EP14 - RISE OF THE STRAVA MULE

[00:00] In the beginning, at 14, we're back. Hi, Courtney. We're back. What a week — Christmas just around the corner, exciting. Holy crap, it is. Now I've got to — I'm going to start with a confession. Oh, we talked about headphones and having two headphones in, and etiquette and all of that. Well, I was the wanker in the forest yesterday. What are we doing? So I rocked up to the forest — it's been raining, it's been pouring, right? And as I pulled up in my car, I got out, and I saw one of my

[00:33] mountain bike mates, and he's like, why are you out of the forest so early? He said, mate, there's water everywhere, can't really ride, it's a nightmare. And I'm like, perfect for running so I can get in the singles by myself. Yeah — two headphones in, I'm running down a track just in my own world. I look up and there's an old guy on the side on his mountain bike, just shaking his head at me. Mate, I got the evil eyes at me and I thought, oh no,

[01:05] I'm that guy. Anyway, I thought, how do I get out of this? So I had a chat to him and said, mate, I didn't expect anyone to be in here in the morning. Of course he said, my friend's coming — there's another guy behind me. I got both headphones out at that point and put them in my pocket and said, oh, I ran into someone and I didn't think anyone would be on a mountain bike. You know what his reply was? Pussies. Nothing like the old guy giving you the stink eye. But that is to anybody out there, because inevitably, as

[01:35] these tracks and trails and paths get busier and busier, just deal with it. Don't get frustrated — because I know there would have been other people who would have been in that situation who would have run off and might have had a terse word with the old bloke for giving them the stink eye. Everyone's out there doing stuff. Just talk to each other about these little dramas. And if you're running single trails, don't have two headphones in. Yeah, I'm learning with what we do. Mate, you can talk yourself out of anything. You can talk yourself out of

[02:06] it. But I was that guy — that was my confession. Hey, you know what that is? That's hands-up accountability, and that's what we're about here in the beginning. Now the interesting thing about today's chat is that — and we've got lots to get to — you and I are coming in at very different frequencies, to use a motivational term. We're coming in at very different energy levels. So tell us why you're in such a great space. Well, I'll get into my week a little bit later, but I've just come home from a run

[02:36] down at Pizzey Park, the local athletics track — Gold Coast Run Co. I've had an improvement again today in my threshold — a 20-minute threshold. Yeah, the heat — it's been a lot nicer running this morning, so that's definitely got something to do with it. But I'm over that little bit of a hump where I was going backwards for a few weeks. There was a group of five young bucks running along, and I'm the old guy at the back, easy as. And I said to one of the young guys at the end, what have you been doing for 5K lately?

[03:07] And he said 14:51, and I'm like, oh, here we go. Reckon I can slide under 16 minutes — as long as I'm around that, back down in the fifteens, I'll be happy. This smile — ear to ear — sums up how you're talking about your running at the moment. Now, with all that excitement, just give me yours, because I couldn't be further from the other end of the spectrum right now. And I think, interestingly, when I walked into your house this morning and you were literally

[03:39] buzzing — you'd just come back from this great session — I came in completely shoulder-slumped. I'm in a running hump at the moment. I went for a run down in Adelaide where I was away with some friends, and it went okay, it was alright. And then I came back here to the Goldie and tried to go for a run yesterday. I got two or three Ks into it and I just stopped, and I can't tell if it's — well, I know it is — it's a combination of

[04:11] physically — like, I've been doing some gym sessions as well, so the legs are a bit sore and all the rest of it. But also I've got all these things going on. I'm finding it difficult to switch off from work, even though we're on radio break — we've got a new show coming out, so I'm finding it really difficult to switch off my brain about this new show and getting things organised. It's obviously Christmas, so the kids are at home and you want to keep them entertained, and now my wife's on holidays as well. So it's like, well, I want to be putting in some quality family time and doing some stuff with

[04:43] them. But then I've got this show going on, I've got some stuff with some mates going on that I need to deal with. After we finish recording, all these things jump into my brain, and it's the sort of environment where normally a nice run would clarify some of this and help me clear it all out. And I just can't get — I've just got no motivation to trot at the moment. So I'm battling. We've said this before — stress is stress. It doesn't matter where the stress is coming from. It can be work, it can be

[05:15] family, it can be running — but often it's the mental stress that's actually harder than the physical stress, it really is. And a good mate of mine, Benny the doc — same thing, he's having a bit of trouble, but it's the stress, I reckon. I said to him, mate, it's all the things going on. And it's this time of year too, with Christmas — everyone's got a bit more time on their hands, you've got family, you're trying to tie up loose ends at work so you don't have to think about it over Christmas, and it all adds up. And where it then shows

[05:46] often is in an injury, while running, which is the one thing that's supposed to help you. So it's Catch-22. So I guess what I'd say to anybody out there — it's okay to be feeling like this at the moment, and if you need to just ride it out with some slower runs, shorter runs or whatever, do. Just get out the door — and if it turns into a walk, that's fine as well. Can I put a bit of a bow on my woe-is-me? I might have suffered maybe the most

[06:16] embarrassing — you talk about running injuries — I might have suffered the most embarrassing athlete injury ever. I've bruised my foot, and I think the way I've done it is my mum's foot massager — setting it too high and having my feet in there too long, because I was staying with them back in Adelaide and I love a foot massage. They've got one of those where you just put your feet straight into it, and I probably

[06:49] had them in there for upwards of half an hour. And now I've had to get out of all the carbon-plated shoes — the Adidas, the Salomons, whatever — I can't run in them at the moment. I'm back to the Novablast 'cause I just need that extra foam cushioning, 'cause my foot's so sore from this stupid massage machine. Right, sounds like you were exactly where we began this podcast — we've got a few things you've gotta sort out. Let's sort them out — good time of year to sort them out, and nothing a lot of food

[07:19] can't fix. Yeah, exactly, maybe. What's been going on with you all week? My week — it's been pretty — when we caught up last Thursday, I can't even remember what you were doing, whether you'd gone down to Adelaide yet. But the good thing is I've tied up — generally across all the different work things I get up to — I've tied that up nicely for the year, which is probably the

[07:50] other reason I'm so excited today. One, I'm looking forward to putting a little bit more time into what we're doing here. But also, I'm in control of my days to kind of do what I want to do. But running's been going really well. I've always talked about this consistency thing, right, and you're going to hear that like a broken record as long as we do this, because it's so true. This week I've done just the simple things — got out for an hour run, just got through it. It's been hot — it's been weird.

[08:20] The humidity's been — I think it was, I finished one run and it was 98%. It was pretty much spitting at that point. But even yesterday morning with the rain, it was still just — running an hour-five in the forest was just zapping. But just the consistency of getting the job done every day — and I came up today and felt like I started a 20-minute run. So, for context for those listening, you know I always

[08:50] try and run — whether it's threshold or tempo, whatever you want to call it — I try and keep my heart rate around that 153 beats as a good guide, so that way I can compare week to week. Today we started off — it's been wet, so we run across the grass as well, and my brother reminded me you can get a few extra seconds because you're slopping through the grass — 3:25s to begin with, dropping down to 3:22s, and heart rate really

[09:20] stable through that, just breathing well. So hopefully that's a sign of things to come. Everything's just working really well. But I've been talking about shoes, because I know everyone loves hearing us talk about shoes — I've been getting into my best work at the moment in the forest, because it's been sloppy, it's been muddy, it's been clay, and Salomon, who I run for, do this shoe, the Thundercross. Love the name, right? You know what we're talking about?

[09:50] Trail — yeah, that is a great name for a shoe. Come on, you can't make hard now — you've gotta make hard names for shoes — the Thundercross. So the Speedcross is obviously a Salomon shoe, pretty much the iconic trail running shoe — it was the original, before every other business started doing trail shoes. You had a few of those true trail-shoe brands — your Salomons, your Altras — and the Speedcross has been the one with really big lugs, great for mud, great

[10:23] for snow. The Thundercross is kind of the intermediate — it's got the tread, the really good mud tread from the Speedcross, but it puts it into more of a flexible, runnable shoe. It's probably my favourite shoe in the range, when it's runnable and usable — I've been getting a lot of use out of it, living up in the trails in that shoe at the moment. And you know what happens — everyone will go through this problem in running, it's another running problem we all have.

[10:54] You get a wet shoe, you put it in the car, you drive home and it stinks. You put it in the sun and there's still — if anyone's got a way to get rid of the smell out of these shoes after they're wet, and it's probably sweat as well — right? You've got a little setup at home, your makeshift drying rack, your quiver of shoes, as you call it, that sits there in your garage. I'm on the lookout for

[11:26] something like that, because I want to install a similar thing. How do you maintain your shoes? Well, they sit on that rack. I mean, obviously I'm lucky enough to get to try a lot of shoes, so I have a general rule — there's 12 shoes that fit on that rack, and at any one time I have the 12 shoes I'm using or wearing. Is that all you've got? No, I've got another cupboard somewhere — you haven't seen the storage. The ones I haven't worn too much

[11:58] or ones I've never really got into, I've got boots and a whole range of stuff in there. But the 12 you see when you walk in is my current quiver, that I'll change up — the Thundercross doesn't get a lot of use, because it's quite dry here, but it sits there because I know I'll use it. And then I've got a few other trainer-style shoes, a few street shoes — but that's the 12, that's how I work. But generally, and I don't have a better way to go about this, when it's like this weather and it's wet, whether it's raining

[12:29] or whether it's just pure sweat and your shoe comes home wet, I'll just stick the things in the sun and they dry. You don't wash the inners or anything? You've never thrown a pair of shoes in the wash? Never in a dryer — I wouldn't trust it. I'm not going to throw a pair of shoes in the dryer — I mean, I'm no expert, but I think the heat and the tumbling and everything else is going to wreck your shoe, I'd assume. I want to keep the structure of my shoe as good as possible, so that's why I just put

[13:00] them in the sun. I deal with the smell, but if there's a solution to the smell, I'd love to know. This is In The Beginning Podcast Instagram — we want people to send through their shoe maintenance hacks, because it sounds like we're both in need of some. And if anybody knows what damage putting your shoes in the dryer can actually do, feel free to flick that one through as well. But Courtney, I'm really glad to hear you're running well, because

[13:31] we love it when people love running. I know how frustrated you were getting with your body, you know, three or four months ago off the back of some injuries. I know how frustrated you were getting, and you were plateauing, as you saw it. The other reason I'm excited is because, Courtney Atkinson, I need to know — will you run a marathon in 2025? Well, it's looking like it — we're going to have some news soon, I hope, because —

[14:02] we're not going to jump to any conclusions just yet. But yes, pending — there are some big conversations going on in the background. But the reason I ask if you're going to run a marathon is because you're one of our greatest ever triathletes, and I want to know if you'll be motivated by the news that Alex Yee — for people who don't know, the Olympic gold medallist from England — has announced he's going to race the London Marathon next year. Now for context, the Olympic gold medallist this year in Paris, if you didn't watch the race,

[14:34] his kick finish to win gold over New Zealand's Hayden Wilde was one of the great racing tactics I've seen in triathlon. He let Hayden go — seemingly it was done. This is a guy with an incredible run, and the kick he gave, it must have been in the last 500 metres or so, was just unbelievable to watch. Hayden Wilde's face was just devastation. But now the next thing you're going to say is going to irk any

[15:05] proper runners who listen — because you could say, what's he targeting? Well, this is Alex Yee, the Olympic gold medallist in triathlon, who has a 5K PB of 13:26. He's got a 10K PB of 27:51 — so the guy can run. He's targeting somewhere between 2:07 and 2:10, which is Australian men's marathon elite territory, correct? That's what we're really talking

[15:37] about. Well, that's the — Andy Buchanan just broke the record, didn't he? First man to go under 2:07 for Australia, so 2:06 and a bit. So this is a guy for whom marathoning is not his sport — he's an athlete, let's not get that mixed up — but in his first marathon he's going to try and basically touch the Australian record. Well, triathletes have been known to talk up some fast run times and a few other things, but you can't hide in this — and nah, Alex, he's the real deal, right? In his off-season, he runs

[16:08] 5K track races with the best in the UK, and he's definitely not the best 5K runner in the UK, but he's definitely in the mix and can go and perform with them. So this is definitely not out of the realm — and it's exciting seeing how they mix it up. That would be one of the greatest — because he obviously races for Great Britain — that'd be one of the greatest British marathon runs if he can achieve that. Not the record, because I think it'll be similar to here — very similar to Australian running at the moment,

[16:40] 27 is quick. But the great thing with triathlon is when you're stepping up from shorter-distance running to, I suppose, a marathon distance of two hours, that's a step up for runners, right — they come through the mile, the 5K, the 10K, and build to the marathon as the longer distance they'll do. Triathletes do that every day, if not longer. Alex will be spending four and a half hours on a bike during the week, so to come back and run a two-hour

[17:11] effort, in a way, he's coming down in distance — not in a perfect world, because he's got to do it all running, but you see what I'm saying — his aerobic base is a big advantage. Plus riding a bike, there's so much glute work there — his strength from the bike will also be a big asset in the marathon. Phil Clayton did a lot of work with him — a lot of swimming work ahead of the Paris Olympics this year. Interesting, because he obviously overran Hayden Wilde at the Olympics. The 70.3 World

[17:42] Championships for triathlon were on at Taupō on the weekend. I went out to the forest for a run and was kind of watching the live feed to see how Hayden went. He got off the bike with the lead group, ran out of transition first, has half a marathon to run, and he's ripping it up — got about a minute-and-a-half lead. I shut the phone off, went running, thought nothing of it. When I popped out of the forest, I ran into a couple of guys who said, did you happen to see the tracker? And I said, yeah, Hayden's got it in the bag —

[18:12] and when Hayden ran off, he blew up again. Second again — so quickly. I mean, we've both — as if we can talk, we can't do better. Like, it's just crazy — twice this year he's set himself up at a pace he thought was achievable and then faltered along the way. So if you're Hayden, looking back at the World

[18:43] Championships for the half — the 70.3 — and the Paris Olympics, in both races your strategy has let you down. Your body hasn't let you down, your strategy has. What are you saying to yourself? There's two ways you can look at it — the first thing is he's got balls, he gives it a go, and you can only learn from that, right? The worst thing is you nearly got there, you failed, and then you come back stronger. The other way to look at it is pacing — maybe being a bit

[19:16] optimistic on the pacing. But look, without knowing the full story, you don't know if he was a bit crook, or there could be a range of factors. It's been really hot — I'm assuming Taupō would have had heat at the moment too, not obviously Queensland heat, but it would be a similar situation where they'd expect cooler weather and it's been hotter. All those things affect your pacing over that distance. Quick — we'll move on from this, because I think this is something we're going to monitor into next year as well, given the best triathlete in the world has gone out and just thrown down the gauntlet and

[19:48] planted a flag. How do you think he'll be received by the marathon community? I think those who know him — so the UK marathon community — will 100% embrace it. I think the semi-pro community, though — perhaps those runners that Alex is going to immediately jump ahead of,

[20:18] correct — not just in the UK, but across the globe, who have something to protect. I think across sports these days — like, a good example is Tour de France riders actually going to Hawaii Ironman and racing, and not being able to convert to win, right — I think there's a real respect there across sports now. Obviously in multi-sport you're never going to be as good as the individual sports — that's why you're in multi-sport. Like, hey, I'm the first person

[20:50] to say that, right — you're average at three sports, or very good average at three sports, which makes you able to win something you can't win in the individual sport. I mean, that was my life, right, so let's get that out of the way. But why I say it'll irk the semi-pros more is — they'll jump them, but they're also protective of their space, that they're the individuals who are that good. And you're going to see someone who's across three sports come across and arguably go right to elite level.

[21:22] It maybe blows up too, who knows — but it's great, he's given it a shot. Kristian Blummenfelt, one of the best in the business, has noticed — but he might have slightly backtracked on his claim to go and win the Tour de France. I'd say he's probably backtracked on that, but he's looking at professional cycling. Cameron Wurf is the best example, though — the Aussie Olympic rower — lightweight sculler for Australia at the Olympics, went on to ride for multiple years as a professional.

[21:53] I think he raced for the Cannondale team, ended up at Sky — still races for Sky as a domestique, right up to the biggest races, the main Grand Tours. And then, I think he's top ten in Hawaii this year. So it's definitely possible to go across all those sports, and there are some guys who do this really well in endurance. But I'll reiterate — I think at the elite level now there's a real respect across all sports, because you've got to specialise in each of them, and you've got to specialise in multi-sport to be the best at

[22:24] that as well. But it's probably that next level down where this is really — good for all the punters like me, the mud runners out there listening to this. It should make you feel good, because it's not a case of not specialising early enough — there's just an elite bunch of humans in our world who are physiologically capable of doing this stuff in any code, right, whether it's the Olympics or the Tour de France or triathlon. These are special aliens who live amongst us, and we should just enjoy them being around us. But in reality, you're the

[22:56] jack of all trades, master of none, as well. That's me — I can say that now, after 20 years of being in that space. Let's leave that for the moment. We're talking about pacing, and Hayden blowing up, and can Alex do this — so this week I thought, AI training. We talk a lot about coaches, so I jumped into — I just talked about wanting to get my 5K down, and I'm

[23:27] running a little bit better at the moment. So I jumped into ChatGPT just to see how good the old AI would go at training. I said, give me an eight-week training plan to get me to run a 16-minute parkrun. It's not so good, that's the word — really. Not everyone's going to understand this pace, but it did suggest that eight weeks is ambitious but achievable for an experienced runner with a solid fitness base.

[23:57] So I'd consider myself that. It's designed for someone who can already run 5K around 18 to 19 minutes, which I can definitely do at the moment. This is where the catch comes in, because I reckon there'll be people sitting there going, well, I can run an 18 to 19, I can get to 16 with AI in eight weeks. I can tell you right now — no. So AI is wrong in this case. Pretty much, it goes into — running a 16-minute 5K

[24:27] is going to take you 3:12 per kilometre pace. It reckons you need to do speed work, tempo runs, long runs and recovery, which is right, so it's pulled a good weekly structure. But this is where it gets interesting, because it tells me I'm only going to have to run five days a week, with two days of rest or CrossFit. So it thinks I can run a 16-minute 5K off five runs. And you don't think you can achieve that?

[24:57] I think with my background — if the cross-training I did on those other two days was like long bike rides, I'd probably be able to manage that. But for the average person who's just a runner and doesn't have 20 years of background in professional triathlon — no way. Not unless you're very, very talented. Five runs only, to go from an 18-or-19-minute 5K to 16 in eight weeks — that's kidding itself.

[25:29] Look, I won't spend too much time on this, but I thought it was a good indication, because there are a lot of people out there thinking — we've talked about it, get proper help, but I can just go to the internet and it'll tell me what to do. This is AI telling you what to do, but I'll guarantee you a lot of the online coaches out there who don't have the expertise are probably pumping the same stuff out. When you put this in the run sheet for the week, my brain lit up because this is so interesting. And you just talked about trying

[26:01] to get down to a 16-minute 5K, which for me is unfathomable. But I jumped on ChatGPT — and we talked earlier in the pod about the idea of run schools — has your coach been to a run school and got the qualifications to be teaching your program? What run club or run coach would you go to, and would it be based on recommendations, qualifications or something else? I've told you often I'll jump online

[26:34] and go, give me a run session for this. So I jumped onto ChatGPT and said, build me an eight-week programme to run a sub-40-minute 10K. Are you happy with the results? Well, I was, until you just said what you said — because I look at the programme it's pumped out and it kind of looks pretty similar to the stuff I'd been looking at previously.

[27:05] It does look similar, but there are a few things in here — like, let me have a look. I also pumped in, give me a 12-week plan to run a sub-three-hour marathon — I think that one's a dangerous one. Okay, just going on what I'm seeing from what it pumps out for wanting to run a 5K, where it got interesting to me is it's obviously pulling a lot of information

[27:35] from a lot of different sources, or maybe it's just copying something it's seen on the web, and you don't know where that expertise has come from. Where it talks about starting to do race-pace simulations on a Saturday to aim for a 17-something-or-faster in week six — but then it's telling me on a Tuesday to do 8x400s at that 3:12 pace with a 90-second rest. Well, you're going to have to do your 400 reps quicker than your

[28:06] 5K pace to be able to achieve a 16, with a 90-second rest — I can tell you right now, if you're only able to run a free 400 in that time with that much rest, you're not gonna be running 16 minutes. And then even to the point at the beginning, it's saying the first long run — in week one it says 10 to 12K at an easy pace. I just don't think many people are gonna be able to do that type of volume and get out and run a 16. It says to do

[28:37] your long runs for this sub-three-hour plan on Saturdays too, which I'm not — but we're talking about specific examples we punched into it. And I can guarantee most people listening right now will, after they finish their run, probably jump on ChatGPT if they haven't already and start playing around with a time or distance goal they've got in mind for their running. But I'm curious, because we know

[29:07] — I don't want to call it rubbish, but we know what sort of ill-informed programmes are out there, being pushed onto first-time runners or beginner runners as professional, properly-researched, tailored programmes. I hadn't thought that some of these people might have just been using AI to write these

[29:38] programmes. I think a lot of people are utilising — well, AI is one thing, but I also think they're just utilising online resources. Looking at this, and knowing some of the programmes I've looked at, I've got no doubt there are people out there running run clubs or other things who are pushing some of this onto their community. And then they've just

[30:09] ripped it straight off ChatGPT. I mean, everyone should just think about it — common sense often prevails. But ChatGPT has removed the need for common sense, in a way — we don't need common sense anymore when we've got this thing. That's true, and it's cheap, it's free. So I'm not saying it's wrong, but what I did notice — I was scrolling through Instagram last night trying to

[30:39] find some interesting things for us to have a chat about, and it just reinforced to me again, just seeing a random reel — not people I follow — some of the run advice, and the person offering that advice — well, we talked last week about how looks don't mean they can't run, but some of the people offering it, I'm saying, you're offering proper run advice there? I can guarantee you can't do

[31:10] what you're saying. I can guarantee you cannot do what you're saying. So sometimes I think it'd be nice to go, you gave that advice — where did that experience come from? Why don't you go and prove it yourself first? That's the expertise. This all comes back to — it's a side effect of where running is at right now. It's this world in which there are experiences to be had, there's money to be made,

[31:40] there's opportunities to be seized upon. And as a result, we're seeing all these podcasts, influencers, programmes, clubs — all these things pop up. And the side effect is that some of these things might be dangerous. That's the reason I don't like giving advice — I've said this to you before — to others I'll say what works for me, but there's no guarantee that's going to work for you, because different background, different talent, different

[32:11] genetics, all those different things. You really need to work with someone, understand them, get to know them, and do all that before you can start giving advice. But like I said, there's always a place to start — the 5K, we reiterate the 5K apps, 5K run — a few of the 5K running apps are great to start, and reach out to people who've kind of experienced it. It's exactly the same thing you talk about when we

[32:41] talk about shoes — go and try them. Don't commit, don't go all in on a 12-week programme for a club you've just signed up to. Don't jump in on what ChatGPT is telling you for an eight-week programme. Just try some stuff — that's the best way to enjoy your running and get more out of it. So it was a bit of — I liked it. It was good, it was good to see, because I'd never really looked at it that way. Now, off the back of that, we're talking about times of

[33:13] 16 minutes, and you said, oh, I'd dream of 16 minutes, but I'm in that 19. Yeah, 19 is about me. Okay, so — people are listening to our Clydesdale-style chatter. Yes. So the heavy category in marathons — this is something that exists at Noosa Triathlon, there's the Clydesdale and the Athena category, for people over 100kg. And we are the champions of the idea of embracing this category for

[33:44] marathon running, not as a negative — we've talked about this, it's a celebration of what you're doing at your size. So off the back of those discussions, one of my good friends — Brett Carter, he actually helped when I was doing an Olympic campaign, he was one of my swim coaches, a good triathlete in his day, a hard worker — they called him the bulldog, because he was just — and he went on to win some Ironmans, amazing stuff.

[34:14] He's a psychologist now, and when I ran into him the other day he started telling me about — chemistry and physics, went right over my head, chemistry and physics and a few other things — he's just one of those guys, curious, smart, and knows his sport. He came to me this week and, bear with me on this, he's come up with an idea in this Clydesdale category, but it can work across everyone — measuring your run ability with watts. So when you've got a

[34:45] power metre on a bike, you can also measure your watts running — and your watts are affected by how much you're putting out, but depending on your weight. Let me get this right — this is my science for the week that I don't understand, so I'm going to read it out. He's come up with an interesting idea regarding the Clydesdale discussion — he's been calculating the average watts for a 5K for two athletes.

[35:15] Athlete One weighs 72kg — that's me — and runs a 5K in 17 minutes. Athlete Two weighs 65kg and runs a 5K in 16:30. So Athlete Two runs 30 seconds quicker. It works out that Athlete One has to produce 3.46 watts per kilo to do that time, and Athlete Two has to produce only 3.22 watts per kilo to

[35:48] produce his 16:30. Therefore, Athlete One's performance could be considered actually better, because he's producing more watts. I get it, it's good old physics — but we can do some comparisons here. Now this opens up a wormhole, because literally you're going to get guys who are a bit heavier saying, in layman's terms — I'm heavier, I'm actually a better runner

[36:19] than you, because of my weight — I can run a 17 at your weight where you can run a 16:30, but I'm actually running more effectively, I'm producing more watts. What's the point? What's the purpose of that research? Well, I guess there is no point, because the lighter guy is going to win regardless. So the point is you need to lose weight — that's how that sort of research

[36:50] just gives people an excuse. That sort of research is how we arrive at participation medals, Courtney — that's how we end up with everybody getting a ribbon, because based on this metric, you're the best. No — based on this metric you're the best, so it's — it's so interesting, Liam, because a race is a race, and whoever crosses the line first wins. You know my position, my competitiveness, and I've just presented the anti-competition argument — I've given you the excuse. But we were going to do this later,

[37:22] I'm going to jump to it now — listen to this, this is Gary Vee, some people might know him from the internet, but I want to know your thoughts. This encapsulates it — I'll show you a winner, and every parent who goes up to their kid and says it doesn't matter, it's just a game, should be punched in the face. Competition is one of the best things on earth, and we've gotten really bad, on the softer side of things, at understanding it — it's coddling people, because if

[37:52] you're successful in sucking the competition out of a six-year-old for 12 years, you've put indifference on a pedestal. And what you've done is you've taken someone who was destined to do something, and you've put a kid into a place of thinking things don't matter — and when you don't think anything matters, or anything's worth anything, you go down a very dangerous road. Competition is one of the great traits in society, and we must at all costs stop demonising it. What do you reckon, Liam?

[38:23] I like some of it, I don't like other parts of it — I knew this one would tickle you a bit. I agree with him that competition is really important. I was a really competitive kid, and I loved competition — me and my mates could turn anything into a competition, right, and now as a middle-aged bloke I'm still competitive about

[38:53] things, but I think it's balanced — I've got a healthy balance of it. What he's saying about it being demonised amongst children, I think you've got to be — that's a bit aggressive. I think you've got to be really careful, because you can't tell anybody how to raise their kids. The only children I'm concerned about moulding are my own

[39:23] children, right — my wife and I are doing that in our own way. And this idea of a blanket rule — I do think some kids need to be shown that it's not life or death if they lose something at a young age. There are so many more important things within sport that kids can learn, not just winning and losing.

[39:53] Developing a competitive edge might be important to them, and you can help hone that at the right time and place — you can show them the importance of striving to win. But there are lessons from kids' sport that are so much more important — learning to play with others, learning to be a team player, learning to share, learning how to lose — I think that's a really important skill to learn, and the idea that —

[40:25] well, that's what he's hitting on, it's about learning to lose, and it's about participation medals — that was the context of it. So you said it's important for your kids, you want to mould your kids — but what happens in a world where you're not controlling everything that comes onto your kids? So you're in a position where your kids achieve something they should be proud of, but then the 20 other kids who didn't do that get the same outcome.

[40:59] You're not in control of that, right, and I think — he did it in an aggressive way, and I use that for discussion, and I do think there's a balance. However, I also think that eventually in life, life's a competition — you win or you lose, you walk into a workplace, no one gives you a participation trophy. No, well —

[41:33] everybody listening to this has just thought of someone in their office or workplace, guaranteed — no matter where you are, you've heard that phrase, and somebody's jumped into your brain right now. I've always loved the phrase — and again, the thing about the internet is that short and sweet wins. If you can wrap something up — it's marketing, it's sales — if you can wrap it up into a nice bow with a tagline on it, it's what sticks,

[42:05] isn't it. But there's nuance to it, there's context, there's perspective, all these things you need to take into consideration. I've always loved the phrase, you win or you learn — that's a good one, you win or you learn. But you also win or you lose. Yeah, you do — they go hand in hand. They do go hand in hand, but to take that all-or-nothingness away from it, right — for most people out there, the majority — the very

[42:37] nature of competition means most people will lose. The majority of people will lose. Generally only one person wins — because even in team sport it's a 50/50, but for anything that's not a team sport — races, running races, swimming races, anything like that — the majority of people will lose. And if you make it win or lose, it's a fundamentally negative conclusion. Whereas if you go with win

[43:07] or learn, the idea is that every time I lose, I'm learning something — I'm learning about why I didn't win. The best winners do that, because they fail over and over until they get it right. We talked about Hayden — that's the perfect example, he's not winning. I actually saw a photo of him on the podium, and someone had made a meme of it because he's literally just like a kid who's

[43:40] lost and spitting the dummy at school. But he'll learn from that and move on, and that will mould him. You know what, mate, we always agree — we come from very different spots on this, and you haven't whacked the competitiveness out of me completely yet, at that elite level. But that did resonate — I mean, it was aggressive, but it did resonate with me, because in the end it doesn't matter whether you're in sport or whatever — you have to learn that, you have to learn to be able to

[44:11] accept that at some point there will be a winner and you're going to lose out sometimes — that's probably where I'm going with it. And if you're resilient enough, you take it on the chin and move on. And to take it back to the kid conversation we started with, which that audio alluded to — if kids are taught the whole way through that even if you don't win, you'll still be looked at the same, no — the realities of life are what they are, and kids need to understand that. I just don't

[44:43] think they need to understand it when they're six, right — that's all I'm saying. To Gary's point, I don't think we need to beat kids over the head with the harsh realities of life — let them find it out in due course. The important thing is — let's get off that, it was a good conversation though, right? What I — if you want to move on to the kids thing, one thing I'm learning with my kids is I probably didn't do a lot of team sports, and that drove me

[45:15] to be such an individualised, selfish human being. That's why I'm such a good — no, that's why I'm such a grumpy so-and-so when I'm not running well. You are a remarkably well-adjusted solo athlete. Thank you. No, I mean that, because often — well, I lost a lot, Liam. You learnt a lot? I learnt a lot because I lost a lot. But with the kids, what I'm saying is I think the importance of — not just, I mean, I did this, playing all sports and working out what you love versus

[45:47] what your parents love is a big thing. Kids being able to experience everything, and then whether they find something they're talented at and love, or whether they just love being part of teams, or whether they love endurance sports, or adrenaline sports — they've got to find it out for themselves. So variety as a kid is something I'm a big believer in — generalisation, not specialisation. And then when they find what they're passionate about, back them into it. You can trademark that one, right? I think that's been stolen already. Okay, well, let's

[46:19] move on a little bit. Can I throw something out at you? Yep — because I literally found this as I was walking in your gate today, and I laughed. Have you got that bit of audio there? So this is — here we are, this crazy running man, at just around 8,500K in the last hundred days, but the job's not done yet. The goal was always 10,000K, so I want to find a way to finish it off with another challenge. How are you gonna do it? I'm gonna be attempting to break

[46:49] the — currently held record for the fastest 1,000 miles. Now, this is a young man by the name of Jack Hanley, who I'd never heard of before, and the algorithm has served him up to me. He's currently attempting to run 10,000 kilometres, and what he's started today, on the day of recording, is attempting to break the world

[47:19] record for the fastest 1,000 miles. Now, if that sounds familiar, it's because it's what Nedd Brockman attempted a month ago in Sydney. And here we are, a month on from Ned's unsuccessful attempt, and someone else is trying to break this record. He's also copied Ned's hairstyle — got a very similar haircut — and again, he's raising money for charity. Shout out to Jack, and I wish him all the best — he's going to attempt to break

[47:50] the record. It's a hell of a lot of running — I don't think he does it, Courtney. Are we being respectful enough to world records? Look, the reason this record exists is because it was such an incredibly hard thing to do, and I don't know a lot about — Yiannis, was it? Yeah, but he was basically a professional runner, wasn't he. Look, I don't think we're giving enough credit to this guy.

[48:21] It's not my area of expertise — this ultra, multi-day running, that type of thing — but I listen to the guys who I see as experts in this space, who've proven themselves the best in this space, and they simply say these guys are all kidding themselves. And that rubs people up the wrong way — they are kidding themselves, and what they're doing is leveraging this idea that they can break a world record to make money — and they're making money for good reasons,

[48:51] so don't get me wrong there — but they're leveraging something for the wrong reasons. They've got no business even talking about this guy's world record — and that's from listening to the expertise of guys who really do know, who are rare. So let's put it into perspective — I want to put it in golfing terms. I've just pulled up Yiannis Kouros' Wikipedia page — the sheer amount of gold medals in worldwide races that

[49:22] this man has — he was the Kelly Slater of ultra running, right. And now you've got guys who aren't even professional runners saying, I'm going to break the world record. I just talked about Kelly Slater — it's like yourself picking up a surfboard, and in two years' time you're saying you're going to go and win Pipe. I'm not joking — this is the kind of difference we're looking at, in golfing terms — I heard it put nicely the other day: I'm a 15-handicap and I'm just talking about going and

[49:56] winning the Masters next week. That's what's happening. So, good on anyone going out there and doing things for the right causes — not having a go there — but please stop trying to push the idea that you're in any shape or form a runner of that standard. These guys are clearly runners, and if he's achieving it, if he's running 10,000 clicks, that's incredible. And if he's setting

[50:26] out to run the 1,000 miles up and down the Tan, that heel of the Tan is going to become real nasty, I reckon — it's two days in. But it's disrespectful to runners for whom that is their profession. It's disrespectful to the everyday person out there who's just seeing this on news.com.au and thinking, wow, amazing — because they don't have the information. But let's put it in context —

[50:56] it's being disrespectful to professionals in this space, and let's leave it at that. Nicely summed up, Courtney — good luck to Jack Hanley, by the way. Okay, let's get into some more fun stuff — the WTF segment, we're gonna have to put another one on. So, first one out of the gate — I'm not sure if you sent this one to me, but it's coming from the gaming world. We've got — Simon says, hands down, Simon says, hands down —

[51:27] run and place, run and place — Simon says run, Simon says stop, hands up, Simon says hands up — weave it around, wave it around, Simon says wave, Simon says stop, weave it around, wave it around, Simon says wave, Simon says run, Simon says stop, hands down. I love this — we've got grown adults, in a stadium, playing this. Let me check — here it is, it's a Ludwig stream. So I'm assuming he's got a couple of million followers, and they're playing live Simon Says.

[51:59] This is your mob too — this is a Red Bull event, it's a Red Bull athlete, I know — I do know Grace. I love this — I complained about kettlebell juggling last week, but I'm right here for Simon Says. I'm signing myself up. You're in? I'm in — with the Australian version, we should do it. And I'm only half joking — this is something I want to do on the radio next year.

[52:29] I think we shouldn't mention it yet, because we know Lutzi listens. Oh yeah, hey, Lutzi — no, leave it. For all the In The Beginning Podcast community out there — and I'm looking down the barrel of the camera as I say this — this is a verbally binding agreement that I will be allowed to do this on my radio show, not this year, next year — and if it pops up on Nova, Lutzi's bound by it. I love the idea — you can imagine, down at Burleigh or somewhere, Simon Says championships. I love it.

[53:00] Okay, so that's a tick, that's green-lit. Alright, second one — now, you loved our marathoner last week, so this one this week — there's a half-marathoner, this one this week, it's only a half-marathoner, and this one came from his name was Runner JMD, that's his Instagram handle. He ran a half marathon juggling — last week it was baking, this week we're juggling. This one I don't like as much as the baking, because he's running quite

[53:32] fast, I think — the thing about the baking last week was, you're going to try and jog whilst baking a cake, it's so insane, but I can't wait to see you try and do it. What did this guy end up running for the half marathon? Well, you can go and have a look — I've just brought up 1:17:49. That's impressive — that's really impressive, 1:17 is

[54:02] impressive running. Do you know what's more impressive? What if he ran a 1:08 without juggling? Again, this guy can clearly run — just run. You're not going to sell me on these, I'm out on that one. What do you reckon — this is obviously evolving — can you think of something that's the most idiotic thing someone's going to do in a marathon while they're running? Oh, I'm on the spot, Liam.

[54:32] The most idiotic thing — oh, this is a great game actually. If anyone else has got some good ones, we'll share them next week. But what's the dumbest thing someone's going to do running a marathon, or a half marathon? My mind's jumping to — you know what, let's get In The Beginning Podcast to slide into our DMs — what do you think is the most insane thing we're going to see somebody attempt to do whilst running a

[55:02] marathon or a half marathon? Do you know what would be more impressive than him juggling? Juggling swords, or juggling kettlebells. Alright, onto the next one — this one's not so much — I did see this on Instagram, but it's the Strava mule — have you heard of this? No? So when we're talking mule, it's kind of like the drug mule — there's this thing that's been going around about people

[55:33] paying someone to run the marathon with their phone, so that they can get the kudos on Strava of running quicker. People are paying other runners to run with their phone in a marathon so they can claim they've run the race quicker. I reckon I've got a couple of mates who would do this, yeah,

[56:04] but the mates of mine who'd do this aren't the sort to rub you up the wrong way just so they could claim a 2:48 or something — the mates of mine who'd do this, if suddenly a marathon or half marathon popped up on their Strava, I'd assume their phone had been stolen. Like, what do you mean, you've never run more than five kilometres in your life? They're doing this as a joke. Yes — if anybody's doing this, and if any legitimate runner — I'm not putting it past people, do you not have that much faith in the world?

[56:36] I do — there's some seriously — I mean, I only hear this through listening to runners chat, but the stuff that goes on even just around Strava crowns, and people riding bikes — yeah, so this is a more legit way of upping that ante, giving your phone to someone in the marathon to run. But the amount of stuff that goes on with the bikes, and 'I own this crown, I'm the quickest up here' — I mean, this Strava-crowns thing is a funny

[57:06] one, isn't it, because there's an Instagram account — I think it's called Stealing Crowns — that basically flies around the world trying to steal Strava crowns, basically sprinting the segments and getting the crowns. How much would I have to pay you to run with my phone in a marathon next year? Well, these Strava mule ideas — I charge per gram, and I charge heavily.

[57:36] It depends — depends how many jobs you're doing next year, Liam, depends how many MC gigs you've got. I don't — I do like the idea, because this brings to mind, for those who've never watched the TV show Suits, the main character would take the law exam for people and get them the score they wanted for money. It's the same thing — I like the idea that you, Courtney, could become a gun for hire next year — literally could be the Strava mule, and just run for people. But —

[58:07] that could be more lucrative than I ever was in my actual racing career, when I was losing them. The key for any potential customers out there is, if you're a 25-minute 5K parkrunner, don't get Courtney to run a 16-minute — you just want that 22-minute or 21-minute, incremental. It needs to be believable, that's how you don't get caught. And I imagine the drug mules out there are probably thinking the same thing. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Alright — what do you want to move on to? Let's do more audio —

[58:38] you've got some more audio? I've got — this one's going to create another discussion, and this is actually in the nightclub space, of all things, so we're really going to pivot here. This audio is actually Simon Beard, who's the Culture Kings founder — went to TSS, went to my school — not at my time, he's a bit younger, so I didn't know him, can't claim that one — but he is a runner. Is he? Yeah, so Braden shared this with us — he ran

[59:08] — so Braden — Simon ran the New York Marathon. Oh, nice. And after he finished, he booked in for a massage, and what he got was the evolution of the nightclub, without alcohol. So have a listen to this, and see what he says: 'Nightclubs are trending down — this is what I believe they're getting replaced with. I just ran the New York City Marathon on the weekend, and I booked a massage straight after it at this place called Bathhouse. Now, as soon as I walked down these LED, dark-nightclub-lighting stairs, and saw the game-

[59:42] changing aesthetic inside — Afrobeats, electronic music playing, super futuristic metal displays — I knew this was the future. Created such a cool vibe, and it was packed down there — hundreds of people between the different salt spas, the cold plunges, the massive 50-person sauna. Plus they even had this other furnace-style sauna, which was amazing. But one of its smartest moves — no phones allowed. I think this is going to continue as one of the biggest trends — phone-free activities. So much of cold-plunge-sauna-running, for example, has taken off in the last few years.'