EP 40 - FROM FROSTBITE TO FINISH LINES – RACE THE SUN & TRAIL RUNNING 101

[00:00] In the beginning episode 40 Courtney Atkinson, how are you? Oh, you know, we're here. We're here. That's what my that's the important thing. This is I wanted to start off to this EP today to talk about the fact that there's a lot of people out there who listen to this who probably listen to a bunch of different podcasts. Some of you might even host your own podcasts. But the interesting thing about podcasting is that I don't, I can't think of many people in Australia where it's their only gig. Even the big podcasts have

[00:33] got other work around it. Hamish and Andy, biggest podcast in Australia, biggest Australian podcast. Hamish and Andy both still host their own TV shows. Like there's podcasting is not yet anybody's real soul gig. Sure, they've got a few extras working for them though. But for you and I, this is very much it's the side gig, it's this, we've both got full time jobs this week is definitely the side. Gig and for you and for like I'm the radio show has been occupying it occupies a lot of

[01:06] my time every day, but it's there's been all this stuff around it that meant that I'm incredibly busy and then I'm actually travelling. If the weekend you're listening to this I'll be down in Sydney calling the Suns giants game so I'm travelling incorporating this. We've both got young families not been busy. You are coming off the back of having been the event director of Red Bull Race The Sun. Yeah, man, it went off. It was the best year we've done, 100%. It was, hey, on Sunday morning. So we were coming back from Tenterfield after the event. I was scrapped.

[01:40] Like scraping, literally scraping ice. I saw this. I saw this video you put up thick. Frost like, it was like I was in New Zealand, thick frost off the car and it was just crazy. So I got down to -3 overnight when they were running it was hard. But this will explain it better because I can sit here and I can bumble on but one of the one of the teams that came out was Black Sheep and a recycling brand. Black sheep. And a recycling brand. But then they also do, they're

[02:10] getting into running a bit more now, but this is so they brought a team out and got some great photos and that out there. And they this is what I said. You start at sunrise, no pomp, no ceremony, just a group of like minded crazies all filled with ridiculous the ridiculous belief that six of us were going to run through the day and night covering 350 kilometre ish, 350 kilometres and 7000 ish metres of elevation and somehow finished before the sun rose again. Welcome to Australia's toughest races all.

[02:42] I'm going to put a one of Australia's toughest race, Red Bull race The Sun. Our crew was mixed with strangers, misfits and absolute weapons all unsure if this was brave, stupid or both. We had a strategy to break the route into 30 minute segments. I bet you that one out the door really quick that yeah, they that went out the window fast. In the final eight hours we were all doing 100 metre sprints, trying to hold 245 kilometre pace. But this is the kind of race where pace and time don't tell

[03:13] the story. It's everything that happened in between that we'll remember forever. There were moments of absolute mayhem, courage, a literal Sprint finish. Nudged just into 5th place. They had a Sprint. For fifth. For 5th. After 24 hours of racing, it was a roller coaster of emotion, fatigue and negative. They said -4° At one point we were just saying fuck this, I'm going to cry. And then the camaraderie. The jokes get Dumber as the night goes on. They were pretty too much talking about chips and hot chips and gravy, but many of uncharacteristic yelling at the

[03:43] driver. Sorry, Alex, we were. We were pissing next to each other before the next person had to run. We didn't care who ran further, faster. We just cared who needed lollies, Red Bull or a bangin soundtrack. Well, we all became part runner, part crew, part family. The beauty of sport condensed into a 24 hour furnace. They beat the sun by 21 minutes. Wow. Beaten, frozen, grinning like idiots. That's it. That's so cool.

[04:13] Yep, that's so. I mean, I love that would, that pretty much is why we created this. There's your why. There's the why. There's your exact reaction. For that reaction and the fact that if someone post an event like that is prepared to write those sort of words, you know, you've done a good job. You know, as an event director, you've done a good job. Yeah, we the teams, we had one team came who were representing LSKD, drove from Sydney, 622 year olds from a run club, so not 20. 2 year olds. And when and when one of the

[04:44] young girls, I think it wasn't tenacious, it was the other young girl, she said to us before the race. And then my wife was standing there and she goes, I only never run 20K before. Do you think I'll be OK? And I'm like, oh, I honestly thought as they ran off, I went, all right, we're going to have a early withdrawal here. And you know what? They were the team. They missed beating the Sun by about 7 minutes, but.

[05:14] Absolutely stoked. She must have had some weapons around there. They were just 620 and the drivers too, so a couple of drivers who drive, but they all come up from Sydney and I'm like, you know, they're the types of teams that I'm to go. I never expected but. Do you know, it's funny because just hearing you talk, reading that message and hearing you talk about the feeling of that group on the radio show podcast we did a producer gives us a question of the day as a bit of an intro to the podcast every day. And one of the questions that I

[05:44] actually threw out at the top of the pod the other day was if you could go back to a moment in your life, not change anything, but just relive it because of the experience you had at the time, what would it be? Now? My answer interestingly, and I'll caveat this by saying, and you can think of yours, but I tell you mine, I'll caveat this by and if you're going for a run, it's an interesting exercise to go through to think about. You're not you can't change anything. You can't make any of it different but you're just reliving it. I my wedding day I'd was an epic

[06:15] party, a great day that I'd love to go back. I've had some some the Falls festival down in Lorne with some mates when I was younger was an amazing time as well that I'd love to. But what I settled on was Red Bull Defiance. You're right. Because it was a my wife and kids were there, so they came up and we had a holiday out of it. BI got to do it with my best mate, Ed, you know, but also it was an experience that it sort

[06:48] of embodies everything that I like doing now and the reason why I run and the reason why I like challenging myself now. I got that feeling at Red Bull. It's defiance was as tight as I've ever been in an event. And having that feeling mixed with having my best mate do it with me, go through it all with me and having all my family around to then experience the amazing part that is the Cassowary Coast afterwards. That's what I, that's what I, that's what finished on. That's what I finished on and. Not better than the wedding, but up there with. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn't about best thing, it was the thing you'd love to

[07:19] experience again. Not changing any of it. Yeah, I still remember after night one of defiance, lying in bed and just thinking, This is as tight as I've ever. People, because what would you have done the first? Day one was the whitewater raft into the how long did they run into the mountain bike ride into the obstacle course thing at the end? I think day one took us 9 or 10 hours. Yeah, right. So by the time you drive back from where we finished another three hours, oh it. Was yeah, it was a 12/15 hour

[07:50] day and I remember lying in bed and I was just thinking, this is as tight as I've ever felt. And the fact that I can remember that feeling, I can remember the feeling running down the beach on Mission Beach there with Ed, knowing that we're about to finish this thing. Those, all those feelings are still very front of mind if I try and think about them. Yeah. And that's what probably a lot of people get from both marathons, but Iron Men especially, I think they re re because you're out there so long and you're going through so many mental challenges. You really remember it as far as

[08:22] like actual where would I put myself in racing again, hands down. And it's similar to you. It's about the experience is China Adventure Racing, so teams are 4. Teams are four people and in the most random regional spots in China. I'm not even going to try and remember. Where the hell we were. Certainly you're not going to try and pronounce. I'm not going to try and pronounce it, but I don't even know it could. I don't even know which part of China we're in, but it was, it

[08:52] was out in the West of China, somewhere east of China. Obviously been there, but I was with who, I said often, Mendel and me through a lot of my adventure stuff. Richard Ussher, Elina Ussher, his wife. And then I've just kind of forget his name, but one of like the most hardcore New Zealand adventure races you've ever seen. He was like a diesel truck who just would put a tow rope on and climb us up the hill. But we were doing a four day adventure race. And I think I've said this before, I had just started getting into this type of like, let's say real adventure stuff.

[09:26] And I knew I was in for something 'cause I came from triathlon and I was running with Richard the day before along a footpath, warming up. And we just went out for, you know, usual 5K run or whatever. And we got to the end of the footpath into like a bit of a country stream or whatever, and I was ready just to turn around like he would. And he just jumps the fence and. Keeps running and I went. You know, Are you sure you're able to do this? And he's like, mate, come on, wait till you see what we're doing the next few days. Now to explain some of this race, it began with the four of us happening to pick up an old

[09:59] rickshaw basket full of 30 kilogrammes worth of rocks. Before you even got to your bike, you had to share this rickshaw basket between you as you ran the 1st 3K. There was another point in that race. So this was four day race, probably very similar to defiance and distance. You'd race, you know, anywhere between 6 to 10 hours a day. And there was another point in the race where I hadn't done much abseiling. I'd bought all my new gear because you had to abseiling. We were using figure eights, so nice.

[10:30] And effectively you have safeties if you're ever doing abseiling here. There was a bridge and now, yeah, I'm, I'm going to say it was a good hundred metres. It could have even been 120 metres high at this bridge. And I knew it was coming up and I had the assumption we were all going to have to abseil off this bridge in the middle of the race. So get out of the kayak, run up the side of the Canyon, get on the bridge, flip down, come back into your kayak and go on. Anyway, I was absolutely shitting myself. I was like, I kind of know what

[11:00] I'm doing, but never off anything like this and it's a free fall and like just off the side. Anyway, when we get there, thank Christ one of us had to do it. And so Rich got the short, the experienced one got the short end of the stick. But what all I can remember is when they came down there and there was Daniel Jones. So people are listening who are runners will know Daniel Jones from New Zealand because he does western state. I think he might have got third at Western states last year. This is like wins Tarawera all the time in the hundreds.

[11:31] Now Dan was racing and he he comes from that background too. And he was the first one down the repel and all I can remember is his Figure 8. When he got in his boat, it was burning like literally burning hot. So there was like a hot cake because they've they've got off the rope and they've all got their Figure 8 on still and it's just burning their legs. And I'm just like, at this stage I'm like, where am I? What am I doing? How did I get here? From London Olympic Triathlon. So cool. So different and so cool.

[12:04] Yeah, I mean, repelling while we were zip lining with bikes. It's just running through rice paddies, man. It was an experience I'd go back to any day. That and right there every what we've just both spoke about and what the people from black sheep talked about in racist. And that's why marathon running, Yeah, but I don't reckon you get it the same as adventure racing and multi day races. I don't think it's this is a little gateway for people who might be listening and might have found the podcast through the marathon series. This is a little gateway into

[12:34] what could be next for you, what might be ahead of you if you run the marathon and decide, oh, I think I've got a bit of a niche for this endurance thing. Yeah, well, it's when you go. Well, I've I've done marathons, I've done Iron Man triathlon, all that. What's What's next? If you're a box ticker, Yeah, If you're a box ticker. But also because I described this to the fellow Paul Harris, who was doing the photography thing for the Gold Coast Marathon when he asked me about why he signed up for this talk. And I described it to him is that it's I don't want to say search for hurt because that was that TV show that fella did

[13:06] briefly, but it is that I am still actively looking for my limit. I've found my limit in terms of like my body's showing me my limits in terms of what I'm where I can get to before the body breaks down or where I need to take a break. But in terms of that in the moment, quit moment. Like, I'm still genuinely curious to know, which is why when my friend ran the 100 mile at UTA this year, I wanted to hear, I wanted him to tell me about it because I wanted to get a sense of, oh, how much would

[13:38] that hurt? How painful would that be? And that was second hand. And I'm still really curious to know now at 40, what events, what distances, what challenges are going to put me back into that. So if you took a marathon and the breakdown of what you feel in a marathon, because that's testing yourself, right, versus this ultra style of like what's going to be like in 100, Do you see that as two different things? Like, are they? Are you finding two different

[14:09] things out about yourself in them? For me now I do because, and again, I'm a bit of a box checker personality. I've, I know I can run marathons. There's no mental hurdle for me there to finish a marathon. Now it's a question of performance is what we've it's the T-shirts were going to get made up. It's go go harder, not longer. It's that can I achieve a time outcome rather than can I

[14:42] achieve it. Then when you look at these endurance things. So when I went up for Defiance, Ed and I were not chasing a time finish or a result finish. We simply wanted to put ourselves through this. Yeah, UTA 50 is an is a perfect example. The first year I went up and did UTA 50, having never run an ultra before, I just wanted to finish it. I wanted to see what it was like to finish it and run this race. And then when I went back into the second time, I had a time go in mind. So I think it for me, I'm a

[15:16] experience and then if I want to do it again, it's because I want to chase an outcome. But when you talk about those that sort of adventure races, any for me moving forward when I sign up for one of those is because how much is this going to hurt? How like when I first sign up for the first time, it's the reason I want to do 100K race. It's the reason I want to do 100 mile race because I want to and particularly some of those ones over in New Zealand appeal to me because we've talked about the destination type stuff, but I want to see how much it hurts. Yeah, I'm genuinely.

[15:46] Curious to figure that out. Yeah, for me, I'm like always still or now it's got to have something extra. It can't be just the distance. That doesn't do it for me. But if it's the distance, but if there's something there that's going to give me a different experience, like whether that is terrain, whether that's the size of the mound and whether that's the style of trail or whatever it is, it's got to have a hook for me. I've got to, it's got to have a hook to hook me in. That's something different and something new that I'm going to experience.

[16:18] Perfect segue. Yeah, because literally before I walked in here to sit down and talk to you, I was on the phone to Merrick Watts. Yeah, right. Merrick and Rosso, for those that of Ariel, who definitely grew up with these guys on the radio. I've been lucky enough to spend some of my career working with Merrick and I very much still call him a friend and he's a mentor for me in the radio space. He has just been over in Africa running the Big 5 Marathon with Carrie Bickmore, the Beanies for brain cancer thing. So Ned, Ned was over there. Ned actually won the marathon race, but Merrick was over there. Tommy Little, you had some footballs.

[16:49] Isaac Smith, Laura Enever, the Big Way surfer Elodie Pullin doing the half. And Merrick was describing the race to me and he said that's the hardest. And this is Merrick, who finished SAS in the first season on Channel 7. He said that's the hardest thing he's ever done. And he was talking describing it to me in the hook of it. And This is why I feel like you haven't run the Big 5 I'm guessing. No, no, no. But this is apparently I miss this 42 kilometres you race among the wildlife of the African Savannah in an adrenaline fuelled trail run.

[17:23] But it's the thing Merrick was saying which I wasn't aware of. So much sand. He reckons about 20 KS of it is soft sand. Yeah, it's tough. And that I just, I don't know. That sounds horrible, Yeah. But yeah, he said. It was absolutely brutal. Trent Cotchin, the Richmond captain, did it. And Merrick so. What was it all for? I miss that. So Carrie Bickmore, who's first husband passed away from brain cancer. So Carrie makes beanies every year. Yeah, for beanies for brain cancer. And so this year, but she took a bunch of celebrities over there

[17:54] to run the marathon as a fundraising activity. Yeah. So you could do that. But yeah, it sounded it's. So I had. And since that, I've had several people message me and saying, put this on, let's put this on the list. Let's get over there. Get over there to do the Big 5. I've got so many questions off the back of that. Yeah. Is it when you run through? Is it obviously through a game park? Then yes you start at Merrick was and I'm I'll get some of this wrong so if you know more please or if you've done the race, please feel free to tell us about it. You start from a resort.

[18:25] Mm Hmm. And Merrick reckons the only 200 metres of the race where you're not either on difficult trailer in sand is the final driveway when you. Get when? You get to finish line 6 star. Yeah, virtually African, but yeah, but they only allow 500 people in. OK, so it's one of those exclusive, exclusive type setups. Live animals, obviously, Yeah. And you're running into a game park. No. I think so. That's this is where I was getting interested with because like I'm, I'm tipping, you know, like when you see the Safari, Have you been on Safari? Before No, I've never been to Africa.

[18:56] I mean, when you see people going through Safari in those, you know, on the Jeeps and all that, there's protection. I'm tipping they're not going to just let you run through. In one of the most have you been to? Double zoo before. I haven't been to Double Zoo, I've been to in Adelaide to have Monato, which is more, I think what you're thinking. So let me read what it says. This is the Big 5 Marathon. It says in one of the most spectacular game reserves in Africa, the challenging route crosses right through the habitat of the African game, including the famous Big 5

[19:27] elephant, rhino, Buffalo, lion and leopard. So look, I'm assuming there's ranges and there's park employees out there and that's probably why they only allow 500 people right from a safety. Perspective A gun. A gun for each or so. Merrick didn't say anything about having to run with a firearm, but although he probably would have loved that, but yeah, it's, I assume you're running through a game park. It doesn't look like they're running through fenced areas. But yeah, so Mate, put that

[19:58] one on the calendar. Here we go. I was mate. That sounds well one it sounds amazing. I'm OK that has got me interested but. Let's go a local event, Dubbo, Dubbo Stampede. I had thought I'd heard of this. So the Dubbo Stampede. So what's the Dubbo Zoo? Obviously not a game park like that. And that's where I was thinking like, you know, like you're running through a game park, but literally it's fenced off where the cars are driving through. So there's like a nice access for running. But just quickly looking here on the web, there is a run at the Dubbo Zoo.

[20:31] So there's a 42K. Sunday 7th of September. It looks like it goes outside. They've got the wallaby wheel which is A1 KA dingo dash, 5K cheaty chase, 10K zebra zoom, 21K the rhino ramble. I'm trying to find the course. Maybe. It doesn't go through the zoo itself, does. It? Doesn't. Of course, Matt, I've got it. Yeah. You're running in the zoo. Yeah. I mean, you can drive around there, right? Taronga Western Plain Zoo.

[21:02] There you go. But now, well, if you can't get to South Africa, was it South Africa? Was it South Africa? Yeah. If you can't get to South Africa, you can always go out. Yeah, you do. Look, someone's just. Can you see that map? It's the handwritten. The handwritten line. I love that's good. No, no GPS plot. It's just literally a hand drawn line around the. So yeah, you do run into Western Plains Zoo. Now, so this is what we're talking about, finding hooks to make the races. I mean, that's a hook. That's something different for you. If you run around the Dubbo Zoo, the Strong West and Blaine

[21:34] Zoo, you'll be telling people about that. And if you run in South Africa, you'll be telling people about that's very cool. While we're here in the trail running zone, yes. Can I hit you up with some? And I don't know how prepared you'll be for this and we can always dip back in at a later date. But Alicia, who I used to work with up in Brisbane at the radio station, who was part of the run club that I set up in the office up in Brisbane Park runner.

[22:04] But she had this brilliant thing that she sent around to everybody where it was a cut out of a shoe and you would colour in parts of the shoe once you based on your run goal kilometres for the year, said at the start of the year, she's great. She's got a great attitude towards running. She's a jogger, but she's got a great attitude towards running. She has been listening since the start and she messaged me the other day just said I want to get into or I'm starting to get into trails. So she wanted to, she said, can you guys do an episode where

[22:34] you give some really specific trail tips? So Courtney Atkinson, think of me as a brand new beginning trail runner. I've decided maybe I've just finished training for the Gold Coast Marathon. Maybe I've had enough of plotting the same pavement and someone's told me, hey, you should try trail running. What do I need? What do I need to do? Step one. Step one is ask. Yeah, you can ask around someone. Where do I run first? Let's say you've done that.

[23:06] OK, let's just say. You're ready to go into the trails. The first thing I would say, because one of the biggest what I hear with trail and trying to get over that step, especially if you're running on your own and you're not getting taken in there by someone who's already running those trails, is the fear of getting lost. OK, phone, take your phone, grab a grab one of the running backpacks or you don't even need that. Just hold your phone in your hand. Take your phone in. There's so many apps. There's your I'm going to get the names wrong now, but you got like maps me, which is what we use for even like Red Bull racer

[23:38] sun. That's all we use for the course to be able to follow our course for 345 kilometres through trail back roads, country, whether you're driving or running. It's so simple. All the trails you'll find on there. And then what you can do is even like Strava, you can use that now and download an offline map on Strava. So find a route through your trail section you want to go and run. Make sure you download it to an offline version, which is all pretty self explanatory on the app. Because if you get out there and there's no service, service.

[24:09] So. Even in the ring, you know our local trails where we go running. Where I still have the fear of getting lost when you're not running with you. If I run out there by myself, I run the same loop because I'm not confident of where we are. The very first time I ever went in there was pre like the kind of maps and that I took a mud map in like an old drawing of the park map and they had a few trails, so like but no compass or anything. You were just hoping you're on the right trail. It's great. I ended up popping out at the backside of Mount Nathan. So as if you're going out, just driving out.

[24:39] You're a little number. Well, I just I just came back on the wrong fire road and then by where I popped out I was on the road but I was literally to get back round. It was a good. You know. Yeah, so my first, like we're all in the same boat. My first experience out there was awful. And then from then on I made sure, you know, I knew where I was sticking to. But take the phone and be confident that you know, you can. Apps these days can pinpoint you to the metre of if you've got a trail split, it will show you which direction to go. You can literally know which. Trail you're going to go take

[25:10] the phone and make sure it's charged. I had an incident in Katoomba when I was training for a UTA 50 year. I went up for just, I had time, so I made the trip up solo. I was halfway out. So essentially I was about 25% into my run and I looked down and my phone, I just hadn't checked it and my phone's on very little battery. And I just went, you know what, this isn't worth it. I'll run out of battery, I'll get lost down there and then I'm in trouble. I'm in the Blue Mountains. It's all went back to the car, but that's the other. That's the other phone to take a

[25:41] charge. Strava heat maps is another great way to know. Like if you're going into a whole section of trails, like if you were in let's say Brisbane running and you wanted to go out to Daisy Hill and have a run around the fire roads. Even if you look at the heat match, you can tell generally where most of the runners are running or walkers or hiking or whatever it is. And then that would be where I'd go to. That's great. Instead of getting off on some of the more, you know, backtracks accidentally and then kind of going, oh shit, where am I? So yeah, I'd use heat maps especially. And then you get into really I'm not a big fan of saying,

[26:16] hey, you need to go and buy a pair of trail shoes because 90% of the trails you're going to go into, you don't need to, You can just wear your Rd shoes. And the third thing is go and do it because you'll bloody love it. And if you can find someone that makes the whole process a lot easier to go and find someone who runs. Trails, that's what I would that would be my tip as a somebody at the lower end of it, find someone to go and do it with you. It doesn't matter. And if they're more experienced, great. If they're the same level of experience, fine, But find someone to do it because I would also, I think trial running is

[26:48] better than without headphones. I know if you're if you're comfortable out there and you're confident, go for it. But if you're starting out, don't take your music. I would, I would leave your headphones out because there's also an I've found an extra level of concentration needed when if you, if all you've ever done is run, run the roads and pavements and whatever. Trail running requires an extra level of concentration because it's that you, when you get tired and lazy and stop the knee lift and lifting your feet up.

[27:19] If you do that on the trails, you will fall over you. And I've done it, but also I'm just looking. And so Alicia's up in Brisbane. You ever run around Whites Hill Reserve? I don't think. It's Whites Hill. It's near Camp Hill. No, it's great. Is that near? No, it's not near. It's near Carindale. It's near the Westfield Carindale there, but it's a great, essentially suburban trail. Yeah, this heaps of trail. I mean, depends on which part of Brisbane you're in. I've been going out to Eastern

[27:49] Escarpment, which is so out near Sirromet Winery. Yeah. OK. So you've got Daisy Hill where all the mountain bikers go and hikers and it's a great place to do like on the fire roads. That's where we did a lot of our long running when I was a kid. I'd even drive from here on the coast, go up and run in Daisy. But then now you've got all these like other areas out near Redlands Bay that going out that direction where it's a great loop around Eastern Escarpment, just like a yeah, part of it's a little bit of the mountain bike trap, but then it just gets into normal stuff and then.

[28:19] First year up here, when I moved up from Sydney and I was getting ready to do UTA 50, I was running up in Mount Coot-tha a lot. Well, Couth has got the Maccouth is great. You have a state. State, Yeah. But that's why I was running it, because I was trying to get ready for UTA 50 and I knew the Blue Mountain. Was the elevation because Brisbane Trail, the final round of the Salomon Golden Trail from when we went down to kunanyi. So the final race is when you're listening to this on Saturday, I'm pretty sure it's next weekend and it's in the mount, all that area of Mount Coot-tha and everything.

[28:49] Cool. So the final race of that series now it's steep like, and when I say steep, it's not like one big climb like you did down in kunanyi. It's just relentless, up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down. But I don't think there's a climb in there longer than a kilometre. But it's just it's non stop, yeah, if you're not going up, you're going straight back down. And now, like for me, that's not my like that's not my strength in running these short, sharp, really kind of kicker heels. But some people who run on

[29:19] trails absolutely love them. Going back to what you said again, let's just get back about your trail and not running with music and this idea of why the extra or the added benefit. I feel like running in the Bush and the trail is, yes, you've got you've got the you've got the natural sounds, but you have to concentrate. So whether you're on a mountain bike or whether you're doing running you, when you're just focused on what you're doing there, that takes your mind off everything else as well. Yeah. You find it a lot harder to kind of have your mind going in a direction where you think overthinking a problem or

[29:50] whatever because you're actually concentrating on the trail. Jamie Fraser wrote in last week because he loved how you finished episode. It must have been 39, right? Yeah, he said at the end of episode 39. You were talking about running from and we don't use the word mental health, but you're just running because it makes you. Feel bloody good. Yes, let's call it We talked. I talked about the clean cleanness. Yes, the cleanliness that gave my head. And he said I started running with my first goal of just running 5K without stopping. But over time he realised how

[30:21] his mood has improved around running. And that's the for him it's the freedom of the moment, of doing nothing else and running. And he's he, he, he's backing you. He said he doesn't listen to anything during his runs because he, that's what he gets out of running is actually to be able to go out and just get away from everything digital. And I and I hear him. I'm, I'm in both worlds. I love listening to podcast music sometimes, but other times I'll just go in and, you know, completely just sign out. On the side, yeah, and I agree. Jamie, thank you for that message, mate. I'm glad it resonated with you. And I couldn't stand by more

[30:53] because I went for a run with David Rhodes, the Olympian. Yeah, Rosie and I went for a trot on. I should've. And I know what you're gonna say. I know what you're gonna say. And it's where was my message. And I apologise because here's the thing. I finished the run and I said to Rosie, I'm like, Courtney's gonna be mad. We should have invited Courtney. I'm so sorry. Well, now I know I've got a message from Rosie. It wasn't out of it wasn't out the IT wasn't out of the kindness of his heart. He was feeling bad because he messaged me about Race the Sun. I want to do it next time. Yeah. Rosie and I went for a run on

[31:24] Wednesday and we went out and did we met at North Burleigh Surf Club and we went out and did that run sort of up around Tallebudgera Creek area there and you get, it's a great, we ended up doing 13 1/2 fourteen KS. But it's an amazing run because you get a little bit of trail, you get a little bit of boardwalk, you get a little bit of Rd, you get a little bit of beach like all within Burley basically. So it was an awesome loop and I didn't have headphones because I'm talking the whole time. Rhodes and I are running and

[31:55] talking and that 30 1/2 is the biggest run I've done since the 21 K session where I hurt my calf. But I got to the end of it and you know, we were punching along. Nothing flash but five O fives, five 10's and I wasn't thinking about. It because you're chatting away because. You're chatting away, you're catching up. We were talking. It was it was really, really good. Just quickly I'll do what because to the trail thing, we will move on. But the trail tips Alicia, I found a specific message and she said she's loved the JC Marathon series.

[32:25] It would be awesome to get some specific trail run training advice because she signed up for the Toohey Trail Run in September. They so Toohey Forest is where I was thinking. I'm pretty sure Toohey Forest is next to the Griffith University out near the old. Yes, it is Griffith Uni, the Toohey trail run. Yeah. So that's they're, I think it's a bit of trail, bit of concrete. So we've given some Here's how you get into trail running. What about what she said she she said she went for went for a trail run and cried because she's discovered she hates

[32:55] hills. What's what's a really simple way aside from going and doing more? I was going. To say go and do more hills. Go do more hills, but to kind of break help breakthrough that barrier. The first thing to say is if the hills are too hard, you walk at some point. I mean, there's going to be levels here. Let's just talk generally. There is a point when I go, even when I was at, you know, running at my top best, every trail

[33:26] runner, no matter what level you're at, there's a point at a hill where you will walk, you'll start to power hike. And it's actually more efficient to do that. It's taking less energy. So if you bring that down, like at different levels or different, you know, whether you're just starting on the trails, like that hill might be smaller or larger for different people, But don't feel bad about walking up that hill, especially when you've got then the added variants of like off Cam, you know, things going on roots, rocks off Cam, but you're on a trail. So it's harder to run as it is. And then you throw the hill in there. Walk.

[33:56] So walk, walk. The second one is the only I mean you can go to a gym and do a little bit of lifting, it might help a bit, but nothing is going to be specific to actually going out and training on that terrain is going to be a helpful. Get on them hills. Do you find this is just more of a question for me Trail hill versus Rd hill. Is it still is a hill a hill? Like, do you know what I mean is if I go because there's some steep hills around me where I live on suburban roads, is running them going to be helpful?

[34:28] Is it a direct? I mean, yes, it'll be, I mean, hills are hills, right? Like it's the strength, it's the, it's training the strength to run up a hill. And there's a different what Michael Shelley was talking about last week. You actually, you know, you have to attack it a little bit differently how you run up a hill when if you want to keep your speed or keep your cadence and whatever else around that area. But there is a difference to trail running hills because the notion of you make a road, you flatten it so a car can go up. So it's always going to be a pretty set gradient.

[34:58] You know what I mean? Like you don't go up a, you don't go up a road hill where you're kind of chopping and changing between the gradient. So it's pretty kind of generally. Constant. That's not what Trail Hills trails. They're going to have like water boards and when I say water boards is like where they get a tractor in and actually build up like a little bit of a jump or a lump to be able to have the water flow off. You know, you're getting, you're continuously going to be changing the grading you're going up. And that's what makes trail run hills often hard. It's that, yeah, it's because I

[35:28] guess so as you explained that to me, I'm going to regurgitate it in my simpleton mind. The run up at Rd Hill is consistent. So your muscles, you know with every in the same way that when you run on the flat it's the same muscles working, when you find yourself running up that consistent gradient, it's the same muscles work, same effort. It's the same effort. You know you're going to push off and it's going to activate. Those muscles trail because of the unevenness. It's the different muscles that are going to activate at different points and it's the

[35:58] ligaments and all the rest of that. It's that ankle strength that will get tested. It's that knee mobility that will get tested. And the actual gradient itself, you might step off for three steps at a gradient of 20% and then suddenly you drop the flat for three steps and then up and you know, like. That's when stride length changes to. Chopping and changing and working out how that is for those like I mentioned Brisbane Trail Ultra, that the Golden Trail League or Golden Trail Series where it's going to be. There's a, for those around the Brisbane area at Coot-tha, they'll always know the Kokoda Hill. So it's the, it's now I'll be

[36:30] corrected on this. I think it's about two kilometres. I'm going to be, that's my guess, 1 1/2 to 2K. But it is steep. But it's the same type of thing where it's not like a consistent steepness from the bottom to the top. 1.6 mile out and back trail. Out and back 1.6 mile. Go to trail at Mount Coot-thaa in Brisbane. OK. Yeah. So when you're running up that you actually like for most runners, the best runners are going to run up the guts of it, just straight up it. And they may, most of them,

[37:02] most, some will run up the whole thing. Some might choose to walk sections where it really kicks up. But as most runners, you'd make a decision at some point. Like, you know, when you're on a bike and the hill gets too steep and you start zigzagging? That's the same on this hill. There's a point you will decide, do I just power hike up this or do I do a bit of zigzag or, you know, what's the easiest way on my muscles? And I think that's key is like, what's the easiest way on my muscles so that when I get to the top of the hill, I can keep running. Because The thing is with hills, if you bucket yourself on the hill itself, you can lose more

[37:35] time. You might, you know, you might make up 10 metres on the uphill and red line. But once you get over the Crest damage on that, you can lose, you know, 20 minutes at the back end of the course because you've already helped yourself again, that Alicia, I think we're probably giving you more enough, yeah, more than enough to get stuck into your trial training. And if anybody else has specific things that they're training for, like Alicia's done and they want to send in specific questions, what we can do here with Courtney is take your specific questions and broaden

[38:05] them out for everybody. So feel free to send them in. And as always, we love a voicemail as well. Where do you want to go next man? Hey, I'm going to call you out on this because I reckon you haven't done it, Forest. If you're about to ask me about our Forrest Gump homework, I haven't done it well. I did a little bit of homework for you then, Liam. This was born out of the conversation last week about the idea of running in movies. I can't remember what I was talking about last week that brought it on. Can I that just shows what this is an out there was?

[38:36] Something about somebody running in a movie or ATV series. I can't. Remember what it was? I think we're talking about how they didn't look like they were running, maybe properly. I don't know. Anyway, Anyway, I typed in, of course you type in something to do with Hollywood and movies. Running's booming. So the SEO running picks it up. So the one I found couldn't find much information on like ultra runners type things in movies.

[39:06] But let's go back. We mentioned Tom Cruise, so Rotten Tomatoes has an article. It has dated May the 27th. So you know runnings. Of this year, yes Oh, wow, so it's a new recent article because it is because. You've got an Internet, you've got a social guy there at a business. So Rotten Tomatoes going. OK, what's trending at the moment that someone's going to read run clubs, run clubs, run clubs, OK, running in movies, we're done. OK. So anyway, Tom Cruise himself, they reckon he's ran. I'll go back to Mother Notes because that's in feet.

[39:38] He is sprinted. So not just run, They reckon he is sprinted in movies 3232 1/2 thousand feet, so 9.8 kilometres on screen through 44 years of movies. So he's done nearly 10K of Sprint. You know when we see him in sprinting, you never see him just chase your planes like cars. That's the whole way, like 10K of sprinting but in my. Head, as you just said that I tried to picture Tom Cruise

[40:08] jogging and I couldn't because he's always running flat. Stick, I reckon at times was it, was it a match? Was he here in Australia and Matt Shirvington sprinted against him? No, they didn't Sprint against each other. But what happened was that Servo asked him about his running style and then mentioned that he was a sprinter in another life. And Tom Cruise said, oh, I remember you from the. Olympics and why he remembered him. Yeah, the lunch box.

[40:38] Yeah, I thought they might add a bit of a bit of a race. No, I don't think they can. Remember something I don't think Tom would would would want to put himself in a position where he got shown up because I reckon Sherva would still dust him. Sherva then went out not long afterwards and raced the V8 Supercar. That might be what you're thinking of. Did he bet it? Yeah, he did. There you go. So 19 minutes of super cuts of his sprints, that's a lot of. That's a lot of. Sprint. That's a lot of sprints in movies I actually saw.

[41:08] Now I'm going to get this wrong. He was for his new movie. The way they're promoting it is he's got a Guinness World Record of I think he jumps out on a parachute, lights it on fire and then picks it up and gets So like he he lights his parachute on fire and then gets his reserve and lands. Yeah, he's he. I think if he had his choice, he'd love to go out doing a stunt. He's that man's got an obsession with that sort of stuff. So I did try and do some homo for you.

[41:38] I can. I can, I can. While you've been talking, I've done my homework, I've crammed. I'm one of those students that. You're a better googler than I am. Quickly jumps in so Forrest Gump, this is he said when he when he slept when he got tired, he slept and when he got hungry he ate. So this is he just felt like running right. So this is for those people that haven't seen the movie basically he just starts running one day and doesn't stop till he's he says he'll just go home. Somebody Marathon Handbook has actually done the investigation into what now they can't say for

[42:11] sure what route he took because you just see super cuts from, yeah, it's a montage, right? But they know he began running on October 1st, 1979 and then he just starts running. The maths they've done is that he ran a little under a half marathon a day. So he ran just under 21. He ran. In total, they estimated that he ran 24,539 kilometres. I got I'm lost here.

[42:43] We're talking about a real forest, Gump. In the movie. Yeah. But we're not talking Tom Cruise. Not Tom Cruise. Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks No, this is the character Oh, OK, this is how far they think the character the. Character ran. Forrest Gump OK ran in the movie. So I see I got. I got. You wanted to know how? Far. I want to know how far did Tom Hanks run have to run in the movie to make Forrest Gump? Because this is where you know Tom Cruise in his movies he

[43:14] seems sprinting after a car. It looks like he's gone across the city but it's a super cut. So how much did he actually run himself in the movie? OK, I haven't done that at home yet. And a quick Google said Tom Hanks did the majority of the running scenes in Forrest Gump, but his brother Jim Hanks served as the body double for particular scenes during the running. So I'm guessing not that much. But. Oh, here we go. A Reddit thread says that Forrest Gump ran for three years, two months, 14 days and 16 hours. Three years, three years, two

[43:47] months, 14 days and 16 hours. Jesus. 100 and 1170 days. That's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of running. I was going to say yeah. Compared to those challenges that are going around at the moment, what did, what do we say? Sean Bell, the one who ran around Australia the other day, how far 50 was he? 150 days. 50 days. Sean Bell ran thirteen, 13,383

[44:17] kilometres in 158 days. So he hasn't. He's run for 150 years, not even a half a year. Promise Guy ran for three years there we go all his remember we said remember you asked the question a couple bucks impressive what's impressive that's impressive that's impressive if you can go and do the Forrest Gump run Yep that's impressive 3 years I want. To see a second, I second that. There we go. There we go. We worked. Today. Yeah, what do we got? OK boys, what do we got? Ryan #1 Fan never fails boys with the not so into Vibe around

[44:52] the long insurance event. Actually this is a good segue, Not so into vibe. This was our We're not so into the vibe around the long. We're Backyard Ultra. We appreciate. I got a really nice message when I was out at Tenterfield from a runner, from the runners. We talked earlier on about the lady who broke the Now I'm going to get in trouble because I can't remember was doing the track around and round the tracks. Yes, yes, yes, yes, Yeah, no. We gave her a shout out on the on the other episode. Race was in Red Bull races on.

[45:24] Came along awesome. Huge. We support every run, and we support all running. That, let's be really clear, it's not. We're not into the Vault. No, no, no. Our baseline is running is great, all running is great, all running is great. But we're still there to have opinions. On if we. Didn't we prefer if? We didn't have opinions. It'd be the point. Yeah. So what do you say now I'm got off track? But then he said, I've got the message, I'll jump into it. Here we go. But then seeing how well Red Bull Race the Sun went over the weekend, what do you think are the main differences? And what excites you about Red

[45:56] Bull Race the Sun but not Backyard Ultra? Is it the concept? Is it because it's a team event or is it just because it's your own event corner? What is another concept for an endurance event you feel would work? And do you think team events like Race the Sun will become more popular in coming years? I feel like we've talked a little bit about the idea of designing our events that appeal to us and whatever, but I mean, the Red Bull Race, the Sun was your concept. Well, it's a branch. It helps when it's of course it's nine yes, you've got your own personal investment.

[46:27] Yeah, so OK, but against the back look, if you took the two let's go back out Ultraverse that event and we were talking about adventure races earlier in the episode 2 because to me, I see the Red Bull race, the sun run as more an adventure run. Yes, it's an adventure. You're leaving the Gold Coast and you're and you're leaving the Gold Coast. The beach at the morning sun shining, nice warm weather. You're going up through some of the nicest rainforest trails you'll find anywhere in the world.

[46:57] I easily can say that. And then you're out in kind of like granite country to finish in -3° with bloody scraping eye for ice of a car. That's an adventure. I agree. You don't get that running around in. Circles totally agree. And that's the difference between what excites me about an adventure versus back out ultra. I agree, and here's why I think we could almost say that to throw a very, very broad blanket. Yeah, the I would say Australia

[47:29] is a country of Greece and you can almost expand that and say the world of Greece. And I'll give you a very specific defined example. I know I can guess what that example is going. To be Nedd Brockman. Yep, his run across Australia captured the imagination. When he ran around circles at Sydney Olympic Park didn't have the same effect. Boring. Because it's not as exciting. It's not any less impressive, but it's not as exciting. It's a scenery you're looking at end, end. Visually.

[47:59] This is because I asked. I asked for some feedback after the way and visually it's in my way, said what's impressive running. But visually, if you go, I ran from there to there. It's very easy to correlate. I ran from one side of Australia to another. Every person can understand that. You've probably never driven it in your life, but you can still understand if I fly there, that's five hours. That's a bloody long way. If you run around a track, we all know probably how we've probably done it in a school life at some time. Run around the track. Yeah, you're doing a whole lot of laps, but is 100 laps a lot

[48:29] or a 10,000? Like it's just. It's a lapse. It's a lapse. The other thing, Ryan, on the like back out ultra and the kind of more advent, let's call them adventurous style long distance stuff is I also think about the average person, the normal runner, the normal insurance person of like, how does it affect your life if you go out and do a back out ultra and you're out there for 48 hours and you've haven't slept as the

[49:00] runner? I'm talking about as the runner now you haven't slept. You've done that. You were destroyed for a week, right? Yeah. If you're Liam over here and you've got to get into the radio station to do your week's work and you don't want to take leave for the week after this event, you are not it's not cut. You're not going to be capable of doing that. You're going to be absolutely rude. 24 hours is actually an amount where it is. You heard the story. It's taxing. It's a challenge, but you know what, you can go to sleep, you can catch up on it and you can go back to work on Monday,

[49:32] tell your story and still be operating in a normal environment. And that's also why there's a limit to when I think about, and this is thinking more broad, if I was to like what appeals, how how do you actually get people like that? So it's not going to just destroy the whole like you're not you're not putting your whole life on hold either for this thing. Because we talked about you've got families, you've got young families, you've got work, you've got all these other commitments. Yeah, it's all good for if you're a professional athlete making money out of it. But I'm not saying it's not a great challenge for others to go

[50:02] up against. But I'm saying for the average population, work's important. Yeah, the that is why and again, I know I spoke about this earlier, but that's why Red Bull Defiance was great because we had three days there where Ed and I were in race mode. Day one, where it was, we had the not qualification, what was it called? The thing where we had the race at the start along the beach and then oh. Like the prologue. The prologue. We had the prologue on day one, so we arrived. We raised the prologue.

[50:33] Day 2 is our second day. There was day one of the race, our third day. There was day two of the race. Then Ed and I had four more days at this incredible location with our wives and our young kids. If that race had been a torture chamber, now it was hard, it was challenging, and as I said, it's as tight as I've ever been. But if that had been a torture change Chamber of a thing where I was unable to get out of bed for the next two days, I would not list it as the thing I

[51:03] wanted to go back and live again or experience again. But the difficulty of it was perfectly matched against the ability for Ed and I then to spend the next 3-4 days enjoying an amazing part of the world with our families. So the key here, and you just nailed it, is sleep. Oh my God. So what? You can do multiple multi day events, but as long as you get the sleep, you can then go back to work, go into your normal

[51:33] life. Hey, you doing like Cairns Ironman was on the weekend, right though, right. You're look, some people are out there racing, finishing at midnight, but they're still gonna then finish, go to sleep. They'll get a good 678 hours, probably get to bed early the next night. Your body is gonna be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these are easy events. Your body is gonna be flat. But you can then go and operate mentally and get on with your life. You might be hobbling, but you get on with your life events that you're out there and start to miss sleep for over 24 hours

[52:06] or longer and then like don't catch up on it. That then takes a mental toll on what you then can go on and do. So you're talking here like expedition race adventure racing where you know they might go for three or four days and like trying to do micro sleeps for two hours and things like that. We're talking about if you're doing the back out ultra and going on for like, I don't know how long the longest ones goes, but we're taking a long time. Plus it's physical taxing. That's a great you that is a great philtre. You've just, I think you've, you've also just for people out

[52:37] there listening who are in that world or are thinking about that world, there's that very clear line when this thing, it's the sleep line, it's. Asleep. So I was, I was reading, I think this came from online.com during the week, but they were talking about I was reading about Kilian Jornet, who is like the greatest trail endurance trail runner ever. He's the Michael Jordan of Trail Run. Ever. Like just hands down. Don't even need to go into what he's done. He was talking about, so he's going back to Western states this year and he was talking about how he's, I suppose life

[53:10] has changed like because he, you know, as a young 20 year old, he was operating at the highest end and now he's got a family, a few kids, I think. Anyway, he was saying in the hair about how being a dad and that and how his whole runnings change. But he still loves the challenge of going back there and trying to race. Now that things of thing and this is a quote or like a paragraph what they were talking about. He said the things that really work for recovery are the cheapest but also the most difficult to achieve. This starts with sleep like really good sleep.

[53:42] It's nutrition and eating well, stress, stress and load management in training. You need to know when you're training. You need to know when you're training so much so you can't and then you can't recover. You need good food that doesn't cause inflammation, less processed and less chemicals. And they get literally said and all the fancy tools forget them. This is coming from the best runner in the like because he and now it's not saying don't get the fancy tools because if you can, it's not saying they

[54:13] don't. Work no but. He's saying as a choice, if you're limited on time, I want to spend time with my kids, my family and everything else. Here's the most simpler way, and it's the best way. The fancy tools don't have to be an obstacle, A barrier to entry. And it's the hardest way because it's the one that you got to go and get some sleep. You want to stay up on the watching movies, on the computer, doing whatever. Sleep, sleep. That's the sacrifice. That's. Yeah. When you talk about elite athlete sacrifice, it's not necessarily, you know, all the other stuff. It's the. I won't stop and watch another

[54:43] episode of Netflix. Yeah, exactly. Hey Socks, got one on socks. Go, I've got a bit of gear. Go for it. Been too long since we've had a good sock chat, Courtney. Michael Derrick has written in. I'm interested about Socks. We all are mate. But should I be? Should he be? Absolutely, Yeah. Hey. Do they actually make any difference or is it all about the shoes? Newest to running at nearly 49 and training for the Mooloolaba marathon, my first, and spending most of my days overthinking

[55:14] things. Like all of us mate, we all do that. Really enjoying the pod. OK socks. What do you reckon Liam override? I've never had a drama with socks so I will run in anything from you gave me at the pointy end. You sorted me out. A brilliant pair of Salomon socks for kunanyi. They were their race socks. They were good. Now, I don't know what they are, but they're awesome, right?

[55:44] They're brilliant socks. I don't know how much they cost, I don't know what they're made of, but I ran up kunanyi with them and I know that people can experience problems with socks, blisters and all the rest of it. Obviously with these high end socks. No dramas, amazing. Feet were great, shoes were great, happy days. On the other end of the scale, I will regularly run in a pair of KFC socks that I got from the radio station. Any difference? I mean, yes, I mean, there's a difference, there's a difference, there's a

[56:14] difference, but my feet don't seem to mind the difference. OK, so here's a way I can put the question to you. Is it a $70 difference? No, no, no, for me with my running the free promo, KFC socks do the job. Yeah, I'd happily go and run the Gold Coast Marathon in those. Socks, yeah, for me, they there is a difference in the premiumness. Of course there is 100% and

[56:46] well made running socks or cycling socks are amazing. They're incredible, but they're not the same change a shoe's gonna make. That's a great. Point that's the question. That's the that and that is the key point there. You talk about socks and shoes and all the rest of that. The difference in yeah, if you said to me, would I be prepared to pay the $70 deal or even $140 because of a shoe that gave me something that the 140, the cheap dollar shoe couldn't, Yes, I would pay the money for the shoe.

[57:16] No, I wouldn't pay for the socks. So that's a good way me Michael, for me like, yeah, I the premium socks are great. I've used Swiftwick as my socks of choice because I got into them in cycling and they've always done well. They're just a thin, they make some socks out of Merino as well, but just a thin good sock that last. But on the Salomon ones, because I always given the same pair you were. So they were they were race crew and they're a nice thin 1. So it that well, that was nice. But then I actually just got

[57:47] like, you know, if you go into woollies or not woollies, Big W or Target or something, you can get like the three socks for 10 bucks. Your crew socks. So Salomon have a three pack of crew socks which are more for this, you know. Yeah, your sports style, I've been running in them. They look a bit not they've good colours. They're like all these earthy colours. I'm only running them for the look. And you know what? Not noticing any difference. This is the. I'd race the tighter premium ones if I was racing, but for

[58:18] when I'm just going out this morning and having a jog, the crew socks work. I have taken my. I have taken my sock off. I can smell it. I have taken my sock off this. What's that one? This is a what's that symbol? That is, this is another pair of free socks. They do stink mate. Yeah, that's my Oh yeah, this is. These are some free socks I've got. Speaking of a three set, three sock set, Yeah, at Magic Round this year up at Suncorp Stadium, I went to meet up with my old mate Mark Geyer MG, and he had

[58:48] us in a little lounge area where they were giving everybody free Magic Round socks. Oh. That is the magic round. This is the. Magic Round This is the NRL Magic Round symbol on the sock I run and I've got three sets, 3 pairs of these. They're awesome, super comfy socks and I reckon they're probably exact a similar Kmart big W type set up sock. So no, socks aren't tax a lot of your drums train training. All right, Well, everyone a quick a quick. Oh, what are you gonna? Say I want to. Are we about to finish up? Can I finish up with a teaser?

[59:18] Sure. I'm feeling pretty good. Oh, I'm starting to feel pretty good and all I'm saying is I might. Get there. Come on, I. Might I might be on the start line. Oh Jesus, I might be on the start line come Gold Coast Marathon. Talk about flip flop. I might be there.

[59:49] There's no time in mind and I know, Benita said. Don't do it. All right, let I want, let's wait till next Wednesday when we get we get Benita back in here for this, because I don't want to discuss it. Share, recommend, review, rate, subscribe, all the things that you get told to do and all these things and we'll see you next week. See you next week.