EP20 - CLIFFY YOUNG SHUFFLE

[00:00] EP20 — in the beginning, we made it out of our teenage years. Courtney, 20 episodes, how you doing? Mate, I'm home, which is good. We're in person again after last week, but I just realised how hard it is training in heat. I'd had a little bit of altitude training down at Falls Creek at the end of last year, didn't really think too much of it at the time, came back to Queensland and it was hot. I've just been in Japan for two weeks, I ran in Kyoto last week and it was 0 degrees.

[00:30] Each morning I went out and ran, I was in a coat, no stress. Got back here at 8:00 AM, ran along the beach this morning — easy — and I think it was the hardest run I've done in the past year. It's so steamy on the coast at the moment, it's hot, and I'm in pro hours these days and I haven't run for the last two days because it's too hot. I don't blame you. It takes that to make you realise just how hard it is to train here, and probably why a lot of the elites don't train in this weather. It's just too hot.

[01:00] It is good to be back in person though. Last week you were in Japan, I was sitting here on the Goldie. It's great to be back. We've got some things cooking, right in the beginning — I can't say too much, it's going to be a big year mate. Can't say much, but suffice to say if you're on board the In The Beginning journey now, stay on board this year, there's plenty of stuff to come. If you want to bail at the end of the year, fine, but stay on board for this year, there's some stuff on the way mate. I'm going to get stuck straight into something that I found

[01:30] really interesting. You know Iron Man — well, we won't talk about tattoos, but you know the cars that drive around with Ironman stickers on them. So we're talking Ironman triathlon here. Have you ever seen a 26.2 mile sticker? Never. Now have a listen to this. 'How you doing man? I'll put it this way — we've all travelled 26.2 miles in our life, I just so happened to do it on foot and complete the whole thing in a span of three to six hours.

[02:00] My name is Pranay, nice to meet you. Got pulled over the other day because I had my marathon medal on a resistance band hanging from my rear-view mirror. Cop said it would prevent me from being aware of my surroundings. I said if we take it down it'll prevent other people from being aware of my accomplishments. Some other people must have seen it hanging there too because I got honked at. We both jumped out of our cars so fast — I was decked in a full tracksuit, challenged him to do a 5K straight up. Once I showed him the 26.2 sticker on my rear bumper, he hopped back in his vehicle so fast I thought he'd seen a ghost.

[02:30] I want people to look at my car and think, is that the amount of miles he ran in a day, or is that the amount of times he tells people that's the amount of miles? At my last job interview, the employer asked what I could bring to the table if hired. I said one word: perseverance. And in lieu of a resume I just left him with a 26.2 sticker and a wink on my way out the door. Next week I'll be appointed CEO.' My wife thinks... we'll leave it there. This one reminded me of you at work, and this is from

[03:01] we love him, Matt — Matt's lines, mate. And what do you reckon, is the 26.2 thing — this is obviously happening in America, he's taking the piss out of it. Do you think you can see this coming to Australia? We'd have to change it to 42.2, which is not as fun a sticker, I don't think. No, I hope not, and I don't think it would take off here. I don't think the tall poppy syndrome that exists in Australia would allow people who've run a marathon to get so far ahead of themselves that they start adorning their cars

[03:31] or their bodies with stickers or tattoos. I reckon they will, mate. No, surely not. How many cars have you seen driving around — and probably not so much these days, but when Ironman first really took off — how many tattoos? I see a lot of Ironman tattoos, but I think — and I guess it's how you view the athletic achievement, this might be hypocritical — OK, I'm OK with you getting an Ironman tattoo.

[04:01] I'm OK with anybody that's completed an Ironman getting that famous tattoo. I don't think a marathon justifies it. It doesn't, only because — I'll put it this way — if you want to walk-run a marathon you can, and you'll be done in six hours. If you want to try and walk, run, dog-paddle, freestyle or roll

[04:33] your legs through an Ironman, that's a day that's probably going to take you 24 hours if you do it that way. And I think there's maybe more — I'm figuring this out on the fly — if you ran 100 kilometres or 100 miles, do you think you can get, I don't even know what brand it is, an ultra-trail sticker? What is it, a UTMB sticker.

[05:06] Let me flip this on you, OK — do you have the Olympic rings tattooed? I do not, but I'm not a tattoo guy. Is it not a consideration, whether you should have the Olympic tattoo on you? I just don't want tattoos, I don't like tattoos. What do you think of the Olympic tattoo, and that notion of when people go to the Games, they get the rings — they're super proud they made the Olympics, good on them, and if you like tattoos, go for it.

[05:36] I mean, the reason I don't — I shouldn't say I don't like tattoos, I love the look of tattoos, sure — but they're not for me, because I know throughout life what I would have got if I was going to get a tattoo at 18, and what that would be now, I'd be thinking, what did I do? You know what, I couldn't agree more, and this is evidence, proof of the fact that I'm not a tattoo person either.

[06:08] Because I imagine if you're a tattoo person who wants to get a tattoo, you just go and get it — you figure out what you want and you go and get it. I once toyed around with a tattoo, drew it on in texta for like a day, and then when people asked what's on your hand, I was like, nah, I can't be bothered answering the question of what's on your hand, I don't want people asking me about it, it's just going to annoy me. I mean that's probably half the reason a lot of people get tattoos — they want someone to ask them. If you're going to get a tattoo,

[06:39] you want people to look at you. Are you saying that people with tattoos are boring and don't have anything interesting to say? Good conversation, but no — if you think about it, this is me personally, if hopefully I get to be 70 or 80 years old mate, what's that going to look like? Am I going to be a guy rocking around... that's a question we'll get to know the answer to hopefully in 20-30 years time when this generation hits old age.

[07:10] Correct, but to go back to this — it's a bit different, a bumper sticker. No, well, I'm saying watch this space. I can see people taking this on as a trend — it's just as much as when you're proud and you wear that medal, whether it's an Ironman medal, a marathon medal, whatever it is, and you wear it around the day after because you're proud of doing it. Do you still have —

[07:41] a trophy room? No. Do you have — because I know you've got your shoe museum. I've got one Olympic suitcase, and anything I've ever done in sport, Olympic uniforms or anything, is in that suitcase. If it doesn't fit in that suitcase, it doesn't get kept — a bit of minimalism, right. And how often do I open that suitcase, to be really honest, after a couple of Olympics and all the medals and whatever's in there —

[08:15] I don't know, the only time I've ever opened that suitcase is for the kids' school fancy dress. This is a case for hoarding stuff, right? The only time I've opened it is to look for fancy dress. If your kids ever need an Australian judo outfit, I've got a Beijing Australian judo outfit that I flogged from

[08:46] the drawer in the apartment, because I spent a night in with the judo team in one of the apartments, and I thought, this looks great, no one's gonna notice — they probably get 20 for their competition, no one will notice this one, I've got some hoodies too. Do you ever want to have an Australian Olympic runner outfit? I'm just imagining one of your kids turning up at a school thing rolling in with the biggest swagger ever because it's proper Olympic kit. But my kids never wanted to touch it.

[09:16] That's why I'm offering it, it's for hire. So yeah, going back to the reason I asked — this notion of running and events and challenging yourself — I don't have any medals from, I never competed at the Olympics or won anything, but you get medals when you finish races. I've done a few, participation medals, and I don't know where they are, because you see some

[09:47] people create incredible medal walls with these awesome racks for all their bibs — every number means something, because every race means he travelled somewhere, and I'm all positive for this. Every day he can go into his garage and it all has meaning of where he's travelled, where he's raced around the world, what events. That's a friend of mine. But no, I wanted to ask you —

[10:17] you talked about not keeping those medals, but is there one from an event that sticks out where you're like, that was sick, I want to keep that? Do you know what I do have — I've got the big wet-pack dry-bag carry bag from Red Bull, from the Defiance, was it Defiance to Summit? Yeah, the big thick grey-silver one, which is awesome. I'm not sure if it was the Defiance to Summit year or the year before,

[10:48] I can't remember the brand, but the reason I keep it is because I use it, it's great, so it's usability — but also, to get back to your friend with the bibs — it's special to me because it's a race I did with my mate Ed, who's my best mate, and we did this thing together, so it inevitably has memories for me and makes me think back to those two days of the race. The medals, I wouldn't —

[11:18] I don't know if I'd have that same feeling from a medal necessarily. In fact I've got the Defiance medal somewhere, but the bag is a much more valuable memento of that race to me than the medal. Well, I suppose when you see it all the time and can use it, it adds value — that was the purpose of those bags in the race in the first place, they have a purpose, they're not just produced for the sake of it, and you can use them ongoing. And the third part of that conversation for anyone who runs events is: quality matters.

[11:50] You can produce a lot of crap out of China that will just get thrown out, or you can collab and do something with a really good quality partner — it's not even about the brand, it's about the quality, people will keep it and use it. I love this, because — that's probably the last time you'll hear me say that — it's about sustainability, you're not just going to throw it out when you get home. I'm jumping straight in my mind now, thinking of events that I've

[12:20] done where — what T-shirt size are you, what visor — I'd rather turn up to an expo or bib pick-up and get less, but imagine if a race did a collab with one of those metal drink-bottle manufacturers, a branded metal drink bottle, it's got to be like a Yeti or

[12:50] a Frank Green or whatever — it's got to be quality. But that, for me, is something I'll continue to use, it's tangible, and it also reinforces the quality of the event — it says this is a good event that's collabing well with other brands, it's fed income, it's a proper serious event. Look at the quality of the participation gift you get. So would you then be willing to

[13:20] pay more money to enter that event potentially? In fact, I'd rather get that than a medal at the end — and I know you can't wear a drink bottle, but imagine a finisher's coffee cup — imagine if you cross the line at City2Surf and instead of having a medal put around your neck, they handed you a Frank Green coffee cup that said City2Surf 2025. I'd much prefer that, because then the next day when you go into the office, you show

[13:51] them your Frank Green coffee cup, you drink your coffee, and every day you remind people you're better than them because you ran the thing. Every event organiser's going, medals cost us $1 or $2 each and these guys are talking about coffee cups — the economics of it is not my problem, I'm just saying how I feel. OK, now you just said you'd be willing to wear a bumper sticker if you did the distance — so we're talking about bumper stickers, that's a good segue into

[14:21] talking about distances, because we've talked on this show a lot about — let's call them influencers — who are doing charitable runs across Australia, across the UK or wherever, everyone knows who we're talking about, plenty of them. Now let's give a little bit of kudos to the OG, the original, the man — I like this story, tell the story and we'll get to it.

[14:51] At the start of one of the world's toughest ultra marathons, a 540 mile trek from Sydney to Melbourne, a farmer showed up dressed in overalls and gumboots over his boots. When reporters asked who he was, he replied that his name was Cliff Young. He was 61 years old and sometimes ran for three days straight chasing sheep on his farm, so he was confident he could run the five days needed to cover the distance. The other participants were elite runners from all over the world sponsored by major sports

[15:24] brands, most of whom were under 30. Runners typically ran for 18 hours and slept for six to cover the distance, however it was discovered the day after the race started that Cliff Young had run through the entire night without sleep. Five days, 15 hours and 4 minutes later, he finished first in this gruelling race, beating his nearest competitor by 10 hours. He admitted that he didn't even know runners were allowed to sleep during the race. Cliff declined the $10,000 prize

[15:57] money and shared it among the next five runners who finished after him. He became an Australian national hero and a true icon of ultra marathon running, exemplifying how determination, perseverance and unconventional thinking can overcome any physical challenge. I got sent that reel, and amazingly the day before you sent it to me, three other people had sent me that reel too. It's such a cool

[16:28] story. Well, thanks to Ando for sharing that with me, but it's such a cool story — three things really stuck out to me in that. It was a race, I guess — the test wasn't about a time or anything else, it was a race. And how do you win? He didn't sleep — you have to work it out, it's not about telling everyone, doing all that. I thought about that, it's a

[16:59] race. OK, right, number two, I love the idea at the end that he shared the money with the athletes — he was a sheep farmer, and there were athletes there by the sounds of it, and look, this story may have a bit of embellishment, it's off the internet, but the idea of that was what made me nearly tear up at the end — how good is this guy, he knows these guys are obviously bread and butter and he's gone, you know what?

[17:29] I've just come along and don't really know what's going on, mate, you guys go and have this — I like that, if that part of the story is true. Is it? There's not much about it that isn't — I did a bit of research into this, because I know the shuffle, right, the Cliffy shuffle. I know the general story about Cliff Young, but when I saw this reel and knew we were going to talk about it today, I did a bit of digging. There is a little bit of myth in that — he did sleep on the first night, and what happened was he woke up earlier than he'd planned, his alarm actually went off

[17:59] earlier than he'd meant to set it, and that's when he kind of went, oh, I've got a lead here, I'll just keep running. And the thing about him not doing it in gumboots — he did turn up in gumboots, but someone gave him a pair of runners, so he did the race in runners. But it's the mystique of it, right — it's become a fable, it's grown like Chinese whispers have grown it, but what I love is it's grown on the authenticity of

[18:30] there being no bullshit around this — it's a race, he won a race, other people turned up over the same distances. I don't know if this happens anymore, this particular one — well, Coast to Kosci would be the closest thing I can think of, where a number of people start on a start line and run. I think Coast to Kosci might be 240Ks, I'm going to get called out on this so I probably won't say it, but it's from Kosciuszko to the coast, which ain't short. Yeah, the other part I love

[19:00] about the reel and the story is that all these people who set out to achieve something, one of these challenges — there's a level with a lot of them, not all of them, where they're not doing it to accomplish the thing, they're doing it because they're hoping the byproduct of

[19:32] what they're doing results in fame and fortune. I think that might be my cynical take on it, but Cliff Young — different era, sure — turned up, and it's a bit like what you're saying about it being a race. He turned up not because he thought it was going to make him famous or lead him to a better life or a life of opportunity. He turned up because — and this is doing a bit more research on it — he'd run the Melbourne Marathon a couple of times

[20:03] before he competed in this ultra. His best time in the Melbourne Marathon was 3:02 — solid, a good marathon runner without being a great marathon runner. He ran that 3:02, by the way, at the age of 58, because he did this ultra when he was 61. So he turned up to compete in this thing not because he hoped it would turn into — I don't know, Cliffy fans out there might

[20:33] disagree, but I think if some of the influencers in our world were a bit more like Cliffy Young, the running-influencing world would be a bit better off. Yeah, definitely — he resonated with me. We should have put him in the poll of best-known Australian runners actually. Oh, you know what, I reckon we'll leave it a little while, but maybe we can re-poll with some different runners in future, because Mona Getty was very similar to Cliffy —

[21:05] Cliffy, you know, came really high up. OK, here's a bit of audio for you Liam, what do you think is going on here? And I mean, you've got the show notes in front of you — you know what, I deliberately didn't look at this. In my head, I thought it sounded like the running of the bulls in Pamplona.

[21:35] That's what it brought back memories of for me. OK, well I've decided to throw the running out the door today, and I wanted to give a shout out — we've got the Jillaroos, the Jackaroos, the Socceroos, all these Roos — I want to give a shout out to what might be the most authentic Roos we've got as Australians, and it's called the Chopperoos. You know the Chopperoos? So at the moment, this audio was the moment Australia won their 5th consecutive Timbersports World

[22:07] Championship — lumberjacks, wood choppers, and they beat the US team in world record time. So that's obviously chopping wood, and there's a bit of — actual chainsaw in it. The chainsaw's the one I always think, that's — I know it's hard but it doesn't look that hard. Do you own a chainsaw? No, I've never used a chainsaw, so

[22:38] you're commenting on it a bit like some of my run shoe reviews, mate. But I'm going to go out and break the world record for chainsaws because it can't be that hard. Talk about this — well, one, beating the lumberjacks of the US, I'd consider that home turf for them. Do you reckon there's — how many Tasmanians do you reckon would be in this team? Oh, lots, it'd be dominated by Tassie, has to be a Tassie team. I'm assuming there's a Foster in there, the progeny of the great Dave Foster.

[23:08] I don't know, but I remember starting a race at — what is it, west of Launceston — called Mole Creek. And I can imagine, if anyone knows Mole Creek, that's like the epicentre of lumberjack training. Actually, here's a fun fact — remember that race I was telling you about, that I did with Kenny Wallace, Mark Webber's adventure race? The very first year I did

[23:39] that, it could have been Mole Creek, someone would know this — we started this adventure race with the team having to cut through a Tasmanian log. That's how it started, you could not get on your bikes to start the course until the team had cut through it. So I'm assuming Kenny did most of it for you. No, no, because — I don't know what you call this saw, it's on either end, two-

[24:10] sided, yeah, think of that. A seesaw, that's kidding, no — think of a big lump of log, and every team had a log, and you had to cut through it with your team before you could get on your bike. I love that, that would — I love that as an inclusion in an adventure race, it's something different, something unique, something out of the skill set for most athletes. And you know what would have been better? They could have made coffee tables out of your nice chopped

[24:41] logs, and as you finish, there's your participation souvenir. They should put us in charge of more stuff — participation souvenirs, we might have found a niche, Courtney, let's think more on this. Hey, we got some loose ends to tie up from last week's episode while we were apart. Can I just start quickly, I want to tie a loose end — I threw this out last week when we were talking. Jordan Barter sent in the race his old man used to do where they'd run around horse tracks, get on the train, then get to the next horse track. The third track they ran around

[25:12] was not Randwick, it was in fact Warwick. But the other loose end — I mentioned a train station race that took place in Sydney, and I had a look at it, it's not a running event, it's a logistics event. Basically the way it's done is that a fellow named Colin Burnett, last time I checked, has the record — there are 178 train stations in Sydney and the goal is to get to

[25:44] every train station in a day. The record is 15 hours, 54 minutes and 14 seconds, but there's limited running involved — it's basically about coordinating the timetables of the trains, there are 50 million possible combinations of the order you visit the stations in. So I think Colin, well he's a database consultant, so he knows how to work an algorithm. We could call it an orienteering race with train times.

[26:15] It's a public transport orienteering race, so less about running, more about being able to coordinate train times. I'd challenge him to try and do that on Tokyo's train system. Good luck to him, mate. Well, I'm still interested in the horse race, and I'm also interested — I love finding new places to run, new trails to run. With running booming, I'd also like to understand

[26:47] accessibility to race tracks, to places that are normally off limits. 100%. Or is there anywhere else we can think of that we can't run that we'd like to run? And do we have enough of a population running now that we can sway those judgements, because that's what it is — vote with your feet. If you get enough people who put their hand up and say they'll be there — like, how much do you pay to go into a public swimming pool these days, what, 7 bucks?

[27:17] 7 bucks for a swim, 10 bucks for a swim — imagine you had 500 runners show up to run in a place and pay 5 or 10 bucks, make a bit of coin out of it. That's interesting. Yeah. All right, so still on those loose ends — you brought up this idea of when people who listen to the podcast see each other on a trail or on the road, having a bit of a sign you can give each other, and we kind of went with 'doffing'. We —

[27:47] doffing — is it doffing the cap? Yeah, I'll get it right — it's DOFFING, doffing the cap, OK, doffing the cap, from the Old English term. I have a bit of a story — when I got home yesterday, I went to ride my mountain bike out in the Nerang National Park, and as I rode in, I saw a few fellas, and I generally don't

[28:17] ride in my Red Bull cap when I'm out in the forest, because I'm not a Red Bull mountain bike racer — like when I'm adventure racing or we're doing video or whatever, I'll always wear my Red Bull cap helmet. But yesterday I did put it on, rode into the forest, don't know why I was wearing it, but a few people looked at me and I swore I nearly got a bit of a doff. And I was thrown, because I didn't know how to return it — I was like, is this actually a thing,

[28:51] or is it just someone giving me a wave as I go past? They have no idea who I am. And then I got self-conscious about it, like I didn't return it, they're gonna think we're absolute wankers now. Oh, it threw me. Well, I had a similar experience — I was running in the Ranges over the weekend, last weekend, and I ran past a couple of fellas, one great interaction, which was — I was descending, I was

[29:21] doing that 17K loop running counter-clockwise, and as I was descending that hill — we talked about power hiking last weekend — a fellow was coming up, I was going down, we passed, and he gave me a big wave and said, I'm listening to you right now. I was like, no way, that's awesome. Then as we passed by, he turned and said, I'm listening to you talking about running this hill. I was like, that's amazing. Then when I got back to the car, another fellow I'd run past came up and said, are

[29:53] you Liam? And I said yeah, and he goes, I've just been listening to the podcast while doing the loop. I said, oh, that's awesome, his name's Matt — shout out Matt — but he said, as I went past, I thought, oh, I should doff my cap, but he wasn't running with a cap. So I think doffing the cap, while a nice starting point, presents a problem, because if someone's running without a hat, what do they do? I don't know if it's perfect. OK.

[30:24] We might have jumped ahead a bit here in the run sheet, but — one of my mates, Brett Carter, wrote to me and said, look, similar concept — why not just give each other a finger? Then you'll know. That's a bit harsh, because it's an all-or-nothing play, and who would initiate that? I'm not going to be initiating running past someone and giving them — so OK, we know it's not doffing

[30:56] the cap because not everyone runs in a hat, and we know it's not the finger because no one's brave enough to initiate it. Let's keep workshopping this — we need to decide on the In The Beginning podcast running greeting you can share with other runners. Maybe it's just a wink, an anonymous smile. We'll keep working on it. And the last one — your fluoro socks made our episode last week, and I have recovered from seeing them.

[31:28] But I got a story — well, this is a story, I'm going to read it because it'll be easier. Henry Coombs is a doctor here on the Gold Coast — my story about how to treat snake bites has come from a few runs with Henry, and going, well, he's a doctor, I trust him, he's the one who said you should — this is what I want to do now. Henry always used to run with one fluoro calf sock, and I one day asked him why.

[31:59] And here's the story — if anything happens to you on the trails, it'll be easy for people to find you, especially if you're by yourself. Maybe it means if you fall off a cliff, if you've got a bit of fluoro on, you're not going to be camouflaged as much into the brush, so that makes a bit of sense. You'd be surprised how much one calf sock can do to help you

[32:30] from a broken bone, to a snake bite — and then the one he didn't say, but obviously, toilet paper. And that way you can keep your two socks if you're in trouble. So this has changed my — I've recovered a little bit from seeing them, mate, but I trust Henry, and this is

[33:00] something we can talk about, maybe. OK, not for me, I'd still rather carry it somewhere else. So the validity, the usefulness of a single calf sock — it adds visibility in case of genuine danger, imagine you put the flag up. But it's also, I guess, like a lot of watches and phones these days have incident detection on them, so if something does happen, they can report it.

[33:30] But if you don't, your family knows you're the guy with the pink running calf compression sock, and you can ask people, has anybody seen this guy? You become readily identifiable, which is great. And then there's the tourniquet benefit as well. Look, it's ticking all the boxes for me, maybe I'll bring the yellow socks out of the cupboard, they're still in there. I don't mind that. All right, enough of that — we've talked a lot of interesting stuff to begin this week, but how's your run week been, what have you been up to Liam? Since last week I've put a

[34:04] real focus on trails, a real focus on elevation — kunanyi is on the cards, so I put a real focus on getting up in the trails. I did three trail runs last week, and it was interesting going back to that kilometres-versus-intensity discussion we'd had — I did about the same amount of kilometres as the week prior, but did an hour more on feet and had 1500 metres of elevation in the week. Really enjoyed getting back up there.

[34:36] I did the Nerang trail — interestingly, my 17K loop time was 9 minutes slower than the quickest I've ever done it, but I actually felt pretty good, so I'm looking forward to more trail running. What I do want to share with you though is the Burleigh swim-run event we spoke about — I'd signed up, I swim like a rock, but I'd been promised by Ty Dalka that it would be pond-like conditions in the swim. It was not a pond.

[35:06] There were some waves rolling, it was raging — well, probably not raging, but certainly rolly, certainly a bit bumpy. Much better swimmers than me, surf athletes, described it as a bit of a rough swim. I was internally chuffed I got through it — there was only a brief flirtation with asking the rubber ducky to come save me, but I got through a 400 metre swim. 38 athletes in my age group, the 40-49 age group. I reckon I would have come out of the swim maybe 30 seconds —

[35:38] there weren't a lot of people behind me. I thought you were going to go 39th then. Well, I think I beat a couple out of the swim but not many. By the time I finished the run, which is a 4K soft sand run — what is soft sand? Yeah, that's changed — did you used to run on the path? I've never done the event myself, but I'm sure it used to run up the path. No, it used to be on the sand and then you'd run up the path. No, you're on the sand for the whole run, soft sand too, and you're allowed to get down near the water, but on the day there was not

[36:10] a lot of that, it was high tide, so it was a 4K run on the sand, and by the time I finished I was smack bang in the middle, #19 out of 38 — so right in the middle, wasn't passed on the run, which was nice. From a timing perspective, I was averaging 4:20s on the sand, which I was very pleased with, felt pretty consistent. All in all, awesome event, so much fun. My daughter did the wade race as

[36:41] well, she loved it. My wife was laughing because she was looking at Quinn, my daughter, and saying she's nervous-excited — she's nervous because she's never done anything like this, but genuinely excited, there's an energy to it. I was just nervous. Yeah, she was like, there was no excitement about you, you're just nervous, because you've got to swim and it's not what you're good at. What a great place — you're out in the ocean swimming, running along Burleigh Beach, one of the great beaches in the world. What a —

[37:12] so well done to the Burleigh swim-run crew. Do you know who won, by any chance, the male and female? I don't, but I do know the men's team event was taken out by — there's an Aussie swimmer called Maximilian Giuliani, he was there, had the Olympic tattoo, massive unit — and the runner, Luke Sayers, I want to say he's a

[37:43] physio, I think it's Luke Sayers, he's a physio at my Gold Coast physio who actually treats Alana, my wife. So yeah, he's a good runner. Congrats to everyone, that's awesome to hear. And the other thing I want to quickly chime in on before we get to your running in Japan — I now blame this podcast, I am now the runners' gifting consultant. I reckon in the last month or so I've received messages from

[38:17] half a dozen partners of friends who have taken up running, going, hey, what should I get so-and-so for their birthday. I've had direct inquiries about the watch after we discussed watches — hey, I want to get that watch for so-and-so's birthday, can you send me all the details on it, is it the right one? Do you feel the pressure? Yeah, this is a responsibility I didn't ask for. Now I'm not a great gift-giver at the best of times,

[38:48] but now I'm responsible for it — I wanted to share this because as running booms, a lot of people out there either they or their partners are into running, and people will go, oh, maybe I can get you something for running. My most recent interaction, I nailed it — I won't say the name, but the message I got from his partner was, help, please, what are some good running

[39:18] brands for his birthday, basically what do runners like? That was the question I was given by his wife. And I said, first thing, what does he need — does he have the shoes he wants or likes? If he's got shoes and a watch, let's move on. Then I said, next question, is there a particular race you know he'd like to do — an entry into something might be good. And then, as far as other gear goes, I've just started running in these and it was the Salomon shorts you gave me,

[39:50] they're expensive but they're awesome. I said, given the head he's got, assume he's got plenty of hats. And then I said fresh running shirts are always good, encourages you to throw out the old stinky ones — I really like these Puma ones, simple but light, that I've been running in as well. She wrote back, awesome, thank you, I think the shorts and an entry to a trail run is a good idea. He said he feels bad when he books an entry into an event

[40:22] that might take time away from the family or time away from training, that sort of stuff. So I'd say to anybody out there with a partner interested in running: find a race you think they might like and enter them into it, because a) it'll motivate them to train, and b) it shows it's sanctioned by you, that it's OK, we support you, go out and do this, it's great for you, we like you being happy and healthy and chasing something you're interested in. Maybe don't go as far as running across Australia, that's probably gonna take —

[40:53] don't run for a week, don't wait to sign up for a 7-day event. But just pick something you think they might like an entry for. How good, alright, I'm going to pretty much class you in the influencer category now. No — hey, talk to me about running in Japan, please. Well, the good news is I was just going to grab my phone to look at my Strava, but between Fraser Island, being a bit limited running there and travelling, and then straight into Japan for a couple of weeks, I've been limited.

[41:23] But I noticed I still managed to get about 50 to 60 kilometres of running done each week, so even though I had 7 full days off at one stage, the mileage is somehow maintained. It's probably not looking that great with a race in one month, but we can manage that. But the great thing that happened — this is the beauty of the good side of socials — I put a couple of runs up in the middle of Tokyo, and we spoke about being in Tokyo last

[41:55] week — a mate of mine, or I suppose a colleague originally, Billy Curtis, who's a bloody great trail runner, I think he's won Buffalo Stampede, I raced him at Newcastle at the Salomon Golden Trail race last year — I reached out, said, you're not coming to Kyoto by any chance? And he's like, tomorrow, I'm in Kyoto for two days. He's living in Kyoto at the moment for the sole purpose of running.

[42:25] In Australia, I suppose what I gathered is it's a little bit hard to make coin trying to be professional, and Asia's got a great trail-running scene, Hong Kong, the Japanese are super strong — something like 79% of Japan's terrain is mountains. So mate, I got a tour guide running around, first up

[42:58] the hills of Kyoto, and then the next day we went, just yapping away, running about 17K along the river, the flat run. I could have spent weeks there just running. So what started off as no running turned into a great experience, and I wish him all the best with what he gets up to up there — I'll keep an eye on him now. This is that — right, there is why

[43:28] I think I sent you this during the week — Contiki are now offering run holidays. I don't know if that's on the run sheet, it is, later on, so I'll leave it for the moment. But there's no better way to get to know a new city or town than by running around it early in the morning, because no one's out — this was the thing in Tokyo, by, I reckon, 7:30 in the

[44:00] morning I couldn't run down the streets, it was just chock-a-block, so you'd go to the park and do a few laps, and then dodge the lights and people on the way home. Get out at 5:30 and you can run anywhere you want, it's amazing. And Strava — I'm going to give Strava massive props here — because what Strava has done for international running is you can rock up anywhere and see that Strava heat map of where people run, and the stronger the line, the more people run in that area,

[44:31] so you can generally work out where the best running is in a city or on trails, pretty much instantly. Do you know what's interesting, that's clearly a premium feature. Oh god, I've done this to you before — I don't have premium Strava, and now I'm getting the feeling, do you remember when — how long did you hold out, am I being a bit of a leader here, no not at all — how long did you hold out on being one of those people without Spotify Premium, when if you'd

[45:03] just say yes for a while, shame, but now you have people come — of course, because if people come around your house for a barbecue and the playlist suddenly cuts out for an ad for Bunnings, you don't want that, it's embarrassing. And I wonder if we're going to get to that point in the running community around Strava, where people like you start talking about the heat map features and people like me hang our heads in shame because we don't have premium. What are you talking about, I don't know that feature,

[45:33] sorry. Well, you can look at segments as well, but it doesn't offer the same thing. Anyway, so I work out — you're dead right, it's the best way to see a city — I work out the family plan for the day of where we're going, often, which isn't always great for me because I've already seen it in the morning, but it's always a good way to avoid, oh god, why did we come here. Let's — you're troubleshooting the day out. I love that, that's great.

[46:03] That sounds amazing. Shout out to Billy Curtis — one of Australia's best trail runners, up in Asia now really giving it a proper crack, and he made me want to go and race, I'm like, where are you racing, I want to come and see what you're doing. You've got an itch to scratch now over in Japan and elsewhere with some races, haven't you. And then, certainly not much on the mileage front, but the body's feeling OK. I just got back and

[46:34] rode my mountain bike last night in the forest, ran along the beach this morning in the heat — mate, I've said for a while, this goes back to the days we've mentioned training with Michael Shelley, that you can go to altitude and get benefits, but there's also benefits to training in the heat, around blood plasma — and science will tell you a lot more than I can about it — but I've always felt it's helped, training in the heat. There is a detrimental side to it as well.

[47:05] It is tough, running is harder, you have to — on a day like today, you have to manage what you're doing, understand and listen to your body, and you don't have to finish what you set out to do. I was going to ask, I'm glad you brought this up, because I did have this down as something I wanted to ask you about — running in the heat, we know there's the Goggins community, which is grind through it, just get it done, that sort of attitude to running.

[47:37] Then there's, you know, my mum who says don't, you'll do yourself damage in this sort of heat. How do you, and this is only for you, how do you adapt and adjust to the heat — that idea of, I wanted to get out and get 20 minutes of threshold done with 10 minutes on the side, but it's just too hot, I'll adapt and do something else. I adjust, 100%, you have to adjust, sometimes it can just be too

[48:07] hard, or if you're not adjusting the session, you still want to achieve something, you've just got to tailor it back and go a little bit easier. And that's where heart rate is quite difficult when it's that hot, but it also provides a bit of a guide — when it's really hot your heart rate will just skyrocket and increase because your body's trying to do so much more to cool itself down. So it's a happy medium, everyone has a different way of attacking that. But then I think outside of

[48:39] running, that's where recovery really becomes important — the difference between running, doing the session, your core body temperature's up, everything's hot. Look, some people might go, well, perfect time for a nice bath — it may well be, but I find even just jumping in the ocean for 5 minutes to bring it down, having a cold shower, bring it down — I jump back in the car and feel a million bucks compared to if I hadn't done any of that. Electrolytes, like we've talked about, just managing those to make sure

[49:10] the fluids go back in better. But the one main thing I'd say in those conditions is get into air conditioning during the day. And not everyone — depending on your job, depending on what you do — that's not available to everyone. But if you want to recover, and you've got to train in the heat, get in the air-con during the day. I'll challenge one part of that — it is available to everyone, let me give you my hack. I used to do this when I was

[49:42] doing the run club in Brisbane, because during these summer months we're in right now, it'd be days where it was 30 degrees and we'd still go out at 11:00 AM and do this 31-minute run club — a 5 minute stroll through the frozen food section of Coles, Woolworths or Aldi brings your body temperature right back down. You just go for a walk — they aren't going to kick you out, you just peruse that frozen food section, put a podcast in, listen to In The

[50:13] Beginning podcast as you peruse the frozen food section, that's a perfect way to bring it down if you can't get to the ocean, a pool, air conditioning or an ice bath. If you're in the city, the frozen food section of your nearest IGA, Coles, whatever it is, is a perfect place to bring that core temperature back down. There you go, Liam's urban hacks. And I now apologise to the store managers of every shop that now has sweaty runners in their frozen

[50:43] foods, and slushies — 7-Eleven $1.50 slushies, can't go wrong — and then you can also get into the frozen food section too. Nice. All right, you got anything else from your own week, are we jumping into some strange events? Nah, let's just get into it, it's gonna get more interesting now because we've got an event — I don't know how long that is, I haven't worked it out. kunanyi is in two months.

[51:13] OK, two months. Two months from kunanyi, OK, well that's longer than I thought, 8 weeks. It's the 28th of March isn't it, pretty sure it's the last weekend of March. We're in the last weekend of January so we've got two months. Well, that's more time than I thought, I was kind of playing it down already going 5 weeks is going to be a bit of a challenge — 8 weeks is OK. Yeah, all right, so we'll have a lot more structured running conversation coming in the next few weeks, in the next few months. Let's go. OK, look at some of these last wonderful things — last week I just wanted to touch

[51:44] on quickly — last week I talked about, and you absolutely hated, synchronised cycling. Still do. I talked about a Red Bull athlete who does BMX flatland and the fact that he's a huge superstar. His name — Matthias Dandois, he's a French guy. Matthias Dandois. Thank you, you're welcome, pronunciation check — hey, it's never going to get old, me doing it to you. So he's this guy, it's a little bit like — I'm just

[52:18] trying to think — no, I won't go down the breakdancing route, but it's kind of like a sport where he does individually what you didn't — he rides, but he does it on a BMX, he's stylish, in the street, there are competitions for this, so he's the world champion at it, but he's also starred in French films, he's a model, he takes all these boxes, I'm in awe, this is the man I used

[52:50] to — I watched him a lot on Instagram, mainly because he's a Red Bull athlete too, and he kept popping up. He's made a good living out of being one of these BMX flatland guys. I'm having a look through some — can you see what he does right now? Yeah, they take him into museums and film him in the middle of — I think I even seen him at the Trevi Fountain in Rome, don't quote me, I think that's it. You know what, I'm watching some of his videos now and I love it. Do you know what the difference is,

[53:20] from that synchronised cycling last week — there was a bunch doing it at the same time, but they're wearing lycra cycling outfits. This guy's wearing streetwear, it's a whole vibe, there's a culture, an artistic element to it, and he's doing it very much in a style with what he's wearing, and I can sense that on the streets. So is he an artist or an athlete? He's both.

[53:50] Both, OK, I like it — an artist. Shout out, I like Matthias Dandois, I'll continue to look at him, that's a good one, I just followed him, nice, we'll put that one in the notes if anyone wants to check him out as well. So my next one, have you heard of stilt racing? No, and I get the sense I don't want to hear about it. No, you probably don't, but I think this comes from our Chinese friends again — let me just have a look — stilt racing.

[54:21] Yeah, definitely Chinese — I'm having a look at this video. One of the comments is, this is more of a sport than hobby-horsing. I agree with that. Look, this — yeah, no, just — there's no need for this sport.

[54:51] There's no need for a lot of sports. But these people doing this stilt racing are more than capable of running, and they're choosing to do it in stilts, which — this, there's no point in this. Is this the same idea as, you're not a fast runner, can't jump, can't throw for shit? Nah, but why don't you throw some stilts on and we'll make an event out of that. Nah, we're gone. I'm bringing one to the party here though this year Courtney, for the first time ever,

[55:22] officially I believe we will answer the question: can robots beat humans in a half marathon? Apparently in Beijing, when is it due — later this year in April, 12,000 humans will be racing the half marathon course against 20 robots. 20 companies are developing these humanoid robots to run a half marathon, so

[55:54] it's a bit of a company competition, best of the best — remember when they used to have that solar-race thing where schools and universities would design solar-powered cars to go from Darwin to Adelaide? They still do this, they were racing it in the Ranges one day around the crit circuit. So it's a bit like that, except instead of designing solar-powered cars, you're designing robots to run a marathon or half marathon. Do you know where I thought you were going there with the schools for a moment — the competitions where they build robots to

[56:26] fight each other. Yeah, it's like that, except instead of robots fighting each other, they'll be racing humans over a half marathon. We've seen a few robots run a marathon and make the distance, have we? Yes. I didn't know that, we haven't put that in one of the weeks. So I have seen, they've had robots run the marathon distance. Wow, it looks ugly, but they can do it. I like this because it's a race — I mean, that sounds a bit like how I run a marathon, it looks ugly and I can do it,

[56:56] but interesting, just looking at some of the data about it — I'll be fascinated to keep an eye on this when it actually happens, due in April. There's some specifications about the size of the robots, they have to be humanoid, right, you can't just build a car, it's got to run. Do you reckon they have that same rule you know, like race walkers — you've got to have contact, no wait, you've got to have no contact with the ground with one foot,

[57:27] completely off the ground, that would be the perfect rule wouldn't it. It says the distance from the hip joint to the sole of the foot should be at least 1.47 feet, so they're dictating, I don't know if there's any — you should be an adult robot. Yeah, anyway, but I think it's interesting to look at — there's one robot that's already sort of participated in this type of race before, and they've got it clocked at running 6.2 mph, which is about 10Ks an hour, so if it does this race it's probably going to come in at just over 4 hours for the

[57:59] total marathon time, OK. So the runners are going to win — not all of them, Courtney, not all of us. Think if they do this every year and you see the innovation, until the robot can — and then all of a sudden, remember when Jesse Owens famously raced a horse back in the day? They're talking back in the 19— tell me about this one. Yeah, Jesse Owens, the famous American athlete, raced a horse, he needed the money, which is a sad story in itself, but I love the idea that one day we'll see Eliud Kipchoge racing a robot.

[58:31] It'd be a match race. Were you telling me about Kipchoge — he's going to, Kipchoge's signed up for London, yeah, which is really exciting, that's a race I would watch, a straight-up race, Kipchoge versus a robot. Yes, I absolutely think that would get more — that would get more viewers than the sub-two-hour, the Breaking2 project. I'd nearly go as far as saying, if they did a head-to-head race, that race would

[59:03] — I think at the moment if you look at YouTube, the highest-watched clip was Felix Baumgartner, the Red Bull guy, jumping from space. I'd go as far as saying I reckon the robot versus Kipchoge would nearly outdo that. Do you know what it would be? It would be Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson of the running world, because

[59:34] Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson broke all boxing viewing records, right — crap fight, but the build-up and hype and noise was bigger than anything the boxing world had seen before. So even the boxing purists couldn't help but get involved because of the noise that was made, and because Mike Tyson was involved. Eliud Kipchoge would bring the purists in, the running purists in — and the robot brings you your Jake Paul, that's what brings you novelty.

[01:00:04] That's what brings you kids — that guy, the guy's racing a robot, I want to watch that. That's what brings the part-timers who'd never normally sit down and might not know who Eliud Kipchoge is, going, this guy's racing a robot, he's running, oh wow, I want to watch this. Can he outlast the robot? Can you imagine — the robot's just, it never falters, it's one pace, it's a perfect pacer, it's not going to change pace, it's just — can its battery last?

[01:00:37] I will — if we're going to make this thing happen, what I want the robot to be able to do is eyeball Kipchoge, I want the robot to be able to pull the Usain Bolt as they enter the final kilometre and be eyeballing Eliud, mate, make his head spin — anyway, but the point is, robots are going to race humans this year in a half marathon, I can't wait to see it, and I just hope that if they eventually teach them to run full marathons, they get the 26.2 sticker tattooed on

[01:01:10] the robot's leg. Oh yes, well, while we're talking about complete and utter nonsense here — left-field one — have you ever thought about building your house with Lego? Yes, I have. You have, OK, I've got kids, I've got Lego. You've thought about it, so there's a company — where are they from, if it's Lego it's probably Denmark, yeah, I'm tipping this could be a Scandinavian company,

[01:01:40] but they've literally got kit houses now, oversized Lego blocks, you can just buy the kit of the home you want and build it yourself. It's not plug-and-play, is it — what do you call that, click and click, click and collect? No, it's bricks, locking bricks a la Lego. This is perfect if you've got — I consider

[01:02:10] myself, I've never done a trade, I can tinker with bikes a little bit here and there, but if you asked me to do some carpentry it's gonna be a bit of a stretch. I like this — it's a nice idea, I'd want to see, I'd want somebody who knows what they're doing to tell me this is structurally sound, I'd want this to hold up. This big storm came through the Gold Coast last weekend and I

[01:02:40] went for a run on that border trail the next day and this storm took down some bloody big gum trees. I don't look at this video and think, yeah, that'll stand up in 70 kilometre-an-hour winds, it doesn't fill me with confidence from a structural perspective. I'd be happy to chance it, because I'm thinking this is going to save you a lot of money. No, I don't reckon, all right, I value my family. All right, from the left field to even more stupidity, good.

[01:03:11] Where are we going now? Do you think power tool racing should be an Olympic sport? No, I don't, I haven't even seen this. What are you talking about, power tool racing? Tool racing — sanders. Normally you have a sander and it kind of gets away from you sometimes, running a bit quick — put a little makeshift seat on it and plug it in, just like cockroach races. Sanding races. No, no, this — move on, look, move on

[01:03:42] though. What I would say is this should be part of the Timbersports, that's where this should be, not the Olympics — you'd have your designated — it's a bit like the coxes in rowing, where you've got all the big powerful athletes rowing the boat and then you've got the cox at the front telling them to stroke, stroke, stroke. That's where you put it in Timbersports — there's the big blokes with the chainsaws, the big blokes with the saws, and then you have your little whippet on the sander. On the sander.

[01:04:12] Jeez, you'd have to be careful running across the ground on that. All right, what do we got — I'm going to ask for your expert translation, oh yeah, OK, the race — Flambeau, yeah, so 'race to Flambeau'. Now this is one you've got to see in pictures, but it's literally doing the rounds at the moment online — everyone in the race has, now

[01:04:43] I'm going to think, what do you call it, a flaming torch, it's a torch, Indiana Jones style. Exactly the perfect description — if you think of an Indiana Jones movie, when he goes into any dark space, he picks up a stick and lights the end on fire, that's what these people are running with. 400 people in this race all have one of them to begin the race. It's a nocturnal race, an urban trail race over 18K, so it's in the city, obviously goes into some trails, 450 metres of elevation gain — a serious race.

[01:05:14] What I don't know is, do they have to keep the stick on fire for the whole race to win, surely — I'm not sure, but I'm all in for this, I love this. The other thing I love — that would be a challenge, you've got to think of it this way, you have to finish the race before the wick burns out, or the fuel, whatever's on your torch — gasoline, whatever's in there. The other thing I love about this, in a world where

[01:05:44] we can no longer, in Australia, which is a country where I think we've gone too far on making things safe — this is a dangerous race, there's an element of danger to it. This is in Belgium — I just saw the back end of it, and they're crazy. Have you seen their cyclocross? They're nuts, they think — we think bike riding, we've got to have a criterium course with some bumps in it. They literally just pick out the most muddy trail, put hurdles

[01:06:16] in the middle of it, whatever, their cyclocross racing is just another level, no wonder they can handle bikes. So I like the idea that there's a little bit of danger to this race, you still have to be able to run, and there's also a danger element because everyone's carrying a burning stick. I'm on board with that, I like it. Now you touched on Contiki a bit earlier on — I'll play the first bit of this clip because I know we're getting a bit on time, but I think you sent this to me, right, it's around the need for having a third space, a different way of looking

[01:06:46] at why run clubs are trending and stuff, so I'll play the first bit of the clip: 'Can we talk about how everyone is obsessed with third spaces this year? If you're not aware, having a third space is something different than work or home — like a coffee shop, a gym — I think this is more than a trend, this is that post-pandemic collective craving for...' — look, that's enough, because I don't want to hear all the rest of it, but that's just someone saying, right, they're marketing, they're putting it in a different space, that's it. Hey, the reason all this is

[01:07:16] trending is people want a third space outside their home and work, and run clubs represent that for a lot of people right now — it's what's motivating people to go to the run club, that's right. And I think we'll start — you talked about the trend of the stickers, the half marathon and marathon stickers and tattoos, and whether it might catch on — I think this is something we'll see, I think this is marketing, brands in the run space, the athletic space, will start to

[01:07:48] head in this direction, where rather than just having a physical bricks-and-mortar shop front where they sell their product, it merges into a space where — yep, you can buy stuff, but you can also work, sit and do your work, have a coffee, it's where you'll start your runs from. I think I could see that sort of concept store starting, if it doesn't already exist — and it may do — I can see one of those starting in Australia this year. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it exists

[01:08:18] in some shape or form, probably not perfectly like that. I wouldn't want to be the one taking the risk on the investment to start that, though. A brand like LSKD is the exact sort of brand I could see doing it — they've already got a business venture and it's an add-on. Right, it's an add-on, but I could see an LSKD space opening up — not even a store, an LSKD run space — where they've got their bricks-and-mortar stores where you can go and buy their products, but now this is a place where their run clubs will start out

[01:08:49] of, you can buy their stuff there if you want, but you can also sit down for the day and have a coffee, some people might work remotely from there — it's that Barry's vibe brought to Australia. Well, unfortunately cycling are ahead of the game here, because this exists in cycling. Does it? Yep — brand's brick-and-mortar store has a cafe, group rides meet there, and then you've got the coffee at the same spot. There you go — well then it's definitely going to happen, there's my prediction for Australia this year, that's one of your predictions for this year, and that was off the back of

[01:09:20] earlier on, talking about this whole third space and travel thing — yeah, Contiki jumped on the wagon and are showing their — well, they're partnered — I like this as well, they're partnered with Unfit Running, which is a Brisbane-started running club, an Australian one. OK yeah, I didn't do my research on this, Unfit Running, I'm pretty sure is a Brisbane-born run club, which I ran with —

[01:09:53] the first time I moved up here, I went out and ran with these guys once in Brisbane, and I can't remember, apologies, I can't remember the name of the fella who started this, but the way this run group started — apologies to any Unfit Running members if I get some of this wrong — my understanding is they started during COVID, and what they did was start as a way to support local business, so it was actually a benevolent agenda — that we're going to finish these runs at a

[01:10:27] local cafe, a different, changing local cafe, to support them, so we'll bring you X amount of business at the end of each run, we'll buy your beer, we'll buy your coffee, whatever it is — yep, we're getting a run out of it. And it's never — it's not an elite run club, not a high-performance run club, it's a social run club. And now they've continued it — they run on the Gold Coast, they run in Brisbane, their Instagram tells me they also run in Sydney as well, I can see on their Instagram they were down at the Burleigh swim-run.

[01:10:58] So there, and now they've partnered with Contiki — it's official, they've partnered with the travel agent Contiki to launch their new run club trips in Europe. So now Contiki will be running tour packages through Europe that have running components built into the programme — run and party. Well, I suppose they're probably — do they still party? I fully imagine they still party, Contiki by its very nature, as a business, is about

[01:11:29] fun and celebration and partying, whilst travelling. And now they're just adding a run element to it, and I think it'll work — I think it's very popular, Run The World is what it's called, so good luck to them. How good, how good, here we go. How long we going, we're going to be done — yeah, it's been a lot of interesting stuff. Now, please, if you've got more running-specific questions, send them in, because

[01:11:59] I will fire them at this man who has that much elite experience — we always love it when people get involved with questions directly, so send them all in. And as we mentioned a bit earlier on, there's some fun things happening and building around In The Beginning, there's some stuff in the works — Courtney's bringing all his experience to this and I'm just dancing out the front. So we're hoping to have some really fun things to announce soon, but until then, stay tuned and we'll see you next week. See you next week.