GC Marathon Weekend, $100 Carbon Shoes & Run Club Capture The Flag | EP 93

[00:00] In the beginning, episode 93. Courtney, we're getting very close to the hundredth episode." "We are — have you got any plans?" "No, we should plan something." "Let's not talk about anything before we actually do it — we've got a bad record of promises and under-delivering." "Yeah, OK, we don't need to go into it — we don't need to read the rap sheet." "Alright, well, I'll promise not to over-promise — no, wait, I can't even promise that. There's not a lot of filter between my brain and my"

[00:30] mouth." "I know how radio works — think it, say it." "That's exactly it — think it, say it. I'll give you the opportunity: think of something, say it quick. Happy Gold Coast Marathon weekend, everybody!" "Yes — so you'll be listening to this if — so this will be the weekend of the 10K, the half,"

[01:01] the marathon — you've got the half, the 10 and the five. You've got the Southern Cross University 10K event, and the China Airlines Half Marathon." "Sure — it's China Airlines. What did I tell you about that, this is an in-joke from last year — we were at the opening of the ASICS Gold Coast Marathon." "Yeah, China Airlines, that's what I said — remember, Tommy Tate got it"

[01:31] wrong — wrong airline." "No, it's definitely the China Airlines Half Marathon, which Andy Buchanan will be looking to defend his title in." "Yep, that's Saturday. I'm so excited — I'll hopefully be welcoming Liesel Jones, my radio co-host, across the line in the 5K. I've got a heap of friends and other people I've met doing the 10 and the Andy Buchanan half. It was almost exactly twelve months ago that I met Andy on the coast at Broadbeach — and then three or four days later I was calling him across the"

[02:01] line as the winner of the China Airlines Half, breaking the all-comers record." "Breaking the all-comers record — I'm really looking forward to it, because Brett Robinson's running too, so it'll be a red-hot field. And I saw Andy's locked in for Sydney for the full marathon too, which is exciting. Then of course tomorrow — the Courtney Atkinson race." "I don't think it's about me, Liam — well, it's the ASICS Gold Coast Marathon, but it's also your debut race."

[02:32] Courtney, do you know — talking about the half and Andy — I looked at the elite start list for the marathon, and there's very few Australians. I think there's only one Aussie in the men's top twenty." "I'll have a look — I noticed that too. A few more on the women's side, I found interesting that our friend of the pod isn't on the elite start list."

[03:04] "She just doesn't have a qualifying marathon time, I think — I'm just saying, because some of the other elite entrants have slower PBs than what she's targeting." "But I understand the elite seeding process." "OK, alright — how are you feeling, Courtney? I know you're trying to downplay it with all these other people, mate, but none of those other people are sitting here on this podcast right now. This is it. Everything going well this week in the lead-up?"

[03:36] "Everything's going well. To pull back the curtain on your house a little — on the way through the kitchen you pointed out your little poppers." "Yeah, I've been getting the kids' orange juice poppers, the 250ml ones, for the weekend, so I can fill them with sports drink." "You've got it all planned, sorted." "I've got it all sorted — I still need to work out what to buy, probably a singlet." "You still haven't figured out which singlet you're running in?" "I don't run in singlets."

[04:06] "I'm pretty much T-shirt only." "Why wouldn't you run in a T-shirt — you're going to sweat in it anyway." "It's just a race thing, gotta get in race mode, Liam." "Alright, we'll be at the Expo on Thursday — are you going to grab a singlet then, some merch?" "No — I'll go grab something off the sale rack, or maybe there's one in the garage somewhere. That's about the only thing I've got left to sort." "Everything else is sorted, nutrition, all locked in?" "Very locked in — because I know"

[04:39] we were talking about this last weekend when I was running — the taper's an interesting one, because it can really mess with your head. You start second-guessing everything — how much should I run, should I go hard, should I go easy. I think this week's actually been really good for me, because I don't have much stress on it as a race — I'm not trying to win the fifteen grand that's on offer for the winner."

[05:10] "I'm relatively relaxed and happy to just cruise around." "Brilliant, can't complain." "One thing I have changed — my updated plan is I'm probably going to run a bit more conservatively than I've been talking about the last few weeks. I actually took a step back and thought about what Benita said on the"

[05:40] show — that time, you know, to enjoy it and get through it. Probably not quite as conservative as she meant, but I don't think that's bad advice — I actually think it's the exact right advice. If I go out, have a great day, enjoy it, and can still run on — I've just been mulling over the heart rate data and a few of the sessions I've done, and even just the feeling from the weekend. I've done a bit of thinking since I ran on the weekend."

[06:12] "So my last long run — wasn't super long — was with Tim Rigby on the weekend, about four Ks at 3:36 pace, and my heart rate was fine, but the feeling wasn't quite right. I don't want to chance going out and running a marathon at that pace and having it all collapse — I'm just going to go conservative." "OK, that's your call. So a conservative"

[06:42] approach for everybody out there — if you're going for 3:36... two thirty is my prediction, or is it going to stretch out to around 2:40?" "Yeah." "OK — for everybody either running today or there tomorrow, keep an eye out for Iron Man Courtney, expected somewhere around the 2:40 mark. If you see him on course, give him a big shout-out." "I'll be in camouflage, you won't see me." "No, I'll find him — it's a game of Where's Wally for the In The Beginning podcast, find him on course." "No, I'll be in"

[07:12] black, head to toe." "The forecast's looking pretty good for running actually — the weekend ahead looks nice." "Yeah, I keep checking — I literally look at the boating apps for weather, so I'm watching wind more than anything else. Saturday looks amazing, but Sunday's got sun and"

[07:45] wind picking up." "People will be well into it by then. Sunday's a possible shower too — what's the wind on Sunday? By 10am you've got around nineteen kilometres an hour southerlies." "We'll just be finished by then." "True, true — and then before that, one am it's about ten kilometres an hour southerly, then 10 and"

[08:16] 11am — but they've all got big asterisks next to them, meaning I'm not totally sure. The conditions will be what the conditions will be." "I'll make it easy for you, Liam — the middle line's your gust, the darker the blue, the better." "Saturday into Sunday, see that?" "Courtney, the conditions will be what the conditions will be — hence why I said don't stress on times. We're looking forward to a fantastic Gold Coast Marathon weekend. Soak it all up — if you find"

[08:48] yourself this weekend wondering whether you should get involved with something, just do it, embrace it. It's going to be a fantastic weekend — well done to the EMQ team for getting this incredible event off the ground again, running one of the best race weekends in Australia, no question." "Looking forward to it. We'll break down how your marathon went next week — can't wait for that. Let's talk some other running stuff." "Yep — Paris Fashion Week." "Running stuff." "Running stuff, yeah —"

[09:19] Paris Fashion Week has been overtaken by run activations. Some people are suggesting this is proof of where running has got to as a community — I mean, they were there last year too, but this is the second year it's really taken off. Homerun Paris, made in the street, is one event going on. Satisfy's got a wake-up run"

[09:50] going on as part of it. Optimistic Runners' pop-up has a social run with Collision — a Berlin brand — running through the loop. There's the Tech Arrive party happening on Rue de Marseille. Courtney, run clubs and run activations — can you remember a time when it's been more cool to be associated with running?" "No." "So what's next — where does it go? What frontier's left for the"

[10:21] run activation, the run club, the social run?" "I honestly don't know, Liam. The thing I see booming as well — run clubs have been going for a while, and they're getting into pretty much every space. You can compare it to where street fashion's been — street fashion's very similar to where street basketball's been. And that's where running fashion is now — it's street fashion."

[10:52] "So anywhere you'd have seen pop-ups of street fashion or basketball fashion, that's where you'll see running now — cafes, DJs, the running DJs. In fact, let's jump into that right now — I've got one big theory about where we'll see a run club activating in 2027. Bold prediction coming, but quickly —"

[11:23] what's worse for a run club to do, run with a speaker or run with a flag? Courtney Atkinson, I'm giving you the power to ban one of those from run clubs — speakers or flags?" "I'm going to ban the flag." "Really — you think that's the bigger indictment?" "Yeah, I think that's peak." "I agree — I think the next step is literally"

[11:55] having, you know the advertising trucks?" "Yeah." "Having an advertising truck or buggy run behind the run club. Good on everyone for advertising, but yeah, that's—" "I agree, the speaker adds something, as much as I don't love it." "No, it adds atmosphere — if you're part of a run club, or looking for one with that atmosphere, that gym environment"

[12:27] where the music's pumping and it's all let's go, let's go — that gym-taking-to-the-street vibe — the speaker's great for that. I don't get what the flag's doing for you, other than telling everyone who you are." "Well, to each their own — I'm not running in a group with a flag." "No, that's you." "Would you carry the flag?" "We don't carry — didn't you want a flag as a pacer or something?"

[12:57] "Yeah, but that's different." "No, no — I just don't want to be — that's me, I don't want to be noticed." "You bet you don't want to be noticed." "I'm amazed you're still doing this podcast, opposite end of the spectrum — I just want to go about my business, not like that. But with the flag, I think there's a reason — a non-"

[13:29] running reason people are involved in these groups too, that sense of belonging, community. Go back through any part of life — you march to war, you take your flag." "That's a good point." "You race at the Olympics, you put the flag up — it's the symbol of belonging, of patriotism. If you actually think about"

[14:00] it, and respecting the group — everyone's involved in their run groups for different reasons. I'm saying it's peak." "No, because I don't want to be running with a flag, I get my belonging in groups differently, but I understand it and actually appreciate it — it's the peak way of showing you belong, that you're part of this. So I've actually, as we've talked this out — I don't want"

[14:31] to say more, but I've changed my tune a bit on it." "You've changed my thinking too — it's the peak patriotism of belonging to something. And to be clear, we're not comparing run groups to war, but the same thing religion does for people. People"

[15:01] go to church because they want to be part of a community, share beliefs, share morals and all the rest of it. In run clubs, geography obviously plays a big part, but it's your people — you've found your people. That's why finding your run crew is such an important thing. And it's about showing your colours. Actually, keep an eye on this — one of my favourite images ever from the Red Bull Race The Sun event is Gold Coast Run Club, the amateur club, driving along"

[15:33] with a flag out the window next to their runners, as a show of support." "OK, alright, I like this — I'm actually coming round on the flag. This is why we do this. Can you imagine — flip it — Gold Coast Marathon this weekend, imagine your cheer squad, whatever club you're from, Brisbane Road Runners, Cairns Taipans, whatever, and your supporters all come"

[16:06] with flags, running alongside showing your club's colours in support?" "I'm falling — we don't have enough flags anymore. When you asked me that question, speaker versus" "flags, I was ready to go all in on the flags — I'm turned around, my head's spinning now. Even better, one step further — horseback." "You've been hanging out on the internet a bit too much, I think. OK, run club flags."

[16:37] "Here's another thing you can do with them — wherever you start your run from, that flag signifies to latecomers that the run's already started. It's the green light — flag's up, run's begun, they've already taken off. So it acts as a — before the run starts, it's like planting your flag, this is where we start. Boom, flag on the ground, outside a coffee shop or whatever."

[17:07] "And this is our territory. And if you're the local coffee shop where all the runners go, you hang the little flag off the top to say this coffee shop's owned by this run club, this is their domain. Also — I'm losing the plot a bit now, haven't figured out exactly what it is yet — Capture the Flag could be an event, a run club event."

[17:37] "I like this — a race out to flags, you've got to decide which flag you want to capture." "What's it called — like kids' capture the flag?" "It's capture the flag, basically that, but you're — five minutes ago I was ready to burn all the flags,"

[18:07] and now I want to build an event around run clubs and their flags. You know that event we talked about last week in Central Park in New York, where they could choose their route?" "Imagine — that's going stupid — it becomes a team event where flags are planted around the course. Let's keep it local — say Salt Mill and Hedges, right — if their flags"

[18:39] start the race from, say, Tallebudgera Creek, and it's who can get the most flags and bring them back — you're running groups and you've got to capture the flag and bring it home. We'll work on the format. But in the right circumstance, flags can be good — I just don't know about the everyday run, carrying a massive flag along on your regular run, I think that's overkill."

[19:10] "And if the flag's a sign of morale, it should be out the front, not in the" middle — the front's leading." "Exactly right. Alright, back to Paris Fashion Week, which is where we started this." "Good, good — I like where run clubs could graduate to. Can I make a prediction?" "Give us your prediction — mark it down, Tuesday the 30th of June 2027, we will see a Magic Round run group."

[19:43] "Don't your mates at Triple M sport do that already?" "I don't believe so — I don't believe they've had a run catch-up at Magic Round." "That'll be there next year — Justin Horrow, maybe he's a starter, the Triple M boys might do it. Someone in 2027 will host a" "Didn't think you were going there — a Magic Round run club." "There's no reason why not." "Wasn't where I would've gone — because run"

[20:14] clubs already do run activations — that's what we're talking about, not necessarily run clubs specifically. Run activations already exist everywhere, at Paris Fashion Week, music festivals, any athletic-adjacent event. The next area for them to dip into is non-running sport." "Magic Round — makes perfect sense, Brisbane's a great city to run around." "Anyway, we'll see how that plays out." "I promise I won't just start it to be right. Quick shout-out too, from run clubs to elites —"

[20:48] Holly Ranson, friend of the pod — fifteenth place at Western States!" "I asked how she was going about halfway through the race, and she was around sixteenth, seventeenth — she held solid." "Great. Big shout-out to Holly and her husband Nick, who finally got to crew someone half-decent at running — more than half-decent. Well done to Nick and the rest of Holly's support team, and Phil Gore, who was her pacer —"

[21:18] the backyard ultra champion. Did you see his record got toppled today?" "I'm not prepared to acknowledge it." "You think it's—" "I just love Phil, I didn't want him to lose." "Well, there's a bit of chat around it — not my area of expertise — but it happened in Russia, I believe, that event." "I didn't know about that." "Yeah, both the women's and men's records got toppled in"

[21:50] the same event, so of course there's speculation about it. Holly, fifteenth at Western States — and interestingly, Jenny Hoffman, who won the women's race, ran her first hundred-miler and broke the course record,"

[22:22] in fifteen twenty-eight. In ultra running, and longer distances generally, running's boomed at the marathon level and now you'll see all the peripheral events keep growing, get better, as more saturation happens at the foundation events — the Olympic events. Athletes on the fringe of that will keep building out, and once they've finished at that level, in those first few years out of marathon they move into ultra,"

[22:54] and the talent there just keeps increasing. We talked about the race in America where the female winner beat the field outright — Jenny was only an hour and a half behind the men's winner, I think she was seventh across the line overall. That's at that ultra distance where we talked a bit the other week about the physiology and biology — maybe that's where the gap between male and female performance starts to narrow."

[23:26] "The big podcasts covering these events specifically — what I found interesting were the comments over the weekend, like, why Western States, what's the fascination?" "Just because it's old, isn't it?" "That was my answer too — it's the oldest one. But it's also the one the US puts the most emphasis on, and whatever the US, with their population and"

[23:56] brands and everything else, puts its emphasis on becomes what a lot of the world looks at — except maybe some Europeans, you could argue Europe's the heartland of trail running. But when something big happens in the States, that's where the noise and focus goes. From the really long to the really fast — another quick performance shout-out: Cam Myers set a new Australian 1500m record, winning the Paris Diamond League event."

[24:26] "What did he run?" "3:28 — beat Great Britain's Jake Wightman by just under two seconds, and broke Ollie Hoare's record, which had stood since 2023. 3:28, for a twenty-year-old who's literally just turned twenty. It's so exciting, with the Commonwealth Games coming up and the LA Olympics two years off — Australia's not just got a prospect,"

[25:00] he's an elite-level runner already. And we've got a prospect coming through on the women's side too, doing something similar over the same distance. I was looking at the progression of the records, because we talk a lot about marathon-distance records and how quickly ground's being made — obviously the technology on the track hasn't had"

[25:30] the same breadth of innovation you can do on the road, there are limits to stack heights and so on. But there is technology in the spikes too. Herb Elliott ran 3:36 in 1958 — so it's been an eight-second improvement"

[26:02] over seventy years. Where do we — I'll go back to probably the best one: Simon Doyle, 1991 —" "Thirty-five years ago." "3:32. What did Herb run — 3:36? So then Simon Doyle in the early nineties ran"

[26:32] 3:32 in '91. It then took until 2010, Ryan Gregson — this is just the Australian record I'm looking at the progression of, 1500m. 3:31 for Ryan Gregson, and Stewart McSweyn a bit later — it's been toppled a few times since 2010 to 2:26, but it really hasn't"

[27:02] moved much. Here's another bit of context — Cam Myers's time is the twelfth fastest ever run" over 1500m, twelfth fastest ever. And it's two seconds off the world record, set by the legendary Hicham El Guerrouj back in '98 — that record's twenty-seven, twenty-eight years old, set in Rome. That's crazy, hey — truly incredible."

[27:32] "But for Cam Myers, there've been some recent quick times — the next most recent fast time I think is by Jakob Ingebrigtsen or one of the other top runners in 2025, but he's trending right up into almost the top ten performances of all time over 1500m — that's exciting, heading into the next Olympics."

[28:02] "I wonder if he'll run the Commonwealth Games." "I'd assume so, wouldn't he — has he ever been to a Commonwealth Games before?" "No, I haven't looked into it, but that's the question, right — do you run the Commonwealth Games, or do you stay focused on Diamond League-level events? If you were part of Cam Myers's team, he's just run that time at the Paris Diamond League,"

[28:33] and the Commonwealth Games are on the way in a month — I'd say he runs it. I'm just reading a statement — less than a month out from the Glasgow Commonwealth Games, beginning July 23rd — the intention is for him to go, I'd say. I'm not in that space anymore, but have you seen much about the Commonwealth Games this time?" "No, we hear about the"

[29:03] Olympics because of Brisbane, that's always coming up. But here's something — the 1500m isn't on the Commonwealth Games programme, the mile is. I'm looking at the Australian Commonwealth Games athletics team sheet, and it's got the 800, the 1500, the... actually it's got a 1600m event instead, and the 5000, selected in the 1600m"

[29:35] for the women: Jess Hull, Abbey Caldwell, Claudia Hollingsworth — and for the men, Cam Myers, Adam Spencer and Ollie Hoare. Did you know that? Is that new?" "I don't know — that seems—" "Anyway, someone would." "No, I'm just reading up on it — it's been replaced by the mile, is that just for this one? I feel like"

[30:10] it's just for Glasgow, a one-off change for the streamlined Games, tying into Commonwealth" history — the 1950 mile makes a comeback, replacing the 1500. What do you think, honestly — it's an extra hundred metres." "I don't — it's a weird decision, I'm actually gobsmacked in a way." "We're learning this live — I'm just trying to read a bit about why. It's obviously to create a — I'm just reading why the"

[30:41] decision was made — to honour the Commonwealth's rich history, more racing. They're trying to make — there's a real problem with the Commonwealth Games, right, they're doing everything to try and keep it relevant. I think they should just cancel it, this should be the last one, farewell in style, back where it all started in the UK. Interest is waning, no cities want to host it anymore, I'd just move on. A much smaller, reduced-cost Games after the original Victorian host Games was cancelled, and Glasgow stepped"

[31:11] in." "Thanks for that, Dan — well, that's why I was asking. Honest question — are they running the—" "Can I just, while we're there — Dan Andrews, the Victorian premier—" "We're not going into politics." "No, no, I just think it was an idealistic but naive decision to try and host a regional Games — the Commonwealth Games, that they ended up cancelling." "So what do you think about Brisbane then? This is what I wanted to get to — I saw a really great opinion piece, and I'm going to"

[31:43] forget her name, apologies — she was a former Australian rower, an Olympic rower, based in Perth I think, involved in sports administration now. I'll try to find her name to give her proper credit, but it was a great point about the Brisbane 2032 Games — Brisbane campaigned for these Games to be a South East Queensland Olympics, and now they're"

[32:16] being used as a political tool to develop the regions. The rowing going to Rockhampton, to me, is a mistake — it's being used as a political football for the state government to carry as a way of looking after the regions, and they're going to stuff it up. I'm not one to say sport and politics shouldn't mix — you can't separate them, it's inherent, they collide."

[32:47] "But don't rob the Olympic vibe from South East Queensland to satisfy a tiny town a hundred Ks away — if you're going to pour that much money into building a white-water rafting course out in Redlands, and if you're going to separate it for cost-effectiveness using existing facilities, put that event in Penrith"

[33:18] instead, which already has world-class facilities. Send the rest of the world down there to race at a venue we already have. I don't know anything about the plans out in Redlands, but let's hope they build it in a way that once it's done, the Redlands community gets a great facility for recreation, because that's a"

[33:49] lot of money to spend on a very niche sport." "Anyway, let's move on from that — before we started recording, Liam and I were talking politics, and I said, OK, now we can record." "Now we can start talking about that — do you want to talk about your shoes, or do you want me to give you a sporting-ranking question?"

[34:20] "Give me the sporting ranking, and I'll pick up the shoes after. Here we go — FIFA World Cup's on right now, I'm loving it, and penalties — as much as everyone says it's not fair — I think it's great, it's great sporting entertainment. Does it mean the best football team doesn't always win at the end of the day? Maybe, but those are the rules. I want you to rank, Courtney — I'll give you"

[34:50] five sporting scenarios and you put them one through five, by how nervous you'd feel doing each. Number one: a penalty — and you've got to imagine it's the World Cup final, the peak level, the pointy end." "Right, I get it." "Penalty. Then: a basketball free throw to win the NBA championship. You're serving match point at"

[35:20] Wimbledon. An NRL or AFL kick after the siren to win the game. And a two-metre putt to win the Masters. Which one is Courtney Atkinson most nervous about, one through five — or start with the easiest if you'd rather?" "Unfortunately — and maybe that's the point of the exercise — my mind goes straight, for each"

[35:51] one, to the sport and the level of it, rather than the actual physical act — because it's not about the nerves of the output itself, it's about whether you're capable of executing that skill. To me, all those skills carry the same level of"

[36:22] pressure — the prize brings the same pressure." "OK, which one do you think you'd feel most, though?" "I think the most pressure is the soccer World Cup penalty." "I disagree — no, wait, that's what I think too, the penalty shoot-out at the World Cup is a hundred percent the most nervous of all." "OK, then I'd put the AFL kick last." "NRL or AFL kick to win the game, last?" "A hundred percent last — it's the"

[36:52] grand final though, and any grand final's going to be nervous, but as soon as you listed all of them my mind went straight to — World Cup, NBA,"

[37:23] or NBL, whatever — golf, tennis, I forgot the fourth one. Wimbledon, golf, then tennis, and for me tennis and golf are probably interchangeable." "OK, that's interesting — what was it that swayed you the other way?" "For me,"

[37:58] I'd actually have the NRL kick last too, the least pressure. I'd put the penalty at four. Tennis at four too, sorry — penalty at three, the free throw at two, and the putt hands-down at one, and let me tell you why —" because with the kick, the penalty, the tennis serve, you get to release quite a bit of power, all that adrenaline pulsing through your body — you might miss, but at least you're releasing it with intent, whether you're kicking a conversion or hitting a ball. I get where you're coming from — with the"

[38:29] basketball free throw you still get a bit of release, but it's much more finesse-based. And the putt — I've stood over putts playing with my mates and felt the nerves, and there's no release in a putt at all, it's all touch. It's as close as an athlete ever gets to doing surgery, a putt or a chip shot. For me it's number one, by a mile."

[39:01] "I think this is a really interesting difference in how people think, because psychologically, when you listed yours, you went to a lot of the individual scenarios as being the hardest — you win the goal for yourself, the tennis point for yourself. But for me, the biggest pressure moments are when the weight on your shoulders is"

[39:34] external. A good sports psychologist tries to channel that back into it being your own pressure, like in golf or tennis. But I just don't think you can get around the fact that at the World Cup, it's not just about you, or even your team — it's about the millions of people back home watching. That's the pressure. You asked which is the most nervous — it's the pressure of everything on top of it. Here's another interesting point — what have you done your whole life? Individual sports."

[40:06] "I grew up playing team sport." "So that feeling — you don't feel pressure the same way as an individual athlete. Not that I ever got to your level, but the pressure of kicking goals in footy that really mattered — it's the swapping of the shoes, maybe that's it. But honestly, I think if you miss that goal, you miss out on your million dollars, but it's your"

[40:36] caddy who's probably pretty pissed off too — I guess the thing about the penalty is you might hit the perfect one, but there's still someone who can stop it, the goalkeeper has a say in the result. Whereas golf and everything else, it's entirely on you — but at that level everyone's skilled, you'd expect anyone at that level to be capable in any of these sports. To me, everything that goes wrong in sport comes down to external pressure."

[41:07] "Put it this way — for anyone who missed the Germany-Paraguay penalty shoot-out earlier in the week, whoever took Germany's first penalty, I think he choked — that was as saveable a penalty as you'll see at the World Cup, hit it straight into the perfect save zone for the Paraguayan keeper. That's my point about soccer penalties." "And I don't think he's too worried, he's worth eighteen million times"

[41:39] Courtney and me combined. Let's stay with shoes though — where are we going with this?" "We'll see how this goes — it's going to go a bit left field. Peter, who's not my father-in-law but my brother-in-law's father, sent me an article from Outside Online titled 'Why Chinese Running Shoes Are Having Their Moment.'"

[42:11] "It got me interested, because — let me find it, I want to reference something else too — it's about the rise of Chinese running shoe brands. I've got no strong take either way yet, but there are some talking points I want to run by you, Liam. We've seen this movie before, so let me take you back —"

[42:43] everything that's dominant eventually gets disrupted in some shape or form, and with running shoes it's happened in different ways over time. Nike came in with the waffle sole, disrupted everyone in the seventies. ASICS came along — what did they go for?" "Stability." "Everyone knows ASICS for stability. Then who came along and changed everything with cushioning, first to market?" "Hoka." "Yep,"

[43:13] Hoka came along." "Come on, I feel like I'm sitting a test I'm not prepared for — you do this to me all the time." "That's right, I do. So Hoka came along, and everyone said, max cushion, that's stupid, no good — what's everyone doing now?" "Max cushion." "Then Nike came back — what did Nike change up next?" "Carbon plates?" "Yeah, they brought out the Vaporfly, and the whole market shifted again, everyone had to follow. So every time there's a"

[43:44] dominant force in running, and I'm sure there've been others too, right when you think it can't innovate again, it innovates again. So now we've come to the Chinese shoes." "Yeah, that's good." "I think this is where the Chinese companies are going to disrupt — on value. They're going to disrupt the market on dollars, the same way it happened in the"

[44:16] car market. They're going to come in and disrupt the natural cycle of innovation, I think, but they're backing it up by being innovative too — trying new things. Right now, unless you're seriously into shoes, you don't know the brands, but they're doing the infused foams, the racing shoes, all of it, but at a different price"

[44:47] point. I'm really interested to see where this goes. First question — and anyone listening can answer this in your head — you've got two shoes, basically carbon copies of each other, one's Nike, Adidas, ASICS, Hoka, whoever, and the other's, for argument's sake, I'll call it Leaning. One costs $100, the"

[45:19] big brand costs $200 — which are you buying right now?" "ASICS." "Yeah, me too. So the question becomes, when does that change, or does it?" "I love this, by the way — if you could get"

[45:50] ninety-five percent of the performance of the best carbon shoes in the Western world for the price, would you buy the cheaper pair to save half the money?" "I would now — well, I said that, but to be clear, I'm not, at this stage." "We touched on this the other week — there's a bit of brand psychology at play, and you love your marketing, so anyone listening who enjoys"

[46:20] these random conversations of ours will get this. I mentioned it the other week — Steph Curry signing with Leaning was significant, because what these Chinese companies lack right now is"

[46:50] credibility in Western markets. And what Nike and Adidas have shown with their FIFA World Cup ads is the power of these brands — this legacy of athlete representation, this incredible storytelling ability. Chinese brands right now can't tell that compelling a story to Western markets, and as we've seen with content creators and influencers, narrative's part of it — if you're telling a compelling story on your page, that's what brings people back. I think the Steph Curry deal will become really significant for America first, and once these"

[47:21] big Chinese brands get a few more compelling athletes and creators into their world, the credibility will start to lift, and suddenly buying that shoe at that price point won't feel like such a — it'll be seen as a cool thing to do." "You think it'll be cool?" "I —"

[47:51] I've never been cool, so I don't know if I'm the one to say. Coolness is bestowed on you by other people — my brother was always the cool one in our family, with music, clothes, everything, and I'd just follow what he or my mates did. I had no real sense of individuality growing up with any of that — I just went with whatever everyone else liked. I'm only starting to find my own thing at forty — I'll say I was into this running stuff before other people were. But it'll take one of those"

[48:26] really influential people going, yeah, I'm running this shoe, and telling everyone else to run it too — and suddenly it's, oh my god, have you seen, he's running the Leanings, and then it's a domino effect, a tidal wave." "It'll be interesting to see, if that happens, how long it takes. But value's the battleground, I like that — you just can't keep increasing prices forever, at some point there's a tipping"

[48:57] point where people stop being brand loyal — not for everyone, but for some." "Told you I'm not cool — I did a commerce degree at uni, and part of that was economics, and there's a theory called diminishing returns, where at some point the return on your investment starts to shrink. People in real estate or building will understand this — you put a certain amount into a renovation to get a certain return when you sell, but at some"

[49:27] point, putting in another ten thousand dollars only gets you back one more dollar. With shoe tech, at some point the consumer won't appreciate the extra tech relative to what they're paying for it — and maybe we've already reached that, because to me, three hundred dollars is about as far"

[49:58] as I'll go for a pair of shoes, and they're already more than that." "I don't think the winner in all this is the runners, honestly — because we get the choice, the competition. The problem then becomes choice — too much choice actually makes it harder, which is why I like brands that give a bit more structure to how you choose. Nike's done it really well lately, and Adidas"

[50:30] similarly — using one core structure and building different shoes around it, so you understand, OK, this is my trainer, this is my neutral shoe, this one's got more cushioning, this one's for stability — just call it what it is. Keep it simple, and I can understand it and buy what I need. But if you make the shoe"

[51:04] too hybrid, doing too many things at once, I get lost — just give me a clear purpose for what that shoe needs to do, and if it does that when I try it, done." "Let's stay here a second, you've sparked something — I saw a post the other day from ASICS that really clearly and concisely laid out their range and what each shoe's for. Here's the Sky"

[51:36] and the Edge, your racing shoes, then — I might get this wrong — the Blast is your five-to-ten-K runner, the Superblast's your mid-to-long-run shoe, and the Kayano's your stability shoe. It clearly identified the range available to you, what your shoe rack could look like. What I'd love to see from brands, in a way that's not tacky, is some kind of number system or naming convention that also gives you that"

[52:07] information straight away. Take ASICS right now — I know the guys were wearing the Metaspeeds on the weekend, but there are different Metaspeeds — Sky, Paris, I don't know the names of all"

[52:39] the models — but as they were rattling them off, I'm thinking, is that the one for the 10K, or the marathon, or is it just the softer one? It'd be so much easier if it was literally called the Sky 10K." "We've got pretty standardised distances"

[53:12] already — even if it was just clearer messaging, shorter distances versus marathon, I don't want to have to go and open a chat window just to work out what shoe fits me." "I found something — let me play a bit of this. It's a woman named Laura Green, whose Instagram bio says, I run a lot and make fun of running a lot — this is a reel"

[53:42] titled 'The Annual Trail Shoe Naming Convention.' In it she's putting on different hats — one for Nike, then Adidas, Salomon and so on. It opens: 'Welcome, everyone, to the annual trail shoe naming convention, let's make sure we're"

[54:13] not reusing old ideas — although if I like any of your ideas, as the moderator, I'm allowed to poach your employees. Do the new guys always—' 'This is Mountain Cocoa, first is Hoka 11.' 'It's 11? We removed that years ago, I don't care.' 'OK, well we have the staples — Speedgoat, never to be confused with the Speedcross. We also have Genesis, the"

[54:43] origin of something — cute. We have the Mafate, an eroded volcanic caldera on Reunion Island only accessible by foot or by helicopter. We also have Pulsar, a highly magnetised, rapidly rotating neutron star that—' She's cycling through Salomon, Hoka, and the rest, cracking jokes about how absurd trail shoe names have gotten." "I recognise some of those, I'm running them, but—" "Yeah, that's your point — branding's one thing, but clarity of message is another."

[55:13] "Courtney, imagine ASICS or Nike releasing the Pegasus 5K." "Can you imagine walking into a store, seeing that on the wall, going, sweet, done — I'm a parkrunner, that's what I want to run in." "And for comparing shoes across brands it becomes simple too — I want to try that one, that one, that one — those three are the same type of shoe across three brands. But if you're a disruptive brand, would you actually want to make it that easy for people to"

[55:48] compare you to the big guys?" "You've given me one other idea — I know we've hung around on shoe chat for a while, but people like it. You mentioned Chinese brands competing on price as the next disruptive phase — you used cars as an example." "Do you think — everyone knows, or maybe not — that Lexus is a luxury brand, but"

[56:18] they're built by Toyota, just a different badge? Do you think one of these brands — Nike, ASICS, Adidas — might release a budget sub-brand? If this budget tier becomes the competitive battleground?" "You're going the other way — I mean, they already do it at the premium end, like Salomon doing something like a slab performance line, or Nike's trail"

[56:50] ACG shoes, which are a step up. But would one of them release, say, under a different label — Nike suddenly releasing 'Sam's Runners' as a budget line — to compete with Leaning without devaluing the Nike name?" "Yes, as a"

[57:22] strategy, but you'd have to keep it separate — effectively you become a parent company. There are parent companies out there who own multiple brands for exactly that reason, so each brand plays a distinct role in the market, and owning several lets you play in multiple markets at once." "They kind of do already, in a way — every shoe brand has a base-tier model." "True, but what we're talking about is competing on value at the same performance level, which is a whole different story, because you're really selling the brand. Alright, we've got time for a couple of listener messages — want to hit a few?" "Yeah, let's finish up with a couple. What have we got?" "Matt Thomas —"

[57:53] 'Hey team, just listened to your discussion on the"

[58:26] 35K wall — and that's exactly what happened to me this weekend, running the Wellington Marathon — got a cramp, tried the cramp-fix trick, and the cramp didn't go.' We talked about this, right?" "I don't think I talked about it with you specifically, but the whole notion of cramp on a run — the idea that if you cramp late in a marathon or any endurance event, you can just fix it — like in footy, they throw down the pickle juice and suddenly the cramp's gone. The reality is, I'm not saying it wouldn't work, and it's worth trying, but a lot of the time your muscles just aren't conditioned to hold that pace over that distance —"

[58:57] there's no real way around it except slowing down earlier and conditioning yourself better and more specifically for the event beforehand." "Well, this happened to Matt out there — so yeah, pretty much. He's also had a whole heap of trouble with flights lately, eating badly, everything you shouldn't be doing before a marathon, but still ran 3:20:24. Congratulations, mate, that's a good one. Jolly Gardener wrote in — 'Boys, been loving the pod in the lead-up to Sunday, I'm running my first ever marathon.' Good on you, Joel."

[59:27] "Me too, very much looking forward to driving up with the family from the Hunter." "Beautiful — hope it's a safe drive up, Joel. He mentioned ASICS should release a Gold Coast Marathon shoe for the event, and they should, but Hoka beat them to it inadvertently — 'maybe I'll be running in these bad boys on Sunday, looking forward to seeing you at the finish, all the best in the run, Courtney.' So he's got the Clifton 10s, and reckons Hoka's released a Gold Coast Marathon edition. My question is, is it a Gold Coast Marathon edition, or does it just happen to be"

[59:59] the right colourway?" "Let me check the Hoka website and have a look at the Clifton 9 — it's probably just the colourway." "Let's see what it's actually listed as — I searched Gold Coast Marathon Shoe Hoka and nothing's coming up. I don't think it's an official Gold Coast"

[01:00:30] Marathon shoe, Joel — I think you've just found a well-timed, appropriately coloured shoe for the race. I don't think they'd be allowed to release an unofficial Gold Coast Marathon shoe given" ASICS is the official Gold Coast Marathon shoe sponsor. Fair point. Quick follow-up too — Naomi, my new security guard friend from the SeaBus, is never going to have"

[01:01:02] a problem again — she listened back to the shout-out she got last episode and had a laugh that she'd been nervous to come say hi to me, when I was nervous there was a security person watching me. Courtney, she wishes you all the best with your marathon on Sunday, and also wishes my wife Alana all the best with hers. She has a saying she uses in her events role that carries over" into her races — 'flexible and fluid, we adjust to conditions and circumstances as they pop up, it might not be perfect or pretty, but we get the desired outcome one way or another.' I love that — works whether you're a security events manager at a stadium, or a runner. Stay flexible, stay fluid. How's Alana shaping up?" "Ready — I think this'll be her last marathon, one and"

[01:01:32] done. She's prepped, I think she's going to have a great time — she'll probably run somewhere between four hours and 4:30. She doesn't have a short attention span exactly, but she gets bored on anything much over about eighteen to twenty Ks — she's always been a sprinter growing up, she loves going fast, it's a speed thing, and grinding out 42 kilometres isn't really her natural game. I'm really"

[01:02:02] excited for her to experience it — she'll smash it, she's trained well, she's fresh, she'll roll into it in really great shape. But I don't think the ultra-distance bug's going to bite" her. How does she approach nutrition on course — is she just picking it up as she goes?" "No, no, she's got a plan — she's been testing and tasting, tried some of my leftover gels, tried Precision, tried all the different ones I've had around, and she's landed on a plan."

[01:02:33] "So she'll just carry what she needs, like a proper marathoner." "Courtney, are you carrying nutrition, or do you get special elite-athlete allowances?" "Maybe." "There it is. Best of luck to everybody running this week — good luck, have a great time. If you see Courtney on course hiding in his all-black, point him out." "Yep, feel free to"

[01:03:03] heckle. And to everyone running on Sunday, if you're listening to this on Saturday, come find me at the finish line — I want hugs, I want all the excitement and emotion and celebration at the finish line." "You're going to have a great weekend, but a busy one too — you've got the footy to call." "Yeah, if you're listening to this Saturday afternoon, I'm probably just settling into the commentary box for the Gold Coast Suns versus Collingwood — and my god, do the Suns need to win this"

[01:03:34] game." "We won't talk AFL this week." "No, but I've got a theory I'm going to present to the footy world next week." "OK, fine — alright, enjoy, and Courtney, good luck." "Thanks, Liam, I can't wait. Are we doing a special breakdown episode on Wednesday?" "We can, next Wednesday, since we missed this one — that was on me, not checking things first, wasn't that a gift, I made a full episode anyway, but I'll allow it. We'll probably have a chat. Subscribe, tell your friends, enjoy the races — we'll see you next week." "See you next week."