run 8Ks in at the moment? You're asking questions I've got to do maths for, Liam. Well, it's not that hard, Liam —

[01:00:26] you went to two Olympic Games, you're an athlete, you should be able to do this maths in your head. Could you run three-minute pace for eight Ks at the moment? No. Could you run three-thirties? Yes. Okay, let's say we give you three-thirties, yeah, well jeez, I'm a bit quick on the three-thirties — oh well, let's just say three-thirties, so you're going to run twenty-eight minutes, yep. How fast could you — how would you go eating doughnuts, twelve doughnuts? Depending — see, this is where it comes down to what doughnuts, if they're going to Krispy

[01:00:57] Kreme — yeah, I reckon I could do the Krispy Kreme glazed, 'cause they're airy, yeah, they're air — if you went to the other mob, Dunkin' Donuts, with the heavy icing, but even their cinnamon ones, you know, you get three cinnamons for six bucks or whatever, if you told me to do twelve of them you'd be struggling, they're doughy. The reason I ask is because I'm wondering whether this is a race where you and I — I might actually be in it, given I'd catch you up on the eating. I reckon if we did the Dunkin' Donuts challenge instead of the Krispy Kreme challenge —

[01:01:28] then I'd be a chance. You'd be in there — I reckon I'd struggle, you'd have to look, do you know what I'd go through, Robina Town Centre? Yeah, I can hardly just smell them now, it's hard to walk past, now I want a donut so badly, alright — there's some good WTF events there, the food edition of the WTF events as well, right? What do we need to get to — we've got some questions people have sent in, because we love getting the expertise of one Courtney Atkinson. We'll get to those in a moment, but we've got some more audio, Courtney — this one, we'll see where we go with it.

[01:02:00] Hey, let's listen first — cold plunges are good for health, that's the trend that led to a multi-million-dollar industry, and it started when there was a collaboration between the podcast host Andrew Huberman and a researcher, I believe her name is Susanna Søberg. She had a study published in a medical journal where she claimed that cold plunges activate all these metabolic pathways that charge your metabolism and lead to

[01:02:33] better health and weight loss. Andrew Huberman did nine hours of podcasting, had her on his show — next thing you know, he's recording Instagram posts from a cold plunge, and every other influencer is telling you how great these cold plunges are, all tracing back to the study. This study had a sample size of fifteen people — the experimental group was eight, the control group was seven. The experimental group, on average, had about fifty percent less body fat than the control group. So it's a sample size of fifteen people and the controls are unmatched — that should already disqualify this from being taken seriously.

[01:03:03] However, the study shows, quote-unquote, statistically significant results from the cold plunge in this group. You want to know what the statistically significant result was? The people who cold-plunged over twenty-four hours burned about twenty-four more calories than the people who didn't. If I did one minute of jumping jacks I'd probably burn twenty-four calories, and that started the entire cold-plunge — so this was from — tell me what I've just listened to. This was from the Growth Equation podcast.

[01:03:33] So these guys are all about expertise, performance, but science-based performance, and what they're saying is, don't believe everything you see on the internet. They're saying the whole cold-plunge trend that's happened recently, more through influencers — we're not talking about the Wim Hof stuff and all that, we're talking about, you know, Bondi, the ice bars, that kind of thing. They're saying this trend — they've pinpointed where the trend started and why it started, and then saying that

[01:04:05] the actual basis of that particular information was flawed. So to break it down, they're saying Andrew Huberman is the influencer in this moment — he's taken some data from one researcher, and because of his level of influence, that data has then been sent out and taken as gospel. The data itself isn't as compelling — if all the people who've gone out and got into cold

[01:04:35] plunging off the back of what Huberman said had just read the data, there's no way they would have bought into it like they have. So they're looking at a specific data point and what they're taking from it. So when I talk about Wim Hof and I talk about other things, because I know this is a really divisive subject — people get so wound up about ice baths. I'd actually go as far as saying, if there's one thing that, for health, has been trending over the last

[01:05:06] five years or whatever, that people are on either side of, it's ice baths — would you agree? It's funny how people can become — it's like supporting sporting teams, I'm team ice bath, like it's an it's a non-negotiable, it's a must-hit for me. But why? But the reason I grabbed this, they say, wasn't

[01:05:36] specifically — let's not get too hung up on the ice bath specifically, it's just that whole idea of not questioning why. What is it? Look, I'd guess there are a lot of people who do it because they like the way they feel after it, and I've no doubt there are a lot of people — and I think if you pulled some people up on it and really put their back against the wall while they

[01:06:08] were doing this, it's easy to default to, well, I like the way it makes me feel. I don't think there are as many people doing the level of exercise that justifies cold-plunge-type recovery methods. And you, as an Olympian, tried it and gave it up — but that's subjective, as well. That was for you, at the time — but we had the data at that point to say it doesn't do anything. Well, the thing is, and this is

[01:06:39] probably a good — I think it's worth noting that over time, whether it's nutrition, whether it's ice baths, whether it's physiology and all that, we evolve, and the literature and the studies all evolve, and what we thought five years ago is a different protocol, a different thing that we do, to today. And that will change again — there's a lot of,

[01:07:09] let's just say, it changes, it changes, and it's so hard to know what to throw your full weight behind, in the sense of, this thing's really going to work for me and make a difference, and I'm going to go all in on it — because you can't go all in on everything. No, of course not. But also, to what you just said — there is that, I'm going to put my full weight behind, it changes, which just means you're learning, and if it changes and you change

[01:07:42] your practice, then good. But you can, I think you probably can avoid some of those pitfalls with just asking a few more questions, or figuring out a bit more information — ask one more question than you think you need to. Yeah, I think so. You know what, Courtney — it's kind of like, I told someone this in the office today who asked what shoes she should get. I said, do you know what the best shoes for you to get would be — start running in the ones that feel great after you've tried on six pairs. I said — because she literally —

[01:08:13] we've got a — we can trademark this — she said she played netball, and I said, oh, okay, what shoes do you play netball in? And she goes, netball shoes. I'm like, yeah, but what brand are they? She said ASICS, and I said, well, why don't you run in a pair of ASICS then? She said, oh, because I don't like them. I'm like, great, don't run in them — go and try and find other pairs of shoes, find out which ones you like. And it was just an easy conversation to say, the best pair of shoes for you are the ones that feel great after you've tried on a bunch. I do refuse to, you know, she

[01:08:44] said, oh but no, but which ones would you recommend? I'm like, the ones that work for me are not the ones that will work for you — go out and find the shoes, and if cold-plunging works for you, great. Just because someone told you it works for them doesn't mean it's going to work for you. Yeah, talking about that just made me think about shoes, right, and I'll talk about this a bit more, but one of the ladies, Cat from Gold Coast Run Co, sent us some information about what to do with equipment

[01:09:15] or shoes, and what we can do with them instead of throwing them out. I'm going to bring this up in the next few weeks. But one of the reasons she actually first got in touch, or had a chat, or sent me a message, was — you remember that guide I had on runners, what each brand had for runners — she was taken aback because she runs in Brooks, and Brooks weren't on the list. And I wrote back and said, don't worry, I run in Salomon — they don't want to see you, don't worry. But —

[01:09:46] Brooks — I think Brooks is an interesting shoe company at the moment, because talking about this thing with the ice baths and influencers, Brooks are the influencers' shoe. Yeah, because I kind of find — I don't know if it's just what I see, but the crew where Brooks invest, at least here in Australia, invest some of their money — it's nearly like they've given up on trying to win the performance audience, and they've just gone hard into the everyday runner and influencer audience.

[01:10:20] And I wonder — I'd love to see stats on that, on how it actually translates. So, like, if you're talking about runners running slowly in the beginning, are they the ones out there picking up Brooks? Is it a strategy that actually works? Have to look — I think I've had a pair of the Glycerin back in the day. Yeah, I think it was when they were rolling with more of — it had a plate, and I didn't love it, but this was, I'm talking, at least it probably was

[01:10:50] when I first got into running, probably eight years ago that I tried them, I didn't love them, and then I ended up in the ASICS Novablast type of shoe quickly afterwards, and I was pretty devoted to that for a while, up until you infiltrated my wardrobe with a bunch of other shoes. But Brooks, look, I haven't run in them for ages so I couldn't comment, but — Brooks were the one, back — like when I was younger, Brooks had the gel, didn't they, they had the green — was that the Glycerin, was it a green gel? That's their trademark thing, you had the green gel. But you're right, when

[01:11:21] you were young, it was pretty — I've got the gel — exactly, it was like the Reebok Pumps. We've got some questions, Courtney, we love when people throw in these questions. I'm gonna start with this one from Sam — Sam Lloyd says, hey legends, loves the pod, loved the last pod, he's liked them all but loved the last one in particular, but he wanted to put some questions up for you. For someone who is wanting to be competitive in the top five to ten runners in ultra, what are some of the tips for sponsorship besides social media? This is interesting, so ultras can get expensive with

[01:11:52] gear and entries, and any help from brands can majorly help. Second one — he also wanted to ask, do you count a 5K PB if it's downhill on a trail? Yes, count it. Okay, let's get to that big one — so Sam's obviously a good runner if he's looking to be competitive in the top five to ten runners in the ultra field. Sponsorship — how does he go about it, tips for sponsorship besides social media? This is interesting, because we talk so much about social media these

[01:12:24] days. I'm going to say the most important thing to brands at the moment is community — there's two ways you can get exposure. One is you can be yourself on social media, and that shows what you're doing, the brands you're using, and whatever information you're giving to a whole big audience. But if you choose not to go down that path, the other way is to have your own community that's real.

[01:12:55] And when I say real, in real life, that's a value to companies. So if you had your own run group, or you're coaching a group — that's similar to a run club, right, we're seeing a lot of the brands attracted by run clubs. It's not like we're talking thousands of members here, but let's say fifty members of a run club that you can influence, or fifty members of a training squad that you can influence — they're fifty real people who can purchase that shoe, and the brand knows it.

[01:13:26] Yeah, so it's a hard one — when you say tips for sponsorship, I mean social media and content is where it's at these days, there's no shying away from that. It's like, how do you get value for your local community? And when I say community — if you're living more regionally, Bendigo's a bad example because there's a lot of runners there, but let's just say Mandurah, over in WA, right — if you're the

[01:13:56] king of Mandurah runners, you might have a real pull in Mandurah to be able to make purchase decisions for a lot of runners, and that's going to have value to a brand. Yeah, to join in there, Sam — because, prior to the world of radio, I worked in marketing, and this is the idea of sponsorship, there's a budget. Most companies will have a budget for sponsorship, but this idea of it being a benevolent sponsorship, it's naive to suggest that

[01:14:26] companies are going to throw you money — even, we talked a bit earlier about Andy Buchanan, the marathoner, not making The Project when he broke the Australian record, but this bloke who broke the world record running in Crocs did get the interview. It's about the ability to make noise. Now, Sam — if you're anti-social-media, don't think about it as having to make the most noise, you just have to be targeted and

[01:14:56] specific, and value — more and more it is about niche. For a while there, a lot of brands went away from the big-audience influencers, because someone might have 900,000 followers but they aren't actually influencing any of them, versus someone who might have 5,000 followers, but those 5,000

[01:15:26] followers are dedicated and religious in their following and consumption of the content, and essentially, if they say buy this, they will buy this — that's what matters more. So if you've only got 500 followers and you don't think that's enough to present as a following, develop that 500 into a community that will really be influenced by what you put out there. Agreed — it doesn't have to be tens of thousands for it to be worthy of a sponsorship. Correct, and in the end I think value is the word you'll

[01:16:00] be judged by — what value you give. And I'll give you one last tip — value isn't going to be following the herd and just being another one of the same. That's with social media too — often what you'll see is someone succeeds and then there's a whole bunch of imitations. If you're providing exactly the same product as, you know, the other ten people, and then

[01:16:31] there's one doing something that's unique, I can tell you where I'm going to go every day of the week. So Sam, don't go and peroxide your hair and cut a mullet into it, mate — it's been done. Jodi Duffy has also sent a question in — hey boys, love the pod, smashed all the eps in the last few days, quick question for Courtney: my partner has been running on and off for years and struggles to get her kilometres up, as her heart rate is always at 185 or above no matter what speed she's running. We've been implementing intervals into her training and it's working, but very slowly — is there anything else you could recommend to bring that heart rate down?

[01:17:01] It's a good question, it's a great question — it's kind of stumped me a little bit. First thing, and I say this not from a position of authority: make sure that heart rate is being measured by a chest strap, not off your wrist. That's coming from me, as somebody who, according to my Garmin watch, at one point during the Noosa Tri run, apparently had a heart rate of 210. I didn't — the watch isn't an accurate representation of heart rate. If you want to truly measure it, you need to go and get a chest strap.

[01:17:31] That's really good advice, that's the first thing — because 185, regardless of age, is really high. So that's a great call, Liam, I reckon that would be the first thing to check. The second thing — how can you bring that heart rate down? Actually go slower, slow down. If that heart rate's too hard and it's continually — without having a mistake in the heart-rate watch —

[01:18:03] it sounds like it's just redlining the whole time and going too hard the whole time. The only way to bring that heart rate down is to go easier, and then build from a more aerobic base if that heart rate's too hard. And without knowing anything else, I'd also say go and speak to your health professional — if 185 is really high and that's the consistent level you're running at, yeah. So if you've spoken to your health professional who says your heart's fine, and you've got the right equipment to measure it accurately, then

[01:18:36] what you're saying is, slow down. But even as we said earlier — I forgot the name of who it was — but we're talking about the paces you run, and the nasal, we were joking about nasal breathing and all that. But even hearing that, how slow someone might have to progress from, even a fifteen-minute kilometre, and build off that, versus someone who starts off and can run a seven-minute kilometre and then builds from there. So everyone's going to be — not all sets of lungs and hearts are created equal. I've got a guy in that running group, Mitch Scott.

[01:19:09] Yeah, Mitch — he's a lifeguard back down at Bondi in Sydney, took up running late, and he's already running 2:40 marathons. He's just good at it, he's got a natural disposition to it and he's good at it. And it seems — I look at him and go, there's a part of me that goes, that's so unfair, but it doesn't have to be fair. We're not all created equal, we're all built different, and as a result some of us are

[01:19:39] going to be able to do stuff with less training, some of us won't even be able to do that with all the training. Correct — but the point is finding the running, and I guess, going back to what old mate Jodi asked there — find the running your partner's enjoying, make sure the heart rate gets sorted, and then find the level of running she enjoys. Yep. Anyway, that's us, we're done — how long were we going today? Well, I reckon we're about 1:15. 1:15, it's always a good time, good time.

[01:20:09] I know, I always forget — Courtney always wants me to do this earlier on, but I always forget. But like, subscribe and share, comment, the community's building, we're having a really good time, and seriously the numbers are great — the things are going well for In The Beginning pod. It's going well, it's going well. But yeah, comment, and that will help us. Now, next week, special episode coming up, because you're going to be doing it from the land of the long white cloud — no, is that New Zealand? What's Japan — the Rising Sun, that one, I knew it had something to do with that, the land

[01:20:39] of the Rising Sun. And on that note, we'll see how much running I'll get done.