KUNANYI MOUNTAIN RUN SHOW PRESENTED BY SALOMON

[00:00] In the beginning, on location: Courtney, we are currently sitting in a very nice Airbnb in Hobart. We're here because Salomon presented the kunanyi Mountain Run, part of the Golden Trail Series. I've just run it, you're injured, and we are joined in this special edition of In The Beginning by the Omni Channel Brand Manager of Salomon Australia, Pete Coopers.

[00:30] Pete, how are you? I'm well, I'm well, it's brilliant. You've both come down and we've had the time of our lives out there. Thanks for chasing me up that mountain. That's a mouthful, isn't it, that intro. Let's just call him the boss instead of an Omni Channel member. So Courtney, lay it out, because you've actually done nothing today. I've been on the camera, I've been doing the hardest work of all, it was freezing up on top of the mountain. But no, you had the kunanyi Trail, obviously the Salomon Golden Trail Series here.

[01:00] Everyone was out racing the 25K. What was it, about 1600 metres of elevation? Yeah, about 1600. Geez, I think the website undersold that one, it was long. I'm interested to hear you fellas tell me all about the run, but you've got everything from the best elites in the country trying to win this race, and then they have a series, and the winner of that series goes off to a world final. Where's the world final this year? Hasn't been announced yet, so it's still a big surprise, but the best Aussie gets to go and race the best in the world.

[01:32] Some of the others, like the main Golden Trail races that trail runners will know, there's Zegama, there's the World Series, there's China, and Kobe Trail in Japan will be there as well. So it's a big, global series — well, it is the best, or the premier short-course series in the world. Correct, ranging from 20 right through to 30 Ks. And in Australia, no better course, I don't think. Let's talk about it, because today there was the 25K Mountain Run, and you had the Alpine

[02:04] Marathon, which was 42 and a bit, and then you had the Ultra, which was 66, and that's actually just finishing while we start talking here from the warmth of this beautiful home in Hobart. But the back story, very quickly, before we get into celebrating the course — let's rip the band-aid off. There was a bet, mate. There was a bet: Liam, Pete, winner takes all in the 25K Mountain Run. And who won? I got absolutely dusted.

[02:35] Let's put it into context too, though. Last night we were talking, and Pete's PB in the marathon is 3:33:30 — no, 3:21. Right, I had you as favourite on the TAB. What do you know your actual finishing time was? No, I think we checked — I was three... I was 3:20-something. Yeah, you smashed me, you beat me home by 16 minutes. I was doing spot checks out on the course, so I saw you leave, I saw you probably three-quarters of the way up Mount Wellington, and at that stage I reckon it was

[03:07] probably a seven-minute difference — Pete was up. Yeah, only enough that I thought it would blow out after that. I saw you at the top of the mountain, right on the peak, and I think you'd actually clawed back a little bit of time, Liam. And then while we're waiting at the finish line, well, that story told itself. Yeah, I blew up on the downhill, in a very big way. We'll talk about our race experiences as we go, but this course — Pete, have you run it before?

[03:37] Two years ago, yeah, so you knew what to expect. But this course, Courtney, I told you in the car as we drove off, the 25K race is perfect. It's perfect because I'm sitting here now capable of actually having this conversation with you both and not being asleep or on the floor. So the distance is nice, but you get so tested on the way up and then on the way down —

[04:07] the scenery is unbelievable. It is just a perfect race, I loved the 25K here, I thought it was so good. This is what I told you last night — it was always going to be walking through some serious incline, and then you've got the opportunity to just absolutely nail it on the way down. So it offers everything. Serious incline is an understatement, weren't you saying? Halfway, incline is an understatement. When I first saw you — you'd probably climbed about 600 to 700 metres of elevation when you saw me, and you didn't even recognise

[04:38] me. So that told me a little bit of what was going on. Actually, no, I saw Pete first. When you saw me, what were you thinking at that stage — where is he, is he ahead? No, but when you saw me, what were you thinking? You had really no expectation of what you were coming into — this is your first kind of proper mountain trail race, right? Because you've got Blue Mountains, you've got UTA and these types of things, you go up and down, up and down, and you get a lot of the same. This is a mountain race. And it's probably, I'd go as far

[05:09] as saying I'm just trying to think of what other mountain in Australia you could do this style of mountain race, where you're literally 1000 metres up on a proper trail. Not many. Straight back down that easy climb — well, the elevation's not minor, is it. You leave Jindabyne and by the time you get up... I mean, yes, Thredbo's got a really steep incline, but even that's only seven kilometres. This was sharp. When I saw you, you're about nine, maybe 10 Ks in, and I felt like I'd

[05:43] done nothing but walk. It was gruelling. It was amazing, because by the time I got to you, you'd done some fire trail, you'd done some single trail, and you'd done that rock-hopping section — Pete, you said when you get over those rocks, make sure you look right. The grind of the hills is relentless, and then suddenly I kind of forgot I was climbing, because you're just grinding away, climbing up rocks, walking up stairs, walking up fire trail, and then

[06:15] all of a sudden it was at that rock section, you look right and you're like, oh my God, Hobart is all the way down there — I've done some serious climbing, 600 metres of elevation or so. So when I saw you, I've got to be honest, I now have one instruction I'd like to implement in trail running. Pete, I'd like you to put this into any future event settlement rules: if you are descending from the

[06:46] highest point, unless you pass a runner within a two-minute window of the summit, you are not allowed to tell them they're almost there. That's the worst thing you can do — you are not allowed to tell people who are still climbing that they're almost there. Because I reckon I heard that four Ks out from the summit, with at least half an hour of climbing still ahead of me, and I had no hope of chasing that person down, because I think they were the leaders, but I was furious. It wasn't patronising at all

[07:17] when I gave you a hug. Oh, I found that really nice actually, Pete — on the way back we had a crossover moment, Pete came up and gave me a hug. Was it meant to be patronising? There was some big talk before the race, some big chat. Do you want to tell this story, the bet that was laid down, which I didn't know about? You can tell the bet, it's your bet — it gets embarrassing. So I made the statement pre-race that if I beat Pete, the big boss of Salomon, I would get a full

[07:51] time Salomon athlete contract. That agreement wasn't actually made, I was having a bit of fun with it, but then the MC of the race — did you hear this bit? Yeah, because the race actually started and they announced that on the start line, and Pete and I are standing next to each other, and the whole field of the 25K race turned around and looked at us. I pointed somewhere else, I was looking for Pete, I pointed somewhere else. Liam, I'll tell you, I wouldn't have let this rest.

[08:23] I was pretty confident I was going to win. No? Oh good, 'cause I know how much running Pete's been doing. What have you done recently? Backyard recently, I did a UTA 50 as well, and that's been good. But yeah — Gold Coast last year? Yep, I managed to run in Milan on the way through to a conference too. You've been running a lot, and you're looking trim compared to when he first came over — it's actually a pretty good conversation, because you weren't really a runner

[08:54] before you started coming and working at Salomon. Cast it right back to under-12s football, I'll show you a photo of someone that was just there for the sausages. So no, it's been really, really good. You came from the bike industry, on your bikes, and this is what I was saying to Liam about Salomon as a brand — or maybe it's a global thing — everyone who joins the company, wherever they've come from, seems to get involved in whatever they participate in, whether that's snow, trail, or road. Everyone runs. It seems like a company where

[09:24] you're fully passionate and invested in what you do day to day. Yeah, absolutely, and the staff we bring in all have to have that element of the outdoors, getting out there and unleashing the best version of themselves. That helps from a day-to-day perspective too — passion, understanding the product, and understanding what the communities are using that product for, which makes it super helpful. So yeah, there are trail runners — back to your point, we've got skiers, we've got a strong winter crew. Does anyone last, if they're like, hey,

[09:54] we're going for a run at lunch, and then they're still sitting there eating their lunch? Yeah, then they get moved on. No, no, why did you start running? When you got to Salomon, is that when you started? For me, I was into footy, into tennis and that sort of stuff, and then, back to Courtney's point, I got into the cycling industry. So straight away you're head to toe in lycra, learning how to clip out and not embarrass yourself in front of your friends. And then running came along with

[10:26] — you saw it today, the community you're surrounded by and interact with — essentially running for banana bread, really, on the weekend. But no, it's been a really, really good, enjoyable cardio experience. You saw it today too, you don't need to run every hill, it starts to get really painful. My experience was you don't need to run any hill — you can appreciate the elites when they're out there hauling up those hills, but take that moment to look

[10:57] around, as I stretched with you throughout the whole weekend, and look over Hobart and pinch yourself and go, hang on, this is actually really cool, and I'm surrounded by like-minded individuals. Our community runs, our shop runs, you've seen run clubs just absolutely take off — I know you guys have covered that in detail — but that's the booming trend we're seeing, and we're really lucky to be a part of it. Just quickly, we're going to talk about the boom in a moment — Pete just talked

[11:27] about watching the elites run up the hill, and watching them run down the hill is impressive — that's the thing that's amazing to see, because they are flying, taking these steep steps and inclines with loose rock at pace, which is just terrifying. I couldn't believe it. That's the section where Pete gave me the patronising hug just before. Watching the leaders run past was amazing. But this is what I say — we've talked about trail shoes before, and the main thing is you can get away with

[12:00] running in road shoes in the majority of trail runs out there, but when it's a course like today, that's when specific trail shoes make such a difference. When I started with Salomon, I think I'd run the 22K at UTA and I'd gone and bought a pair, and then the guys from Salomon saw me — what are you doing, do you want to run? And I said, well, the reason I'm in Salomon at that point is purely because it's the best grip. Now the trail industry has

[12:32] choices across the range, not just Salomon — there's so much more competition since then. But that one thing still, if I go out today and think what am I going to choose for this course, the first thing I think about in trail is grip, and that's what I've always been able to trust these guys for — whether I'm in New Zealand running on rock, in Australia, or up in North Queensland in the jungle, I can trust the grip. It was interesting seeing people out today and seeing the different shoes they were wearing. Pete, can we talk about the

[13:04] race a bit more — just going back to Salomon in a moment, and I love that four years into being with the brand, you're this weapon of a runner who I lost to today. But the race today, going back to what was your favourite part, because you've run it before — what was the part you most enjoyed about that 25K today? I think it's the start line, everyone getting that nervous energy — no matter your level of performance, you've got that level of energy and

[13:36] cowbells, getting a whole lot of, you're buzzing off the crowd, which is brilliant. Then you set off and you're thinking, it's just me, my pack, I've got nutrition, I've got enough water, nothing can go wrong from that standpoint. And then you set off and you're starting to think, okay, how am I going to chunk this up now? You get to aid stations, but I think the highlight is when you're getting up to the point where we climb those stairs at the end — just before that, you start to fly through again. You've been going really slow, you've been walking up, your legs

[14:06] are sore, and then you're starting to flush these out, and you get some magnificent views. We got to the top today and you couldn't see too much from the pinnacle, a lot of grey — but yeah, I think the bit before those stairs is one of the best. At the pinnacle I'd obviously got the aid station in mind because it was blowing a gale, everything was 3.5 degrees, blowing a gale up there. Is that what it got down to? Yeah, when you guys left the start, that's what temperature it was up the top. Was that one of the better aid stations you've ever seen —

[14:38] it's picturesque when it's clear, but jeez, it seemed like a good place to go and hide for a while. I noticed you were in there for a while — you were in there a little bit longer than me. I was expecting after I saw you in there for a couple of minutes or whatever, I thought, jeez, Liam mightn't come out for half an hour. It's pretty efficient, I was pretty in and out — Tim Tams, grab the snakes, grab the Tim Tams. Yeah, that was, from the outside, one of the better aid stations I've seen at a trail race. I wanted to go into the — if you've ever been to Mount Wellington before, it's

[15:09] basically that lookout hut with that incredible architecture, and you loop through it in a figure-eight style. It was amazing, and that's the other thing you should always shout out after a trail race — the volunteers, the crew who go up there and man the aid station, man the road crossings, drag their kids out to do it with them, put the cowbells out for the kids. That's awesome. That's one thing trail will always have over road racing —

[15:41] it's the volunteer environment. I don't want to make it road versus trail, but I think trail has the energy, the positive vibes out on the course from the non-competitors — I think that's number one. Totally agree. So you start to talk to people about what an aid station is and what it looks like — you get up there and you're spent, and you're fumbling around, bringing out your soft flask, and there's some Coca-Cola, and

[16:12] then you're looking over to the next thing and there's hand-cut sandwiches there for you, and you're like, oh well, might as well stay here and have lunch. Back to your point though, Courtney, I think the best aid station I've ever come across was at that race in Italy. When I got up there, there wasn't a lick of English, they saw a flag on my bib and said, oh, brilliant, from New Zealand — I said yeah, sure, and then we looked at salami, there was bread, there was cheese, and I'm sitting there going, hang on, I reckon I'll just rest up here.

[16:43] What was the race in Italy? It was around Lake Orta — a friend of mine said, look, you're going to be in Annecy the next week, let's stop and do this 40K race. Can we interrupt quickly — what's Annecy? Annecy is the home of Salomon, right? Yeah. Let's get back to that in a moment — can you tell me about Italy? So this race, my friend had made these shirts for us — the high school guys were all over there and we were called the Pastore Boys Run Club, we had T-shirts, we were the Pastore

[17:14] Boys Run Club, and when we got to the finish line wearing these Pastore Boys Run Club t-shirts, everyone thought we were from a particular run club in Italy and they were asking us in complete Italian — we had no idea what was going on. But at the end of the race they served you — don't you speak any Italian? Nothing. Coopers isn't Italian, man — it'd be Greek. Greek, yeah, completely different, like the water's the same, but completely different

[17:44] language. I'm not going to have a job after today, am I? Leaving? No. So I love that Pete loves pizza — is that what we're going on about, Italy? I love that you've gone the part where I'm just imagining, like if a bunch of Italians came down here to run something like this and made themselves, you know, the Snags in Bread Run Club or something, or the Bunnings one — can we talk a bit about

[18:14] Annecy? Because I learnt literally on the flight over from Courtney that that's the home of Salomon — I'd never heard of the town, and Courtney went on to tell me he actually spent six months, or a year, in a little town not far away. What are the origins of Salomon? Yep, absolutely, let's do that, because essentially this brand that we all interact with, no matter which category, comes from winter sport. You've seen those little laces you got in your shoes, those little quick laces we spoke about, and the little

[18:46] pocket they come with — quickly, if you're out there with a pair of Salomon shoes, they don't tell you this, there's a little garage for your laces. Here's a fun story — I ran UTA 50 twice in Salomon shoes with the lace flapping around, trying not to trip over at 50 Ks. The first time I ever went for a trail run with Courtney, he goes, why don't you tuck the laces into the little garage? I'm like, what are you talking about — is it officially called

[19:16] the lace garage, or is that an Australian thing? There's a lace carport too if you like. But basically, is there a little spot in the tongue to stick the laces? Yeah, that's the quick laces — quick laces is a Salomon thing, absolutely, from day dot. There have been some imposters, but not really — no, that's it, Salomon. And it's, I mean, when I talked about grip earlier, but it's also the speed laces, especially in trail — that's a winter sport throwback, that's where it's come from.

[19:46] So boots, bindings, and back to your point about the winter sport heritage, fast forward that and we start to see products in what we call soft goods and footwear across different categories. But Annecy still has a factory, still does research and design — it's the Annecy Design Centre, which I've been fortunate enough to visit a few times now, and seeing the testing, seeing the evolution — our S-Lab, our Salomon lab, where the athletes go in and get particular moulds done

[20:17] and different fittings, and testing product — you'll see our athletes out there in red shoes, prototyping test gear years in advance. It's a very inspirational building and town — they're working on skis, and then in the afternoons they go and test those skis in the mountains, and you can literally move the curtains a bit and point at the mountain they're going to test on. So cool, so much live feedback, which is brilliant when you're in manufacturing and

[20:47] credible in the space. So yeah, staying with the history for a moment — that's where it's born, that's still the home of it — how did it transfer to Australia, when did it become a brand locally here? We've seen our soft goods and footwear really take off in the past 10 years, and we spoke at length, it's always a conversation that comes up, and we're seeing

[21:17] it on the streets, in different style executions. These shoes that we have in sports style are all throwbacks, and the technology and the actual construction is exactly the same as it was when you or I would have been running a hill in Tassie 10 years ago. So the credibility, and back to Courtney's point about grip, our Contagrip hasn't changed — it's evolved from a performance standpoint always, but when you see it in

[21:50] sports style executions, it's exactly the same as it was. That's what's wild to me — the actual grip, when you see someone walking around in a pair of, say, Speedcross, that's aggressive grip, we'd only run in Speedcross for snow and thick mud. In these Tasmanian conditions it's a shoe that suits both. Was that the first sports style shoe that really kicked off? Yeah, absolutely — Speedcross executions of that style, but also the XT-6 is

[22:23] something you see all over the place, that's the main one, it's had 10-plus years of anniversary. To break it down, because you guys are using words like sports style and XT-6 — we're talking about fashion shoes, that's what we're talking about, right, now we're talking sneakers, we're talking sneakers, that's why Courtney and I have talked about this on the podcast before, this idea of fashion sneakers and Salomon seems to be the shoe. It's like, I don't know,

[22:56] Nike obviously has these other lines, other brands have kind of the shoes that they target and create as not a performance or athletic shoe, but a street style shoe. But it's literally Salomon — something about the brand, something about the style. Did you guys create that notion, or did you react to people picking it up? Good question. So we've had fashion houses wanting to collaborate, and this has all come over the past 10 or

[23:30] so years, in terms of fashion houses going to Annecy to design their version or their iteration. Just to go back to the fashion piece — we have tiers, sports style or sneakers, which caters to the technical fashion crowd, then you've got technical subculture, and then technical athletic, which is how the sneakers are all classified. That means a certain product will end up in a certain door, in a certain part of our website, and the other product ends up in other areas. So what does that do? It protects.

[24:02] It protects — you're wearing something cool, you think it's cool, you're proud of it, and you start to see it everywhere. Essentially what we're doing is making sure this product ends up in the community in an authentic way. We've got artists, we've got chefs — not chefs cooking with our shoes, but the real creative types out there — photographers, musicians, all wanting to align to what we do in that creative space. How do you protect that? Because the moment something is authentically

[24:35] cool, the moment you try to commercialise it, it almost stops being cool — so how do you protect it, because you seem to have done it. Yeah, that's what we keep doing locally and globally, making sure the partnerships are right. That's where the partnerships we have with these fashion houses matter — at a point where we've got them all knocking at our door, which we're really, really grateful for, it's about the right

[25:05] collaborations at the right time, connecting with the right audience through different energy marketing, as we call it. You'll see us pop up at Paris Fashion Week, or at an underground club — that execution is very, very different. The focus we have as a collective brand is heightened just to protect that, so even the ambassadors and artists we work with are all hand-picked. Can you pinpoint, as the global organisation, what was the one thing that

[25:36] transferred it from sport to fashion? Is there a moment, or a person, or did it just happen so organically you don't even know? Having it in Paris Fashion Week way back when, having the first Boris Bidjan Saberi fashion house collaboration out of France — you know that one? Yeah, cross that — I honestly, when he said Boris, I thought he was going to say Boris Becker, that's where my mind went, tennis shoes. But I imagine he would have been

[26:06] cool to work with. Sorry, Boris Bidjan Saberi — okay, and then you're seeing this product on the runways in Paris, arguably the biggest Fashion Week out there, and all of a sudden the press are like, hang on, what's this thing with this really aggressive grip pattern? And it sparked interest from there, and there were so many different iterations and executions of what was traditionally trail product. Still from its French heritage, it trended out of France first, I think that's part of it,

[26:36] too — looking from the outside, the fact that it has a French origin, it's kind of inherently cool, sounds cool, but they do things with their own style, they don't care what you think about that. What's the wildest one in this sport — we'll get back to trail in a tick — but what's the wildest sports style or sneaker moment you've seen here in Australia where you've just gone, wow, I saw that on that person, or that celebrity, organically?

[27:06] So we knew we'd made it — we were going to present to a retailer's managers conference, this was two Super Bowls ago, so we were preparing — that's how most normal people measure things, based on Super Bowls, yeah. So we were rehearsing our different presentations as audio, and then all of a sudden it's like, hang on, Salomon have just had this massive moment with Rihanna wearing — that generation, an iteration of Speedcross with MM6 Maison Margiela.

[27:38] There you go, okay, keep going. And that execution was top secret — not even us, we had no idea, Salomon staff globally were kept really, really tight-lipped, because the partnership Salomon kicked off was all held in New York. A stylist was going, hey, we need this particular size, you may see this in the next 24 hours, and then all of a sudden — bang — Rihanna's wearing Salomon. So that was a planned thing? Yep.

[28:09] Okay, with a fashion stylist — sure, sure. I remember it because I was watching the Super Bowl and just screenshotted it and started throwing it around to people, going, oh God, this is a moment. Because as an athlete in trail, and I've had a reasonably long association now with Salomon, we were kind of always just the runners, right, and it went from one day where the runners — you know, it was a great outdoor technical brand — to suddenly, I've told this story to both

[28:40] of you — I'm at work at a place like Red Bull and all the 20-year-olds are coming to me wanting shoes, and I was like, oh, well, something's going on here. Something's happened, something's changed, and it's continued, it just hasn't stopped. How does the brand — we talk a lot on the podcast about branding of different shoes and the activations they have, and what's coming next for running, and influencers, right —

[29:11] how does Salomon approach that area, because in a market where the wrong influencer can ruin a shoe, or ruin a brand — not ruin, but certainly stain it to a degree — you said the partnerships are hand-picked, but how do you avoid an influencer who might have hundreds of thousands of followers but not be right for you, how do you avoid a connection

[29:41] being formed there — can you avoid it? Yeah, so we're slightly linked, obviously, to global plans and master plans from a brand standpoint — who do we want to be in five years, what do we look like in 10 years, what do we look like next week? Essentially our categories have their own plays — our sports style category, our winter sport category, our outdoor or hikers category, and of course road — we know our place in road, we know where we're

[30:11] coming from, as a new starter as a brand that has evolved the technology we're currently using in road, and there's some brilliant product out there. So how do we spark that, without just saying, well, it looks cool, so we'll target our sports style audience and get them to buy road? That's not how to authentically do it. So it's about partnering with the right level of community that can unpack that for us, and then we support them to do that. Now, a lot of the product

[30:42] we're making — let's take road as an example, we've got our super shoe, you guys have run in it, and we've also got different products for everyday, which could be a parkrun, your local shop run, or even a run club that you go to. So we're not just factoring in a range of 30-odd different pairs of road shoes, there's a culture we're trying to facilitate and fuel. You'll see a category from us this year — it was on the back end of last

[31:12] year, but a new category for us called gravel. Gravel is all about the journey — I love this, because it's about, hey, do you want to go and get banana bread, do you want to go and get a gelato, let's go and run 6Ks and we're going to that destination, having a great journey along the way. You don't need what we wore today in terms of packs, hydration and gels and things like that — you're just going for the sport of being able to set out, no matter where you are, and you've got product that takes you there for that exercise and that journey.

[31:44] And then we constantly see so many different executions — I keep talking marketing terms, sorry, executions doesn't sound brilliant, does it — you know what I mean, though. But we've got product out there in hikers, and multi-day travel is a massive space — you've got that suitcase and you want to be able to take that pair of shoes, it's going to do it all, provide support and that opportunity to go and explore different parts. So the outdoor category continues to

[32:15] be really strong for us, and trail, as Courtney's pointed out, he's obviously experienced it firsthand with the evolution and research and design going into these products — there isn't one shoe that'll do everything for you, and at the elite level they want fast, or supportive, or a bit of both. It's almost these constant little tweaks in design and product evolution that you guys have to unpack. That's the hardest thing

[32:45] sometimes, and this wouldn't be Salomon-specific, but there are just so many shoes now, and they're so particular to how you run, who you are, what you like — do you like soft, do you like foot feel? In the Salomon range I've got, I often go, what would I race in, and I've got too many choices — it's like focusing on which one it is at the time. I think the ones you both ran in today, we've talked about, yeah.

[33:15] So this S-Lab Genesis — for me that's such a traditional Salomon shoe, but also with the injection of what's new. It still holds that feel of what you know about trail, but brings in some of those new technologies without taking it too far — I think you can be overly innovative in some spaces and then you've got to rein it back in. I think there's been a really

[33:45] nice, consistent approach to how Salomon do it. So what I'm always looking forward to is putting on that new rubber, trying the next one, how's it going to feel — I've said to Liam a few times, I've often been able to tell the first time I try on a shoe, I know just from trying it on. I can no longer do that though, because the technology's come so far — some of these rubbers and some of the things going into Salomon shoes, and all shoes really, are starting to need you to run in them a few times before it actually

[34:15] beds in. Some of those shoes, like the S-Lab Genesis, are just like the one you're running in today, which is brilliant, a shoe you don't have to worry about — my feet have pulled up amazing, and that was the second time I've run in the Genesis, it's just a really easy shoe to run in out of the box. Good, good. I'm starting to use words now — you've indoctrinated me, I'm starting to use words like 'foot feel' and all that

[34:47] sort of stuff, and I think that's the lingo — if you sit in a proper... this is what I'd love to see more of in the shoe market, people talking about shoes and being able to sit down and skip the technical jargon, because everyone's got their marketing spiel about what rubber it is and what it is, but in the end you want to hear how you can describe it in real-world feel. So what's this shoe going to do for me? Responsive is a word you often hear thrown around in a whole range of things, but what is responsive?

[35:17] Am I actually going to feel it out there? It's actually quite a mid-soft feel, but it also gives you plenty of spring back — that's a real-world description you can give someone. That's something I know, working with you guys, I'd love to work on more — how do we actually explain what it feels like, you put it on, this is what you go and run, I'm not going to try and sell you on adding all these things together giving you 20% more of something. It's actually, this is in the

[35:47] real world, you're going to feel this. Brands are doing this in every campaign you see from multiple different brands — the psychology and consumer behaviour is all around that initial foot feel in the shop, putting it on, and oh, it's comfortable, oh, it feels quick. Remember when you were a kid, you'd get a new pair of shoes and race your siblings, or see how fast you could run up and down the corridor — oh, these shoes are amazing. So essentially where tests are super important, there's a massive focus on getting to store,

[36:17] trying this pair of shoes on, having the opportunity — brands are doing this left, right and centre, which is great for runners because you get an opportunity to get out there, engage with the outdoors, have a chat, get a coffee after, and then you've tested something and you're ready to make your purchase. So there's a massive focus around comfort and support — I feel supportive, it feels comfortable — those are the campaigns you'll see from multiple brands. Why do you reckon, as you represent a brand with a

[36:48] market-leading philosophy around keeping things cool, why is running cool? What's changed in the last two years — we're talking about Australia here, but you could broaden it out globally — what's changed in the last two years to make running cool? I think it's probably the heightened level of involvement and community that we want to feel. You look at a Monday through to Sunday, there's long runs, there's short

[37:19] runs, there's coffee runs — it's all built around what we want to feel as a consumer, and also as a community sharing similar experiences. You and I today, right from the get-go, and then halfway out, having a bit of a laugh and a joke around, sharing in that is exactly what trail running's about. But again, back to the community — how many people did you know on course? Of course you passed heaps of people, but

[37:49] not one of them you actually knew — yeah, I lost count. But in terms of the conversation, people telling you you're looking great, you're looking strong — they didn't have to do that. Yeah, they didn't have to do that. So you're getting that on trail, you're getting it on road, and I think there's a heightened level of importance — society needs that, I think it's changed. I think we care about that more than we did maybe in the past decade. I think we need to, as well, which is cool, because you're starting to see that and go, yeah, this is important — I am going to wake up super early and go to my community. It's the same way people buy sports memberships, rolling up depending on how you're

[38:21] performing. I haven't actually heard that comparison to football teams before, because Courtney and I have had lots of chats about why running is booming like it is, but that notion of people now viewing their run clubs akin to how they'd previously sign up to a football club — that's a really interesting comparison. The membership cost is lower, definitely, there's an immediate reward, you're guaranteed — there's no chance of a loss really, unlike a football team where you might come back from

[38:52] the game with a loss. Every time you go and be part of that club, you win, because no one ever regrets a run, really. Everyone's wearing a scarf that's the same colour as yours, or a beanie, whatever it is — this is good, let's keep doing these, like an identity. And you're right, because if you go to the footy it's a scarf, a beanie, a flag — you go to run club, the literal fact they're wearing runners on their feet. And the number one question you get at all the run clubs is, what's your next race, what are you training for, and we get to share in that,

[39:22] which is really cool, inherently aspirational. I did the Backyard, and my run club that I run with on a Wednesday — everyone there, the next time they saw me, was like, how did it go? Followed me on Strava, how did you get through that, what was the toughest part? And the first three Ks of today's run, I just flicked a message to my run group back in Sydney saying, hey, I'm about to start this — and for the first three Ks my phone was just pinging with messages coming back

[39:53] from everyone saying good luck, looks like good weather, what's the elevation, and so on. Do you think they're extra interested in the fact you're doing something so unique, quite an interesting, different race, a different experience? Courtney and I have talked about this a lot as well, Pete — this idea of what makes a race, trying to find that secret sauce for why certain races sell out and

[40:24] others don't. One of the things we've landed on is that idea of an experience — is this going to give me an experience that's not available to everybody, that I haven't had previously? So today was an experience I don't think — maybe one other member of my run group has done the race before. So the fact I was about to do something most of them haven't done, and to compare it to something like the Canberra Marathon, which a lot of them have done, that becomes less about the race, more about the time.

[40:56] Right, no one has asked me what time I did today — they're just saying good luck with the race, good luck with the run, enjoy that run. And absolute kudos to the family and support teams we all have linked with us — not from an athlete perspective, but I know there were families out there today who last night sat down with a sheet and said, okay, I need you to be here at this time, I need the blue bottle, I need you to be here at this time, I'm going to take a packet of chips off you, I'm going to need you — and so they're also now involved and invested in getting

[41:27] their person and their community over the line. Good trail runs, and this is what I've always liked from a running perspective, when you want to get away from just focusing on times — good trail runs are an adventure. That's what makes a good trail race, an adventure, so you walk away with things you'll remember from today that you wouldn't normally see or face on your normal run. It's a way to run in three-degree weather — that's true, as a Queenslander I'm loving sitting here rugged up in the

[41:59] jumper. But even the boulder field you'd have run across today — I can't think of anywhere unless you run around the headland at Burleigh Heads that you'd rock-hop like that, you'd never face that. I've never done that before, literally a mountain of small rock, and it was an amazing moment. You're right, and that's why I'm all in for both road and trail, but I always keep coming back to trail when it comes to experiences you can go and — if I think of some trail,

[42:29] that's why today I wanted to run today, and I've said to Pete for years, because I look at trail runs as, what's going to be the point of difference I haven't experienced before? Is it a proper mountain trail race like today, is it the most technical? There's another race down in Tassie called Triple Tops, I think it's Mount Roland — someone from Tasmania is going to correct me on that. The reason I'm interested in that one, I have no idea of the course, but I've been told that's the most technical run you're going

[43:00] to face, it's proper mountain running. So I've always had that one in mind, and there's some up in North Queensland, or country runs, or sand runs, but it's always got that little point of difference. And here at kunanyi, I think that's always made me go, why isn't it bigger, why isn't it a bigger run down here — I mean it is a big run, don't get me wrong, but I don't know if I want too many more people running around me today. Frankly, Courtney, I thought it was a great run, in a positive way — I'm like, what's stopping more people wanting to come and have

[43:32] that experience in trail versus, we're selling out a marathon tomorrow, every major marathon's selling out — how do we convert some more people over to come and try? You want to sit down with the brains trust at Salomon — yeah, we have a goal to convert the participants of the Gold Coast Marathon this year, as many as possible, to a trail event in the next 12 months. How would you do it, what would step one be? Yeah, this is exactly the sort of

[44:03] thinking and processes we're trying to put in, from a long-term play — we think it's excursions, getting people out of their normal routine. Even if you need to borrow a pack for this particular event, we've got that covered — taking out all the obstacles you may face. How am I going to climb that? Well, you've got food, you've got water, you've got a base level of fitness, it's going to be okay, and look who's around you. Creating that — it's not going to be every day, because you'll potentially have to travel to these locations.

[44:33] There's inclines you don't have in the cities, whereas you can walk out the door at home and run around Melbourne, Sydney, Gold Coast. So I think bringing that as an excursion — and back to Courtney's point — is an experience you can share with him. If it's taking a busload of people up into the Dandenongs or out into different parts, being able to share in that, with every step of the way thought out for you — I think that's the best way to introduce trail and this community to road runners.

[45:05] There was a little brain flicker there — there's another brand with a certain very notable runner, and he's a recreational runner. I don't know if you saw it, but he recently did a very big participation run in Sydney, and the surprise for the runners on the morning was, hey, if you've got

[45:35] the time, we're going to the airport, we're going to Kosciuszko today. Did you see this, do you know what I'm talking about? No, I have no idea. I think I'd seen something. Yeah, Nedd Brockman — right, didn't he basically organise a meet-up in Sydney to go for a run around Centennial Park, and the surprise was, who can come to Kosciuszko with me this morning, and literally they took a plane that morning, from the

[46:05] eastern suburbs of Sydney to the airport, put them on a plane, and went and ran up Kosciuszko. Now, I look at that and go, that's exactly what you're talking about, and the opportunity there — now that's an extreme version of it, but I can see Salomon doing some really cool stuff in that space, taking people on these excursions, it's about surprise and delight, and it's not just a gift with purchase, that's not what this is going to be. It's about going and seeing

[46:35] some really amazing places, learning something — if you can learn something about a particular part of the world, that's kind of cool too, because we're always thirsty for that knowledge and understanding of where we are. We had smoke ceremonies and welcome to country this morning, it's amazing, and the knowledge and history of Mount Wellington that you shared in — that's something you can take home, that adds to your memory bank, and it was a really special part of this morning, actually. I thought about it about halfway up as I was climbing, I thought about that smoke, and I

[47:05] could still kind of smell it in my nostrils a bit halfway up, and it was a really cool feeling. Staying with it, because we've seen other brands try to create this idea of a 'third space' — I don't know, you're a marketing guru, you'll be aware of it, but if this is the first time you're hearing it — people have their home, their place of work, and some of these brands are attempting to create a third space that people exist in. You've just talked about the idea of excursions as a way to bridge people from road to

[47:38] trail — is the third space something Salomon looks at? Yeah, it's a good point, because essentially, how do you bring so many diverse categories together — they're outdoor categories, but you've got to be super authentic, and I don't know, it's again a buzzword, but if you're talking to a winter sport audience, you need to talk to them with a winter sport language and tone. You can't fake it — the first time you rock up to a winter sport meeting and can actually swear with a customer, I was taken back —

[48:09] we can't say that, we can't — and it's like, they were over the moon, and you had to be there, and you continued partying on with them, which blew my mind. But then you're having high-performance conversations with running specialty doors and partners. So how do you create the third space, or would you — I mean it doesn't sound like your answer there is that it's necessarily something that works for the brand. Brands like Rapha nailed it early days with the Clubhouse, and then creating that zone. Two years ago, I think it was, court —

[48:40] remind me, we did the Salomon Clubhouse in Katoomba, that's right, and that was a moment where we had Q&As with athletes, yoga sessions in the morning, stretch sessions before you'd go out and compete, there was coffee, good food throughout the whole piece, and that was sitting there going, this adventure that they're on — and no matter the distance they're going to do, they could come and have a safe and also knowledgeable experience with us, and then walk away. There was no 'you need to buy this today, you need to do that.'

[49:10] That's fine, we want to establish long, ongoing, sustainable relationships with our communities. So being authentic in certain spheres is exactly the way to go about it, which makes our next progression in retail really hard as well, because we've got to make sure our stores speak to the audience the way they want to be spoken to — instead of, oh, they've just put up a shop here and they're going to try and flog product. It's about what you feel when you come into this store, being able to share, hey, I just ran this, or I'm going to go and

[49:40] ski this field, or hike this mountain, or I'm a photographer, videographer, whatever — I use this product and I think I'm cool. It's crazy to think — I know there's clothing and other goods, but the fact it's shoes, taking that out of it for a tick — the fact that it's just shoes, and you're talking about that broad range of categories, it's nearly like you've got shoes, but you're not really just trying to sell shoes anymore.

[50:10] It's like you've got all of these different categories, you've got to sell across one product or multiple products, but you're trying to think about it as, okay, I've got teenagers to sell to, I've got trail runners to sell to, I've got road, then gravel, then travel shoes, everything. That must be a big ask for a marketing team, especially with a range that broad, to go down that route. Yeah, so I think we're really, really lucky in Australia, and I think what we've learnt from

[50:42] a retail perspective, from retail partners that exist out there for us, is they've got their communities absolutely dialled. So how do we fuel that and plug into what they're doing? I think of some of our partners who are absolutely brilliant at connecting with that audience, authentically, whether it's in the music scene — we've seen that sneaker-generalist tier of consumer connecting with music, and we see fashion in these smaller, what we call Tier 0, Tier 1 advanced accounts, that have

[51:15] got product in there that talks directly to a fashion audience, designers, and runway. So to answer your question, yeah, it's directly through a vehicle that exists, because if we were to say, hey, this is where you need to come, this is where it's cool — it doesn't resonate. I think that's kind of cool too, because there's an onus on brands to deliver product, experiences, and culture to the end user, which is exciting. So the word cool has

[51:47] bubbled along underneath the surface of all this, and I think back to the surf brands of the early 2000s, late '90s — those brands were cool, and they're not cool anymore, you know, and some of them still have a level of it, but a lot of them aren't cool brands anymore. For Salomon to be maintaining its level of cool is a testament to the work

[52:19] you guys are doing here, and the work everyone's doing with the brand internationally. We spoke a bit about that earlier — to talk about today's run a bit more, how are your legs right now, because mine are cooked? They're okay, I think tomorrow will be interesting. Lucky we had a big pie and a sausage roll to refuel. But I think you'll feel it tomorrow — that climb was significant, the downhill too, you'll get that DOMS, that delayed muscle onset —

[52:50] what's coming next, running-wise? Was it DOMS? Yeah, delayed onset muscle soreness, that's the one. It's alright, you'll get there. What's coming next for you, running-wise? What's next is Goldie, I reckon. Oh, that's mine too, there's something in common there — it's PB Liam 2.0, number two, one-zip at the moment. You came to my home ground, I think I've got to come up to your home ground. What's your goal for Goldie? As close to three as possible, yeah, as close to three as

[53:20] possible. Do you want to hear why? We can't tell the story right now, there's a surprise coming for people — not this Wednesday, next Wednesday, that surprise is coming. I am shooting for sub-3 at the Gold Coast Marathon, that is my goal, I set that goal at the start of this year, and I'm going to keep that goal, that's my goal for the Gold Coast Marathon this year. We've got the amazing Benita Willis coaching us — Lace Up Running is her coaching company, and she's taken me under her very experienced wing,

[53:53] so I've got a bit of a cheat code. Who's your coach, Liam? No excuses there. Where's your programme coming from — genuinely, I want to ask. My programme has come from meet-ups — I'm super fortunate to have an athlete team giving me all the tips and tricks, hey, let's go for a run here, let's do this. Back to your point, I'm in your hands — is it

[54:24] just get Ks in the legs? For the Backyard it was really tough training for 100 Ks — it was get Ks, go hard, go fast, go as long as you possibly can, and I was pretty comfortable with the 100 days at Backyard. So I don't have a defined plan, but when I said meet-ups, it's catching up with these guys and saying, hey, I'm in Queensland — was it two weeks ago? Yeah, we caught up with these guys — he's never asked me for the training,

[54:55] he's asked me for plenty of other advice but not the training advice, breakfast partner-in — yes, because you're injured. Okay, this is exciting, so it's Liam 2.0 — what kind of, you did a Backyard the other day, 100K, what kind of — I told everyone at work it was 104, which it was — 104 kilometres you knocked out. How many kilometres, give or take, are you knocking out a week to manage that? At the minute, with work as well and some travel coming up, I'm just trying as hard as I possibly can around the 60 to 70 Ks. I know that sounds

[55:25] low, but again, it's just Ks in. I'm doing 50 to 60 at the moment, so mine's on the lower end too. No, but for both of you, this is a common thread now — I think there's this notion out there that everyone runs more Ks than they really do. Maybe this is the biggest week I've ever done — how many Ks are you running now? 100 K, but I've done that once in the last six months. When you start to look, you're right, when you've got travel and work and all these other things, you're talking 50 to 60 Ks, that's a good amount of

[55:56] Ks, and obviously you can go and run 104 out of it — achievable is the other number too. They're going to be close, Courtney. At Gold Coast, I think Liam obviously needs to get his finger out today — well, I got beat up today, this buddy did 1600 metres of elevation, that's more than I think I've done. What I can say is I know Liam's going to be prepared amazingly,

[56:27] because we talked about the coach Benita he's got — if someone asked me who to go to for a marathon, to train at any level, I'd say 100% just go and see Benita, she's done it, but she's also got a lot of — and this is what we're learning, you're going to learn off her — there's a lot of background there of understanding first-time runners, the whole scale of runners. You're getting towards a level now where you're knocking out kilometres, doing 100 Ks and all that, and asking elite runners for that information —

[56:58] it kind of makes sense if you're going out for your first marathon, or if today was your first time running 25K in a trail race, it's probably different information you've got to source, and I don't always say you can find that information on the web, but you're always better going and asking someone who's actually done it before, who has the expertise. I love that you just said one thing I know is Liam will be ready because of his coach — nothing to do with him, because of his coach, that's great. You've been training consistently, but I also know Pete over here has been doing,

[57:30] you know, he's looking slim, ready, fit, compared to two years ago when I saw him run, and I'll tell you what, he's on the up. Are we running that bet back? Running the bet back — the bet you made up today, that you didn't shake on. You're still trying to become a Salomon athlete over here — man, I want to get involved with this. I actually, no, you don't want me being one of your athletes, I might ruin the corners, I might be the thing that finally gets you excluded. I tell you what, if you were ever interested in doing a Salomon excursion — I know you've got your man

[58:00] Courtney on the Gold Coast as well, but I love the idea of those Salomon excursions, that's cool. There's nothing — my oldest daughter is at that excursion stage now at school, you think back to excursions as a kid, it was the greatest day, if you knew it was an excursion day at school, regardless of where you were going, it gave you a sense of excitement. I think it's that we always

[58:30] talk about rediscovering the childlikeness of adulthood, and finding the fun again — the idea of going on adult excursions instantly takes you back. And I'm spoiling some surprises here — we'll have an excursion this year that's going to include a permission slip. I love it, of course it has to have a permission slip, it has to — I sign those on the weekly at the moment for my daughter, and that's all part of it.

[59:01] If you had one place in Australia to go and run, Pete, where would it be — obviously don't tell me the excursion spot, but where do you want to go? You're right into trails, you're in a business that gets out there and explores the outdoors. Where do you want to go and run in Australia if you could? I actually want to do the Red Centre — yep, I think from what I've learnt from you, and seen from other team members, the Red Centre's got heaps to offer. What about if you could travel globally to do a run?

[59:32] Italy was pretty special, that race in Milan, running around that lake, the vibe of the community stopping for that particular race — we're seeing absolute whippets up with poles, flying uphill, you and I would have seen that. The Pastore Boys, back to you — Pastore Boys 2.0, you reckon? It's a high bar — he gets to travel to Annecy multiple times a year and go running in the mountains. Yeah, it's a beautiful part

[01:00:03] of the world. I want to hear more about your time in that part of the world on a later podcast too, please. Well, this is the story — my travelling days, I lived 50 kilometres from a different lake down at Lac Léman, we'd go to Annecy just on our Friday day off to grab some crepes and coffee and have a day off. I had no idea Salomon existed at that stage, I was never around snow, I hadn't got into trail — I probably knew the brand but had no idea it

[01:00:33] existed there. The crazy thing is, since I've been running for them, I've never been back to that area — wink wink, I'll FaceTime you, wink wink. I hear Pete going over there plenty of times. That was the perfect response from Pete — Courtney's hinting at maybe getting to go over there, and Pete's offered to FaceTime. Perfect response. You know the distance around the lake — 42 Ks? You're kidding. No, do they do a marathon? Of course they do.

[01:01:03] When's that happening? I think it's in September — sounds like a perfect time for an excursion, have you got a permission slip? It's all coming. Pete, we've been talking a lot today about kunanyi being unique — well done, very special presenting this event, it was incredible, and I'm saying this, I do think I want to run it, I've run up there but not in the race. What else have we got on the year, what else can we look forward to with the Golden Trail Series? So Golden Trail is now ranked,

[01:01:33] round two, run one is done, and we'll go to Newcastle for the Coastal Ascent at the beginning of June — yes, sand in that one, I ran that last year, with whales in the background breaching, which was just spectacular. What a start to a race — you missed that, he didn't look wrong, he had to look wrong. And then the finals at BTU, Brisbane Trail Ultra, you ran up and down that neck of the woods. Yeah, that's right, so we'll be there at the end of June, and as you pointed out earlier, the top three

[01:02:04] winners get tickets, with the top men and women open-age getting paid trips to go and race the world's best at the World Series final — where is it, we don't know yet, somewhere in Europe, we don't know. Where have the past few been? Austria, Zegama, and yeah, we'll wait and see. Amazing, so this is — yeah, amazing. Pete, thank you so much for the time, for the opportunity to come down here to Hobart,

[01:02:34] this incredible little city that has this amazing playground for trail runners right on its doorstep. We were talking to the MC of the race this morning, and he was saying overseas visitors come here, and there's this idea of a vertical kilometre, a VK — some of these Europeans have to drive a long way to get to a VK, and Hobart has one on its doorstep here with Mount Wellington. So for you guys to have presented this, to have got us down here to be a part of it as

[01:03:05] well, was amazing. It's truly — we talk about experiences and excursions, and this has been an amazing experience and a grown-up excursion which I've thoroughly enjoyed. Didn't enjoy the L on my record, the loss I've chalked up to Pete, but Gold Coast — only one thing to do then, Liam, get out there, run a 2:59 and give Pete one of those. Give me a hug, I'll give you a hug. Exactly, well, that's our tradition — well, maybe that's the next time we talk. Alright, amazing, thank you, appreciate it.