EP 34 - WHY IS COURTNEY WEIRDLY COMFORTABLE NOT RUNNING?

[00:00] In the beginning, episode 34. Courtney, how are you going? I'm good. You know what? I've got the green light, I'm running. Are you back? I'm back. Exciting. Well, I'm not back — OK, OK, OK, I'll just take one step back. I'm skipping, but my scans are clean. This has been bone — what was wrong with your bone? So, stress reaction — stress reaction in the femur — and I waited six weeks, did all the right stuff, very conservative, and green light. So here we go, I was on the mountain bike this morning. So how long until you'll be able

[00:32] to go for a run as you know it? Well, you know, it depends on whose opinion you listen to, but the opinion I'm listening to is I'll progress over the next month, and hopefully within a month be back to normal. How long will that have been from your last run to back on your feet? Right, so — next week will be nearly eight weeks. Two months, two months — and this is the biggest gap you reckon you've ever had? Ever. Ever since I was probably thirteen, fourteen.

[01:03] Can we get a "woo woo" for a moment — like, how do you feel you've changed? I'd prefer not to, but — two months not doing the thing you probably love doing most. Yeah, I told you, I got pretty comfortable with it. You have got weirdly comfortable with it. I have. It's a bit scary, but I got back in the bush on a mountain bike this morning, so — You were back in the bush? Oh, I thought when you said you're on the mountain bike, for some reason I imagined you were on a stationary trainer. No, no, no, I was out, I got straight back out on the mountain bike. I was just being ultra conservative.

[01:34] So, as far as an impact on that bone, certain things you probably could have got away with, but I stayed off everything — I thought, let's just do it properly. But now the scan's clean, I'm a bit more optimistic. So yeah man, I was in the bush this morning, it was a good day. It's a magic day that we're recording today. What are you targeting? What have you already worked out on your calendar? I don't pretend you haven't worked it out.

[02:04] I haven't, I haven't worked out my calendar, but City2Surf would be — a really beginning of August kind of thing — it'd be good to run there and be running in the background. Have you run that before? I have run it — so you just — surf back around my Olympic campaigns? Yeah, like, to have a hit-out before going to the Olympic Games. I think my best result might have been fifth — fifth, yeah, yeah, right. What sort of time, 'cause it's a 14K track? I'd have to look it up, but I think around 40:42. Yeah, right, yeah, that's a low 42, mate. We've talked a bit about City2Surf on

[02:34] some of the earlier episodes, but that is such an iconic race, such a great event, such a great day. Well, it's the biggest running race in Australia. And how far off — 'cause I think, isn't there — what's the biggest running race in the world? I think there's one in London, it's not London Marathon — but while we're here, I'm going to pull up this thread for a moment, because a mate of mine just ran the Sydney Harbour Half Marathon, and a few people listening to this might have run it as well.

[03:05] Not a prolific runner, but he's done a couple of half marathons now, and I asked him to sum up the race for me in three or four sentences. He said: start was packed, hard to move; he felt good throughout; huge hill at the 17K mark that almost ruined him, almost dropped him to a walk; but he ran without looking at his watch for splits or worrying about speed, and he was pleasantly surprised when he crossed the line. OK. I then spoke to him on the phone just before I got here, and what

[03:36] he said about that half marathon was — the way they've designed the course allows people to be spectators at the 5K mark, and also at the 15K mark, so it creates that loop back on itself. This one goes through Centennial Park — no wait, this one goes through the Rocks — getting around there. But what he loved, and this is as someone who's not a big runner but has gotten into these races, is he said the signs everyone had as spectators, and all that sort of stuff. And we had a bit of a

[04:06] conversation about how, as running booms and these races become more and more popular, the challenge for event organisers now isn't to sell entries — it's to create the vibe. And we both know that's what Gold Coast Marathon is setting themselves as a challenge this year, ahead of the marathon. And when you look at the majors, we know what the vibe is like in London, we know what the vibe is like in New York and Boston. How do these event organisers create that spectator atmosphere at these events?

[04:40] And I think about the Gold Coast Marathon, which is essentially an out-and-back course, so it's not like you can be a spectator at multiple spots — you're kind of restricted, you pick one spot. And running isn't — it's not like a game of footy where you sit there and the action's in front of you the whole time. So it's like, how do you motivate people to want to come out and spectate these races? Yeah, I mean, Gold Coast isn't too bad, because if you choose the northern end or the southern end you see the runners go past twice, so you get both sides of it.

[05:12] But it's a challenge when it's spread out that far. And I think the idea around a lot of those majors is each suburb or borough, wherever you are in the world, kind of fights to have their own little — you know, "we're the best place, we've got the best atmosphere through our borough or our suburb." Not sure Gold Coast has got to that yet. I'm not sure about Sydney either. But what I do know is there's two ways to go about it — you either get your local community involved to try and push that, which is hard, right?

[05:43] Because it's like a one-person-at-a-time thing, or you just pay good money to get acts, or music, or the fanfare, or whatever else. But City2Surf do that pretty well. Yeah — running across the Sydney City2Surf course, it's shorter, right, being 14K. But there's always a brand activation, and they're always pushing each other to do bigger and better things — there's something going on always, a lot of music, a lot of local artists doing their thing. And to me, it's a hard one

[06:14] because if you put in — say you put in a music act, down at — we don't go down as far as Burleigh, but say at Broadbeach, for example, as you're running the marathon — isn't the crowd more focused on a proper music act than the actual runners? So at the same time, you bring people there to watch something, but they're not there to watch what you actually brought them there to support. So I think there's a fine balance between how you get that community aspect. If you can work that out, you've probably got a pretty good job running a marathon here in Australia.

[06:46] Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing I would be doing if I was involved with that is the surf clubs — I'd be getting onto the surf clubs and going, hey, how do we — we'll provide the sausages for you this morning, we want you all out there. If the marathon runs past your surf club, that's good, we want you out there with a barbecue, so it gives people something to eat, and then while they're sitting there eating their sausages, and maybe use the surf club's

[07:16] iconic colours as a way to brand or activate that section of the marathon. And schools is the other one too, because kids bring the vibe, kids bring the atmosphere. It's the kids putting their hands out asking for high-fives that makes me, as an average jogger, feel like I'm special. When a kid asks me for a — you're used to needing a high-five or an autograph and all the rest of it. But when someone like me runs along and gets that from a kid — I get this at Noosa

[07:46] every year — when you're running the Noosa run course at the end of the triathlon and you're knackered, and you're cooked, and you're crying, and you want to stop, and those little kids stick their hand out for a high-five, or hold up a sign, or squirt you with a water gun — it is the best feeling. Yeah, you feel like a star. I feel like they're the centre of the race, don't you? You do — you feel like you're winning the race, you know what it actually feels like to win, and that's as close as you'll get to it. So if you're organising a race, find a way

[08:18] to get the kids invested as being a part of it. So which race do you support, 'cause you've got to put your eggs in one basket — you've got the half marathon on the Saturday, and then the marathon on the Sunday. It's got to be — more people are running the half this year, are they? Oh, hopefully, I'm right on that — we're going to find that out when we have someone from Gold Coast Marathon on. Yeah, 'cause when it becomes a two-dayer, it's got to be

[08:51] the marathon, that's your key feature, that's your big moment. Yeah, that's your entrée — the half is the entrée, the marathon is your main, and all your post-event stuff is your dessert. I'm — 15,000, I don't know what year this was from, but 15,000 runners in the full marathon, over 10,000 in the half. OK, so easy — put it in the marathon. Next point about that, from an event-creation perspective — unlike City2

[09:27] Surf, I don't know if the Sydney Marathon or the Melbourne Marathon does this, I know the Gold Coast Marathon doesn't really do it — the next thing I'd be doing is taking that idea that's kind of been danced around a little bit, the music-festival atmosphere, and, in the way LIV Golf — here we go, yep, LIV Golf — for those that aren't aware, this event that happens in Adelaide, the LIV

[09:57] Golf event that happens in Adelaide, has been punctuated the last two years by a big act, a big-name DJ, both years. So Fisher was two years ago — I think he might have been there this year too — Fisher was last year, and this year it was Dom Dolla. So you get the natural party crowd that turns up for the sport, but then you get this huge rush of people that turn up for the act itself. Why can't marathons put an exclamation point with a big

[10:28] music act at the end? There's no reason they can't. Well — imagine that — let's — that's what they did the other week at the women's half marathon at the Nike — the "She Runs" after-dark thing. Yep, DJs and that type of thing driving it, but — put that big-name act — I mean, I'd be interested in this, like, Gold Coast Marathon — we'll just use Gold Coast because it's here — how many of those runners — but you're talking about getting the audience there. Yeah.

[10:58] To support. Yeah, yeah. Because I just wonder how many of the runners would actually then show up to an act after running a marathon. So I think there's — do you think — but it's not the runners you want there. No, I agree, it's the — well, think about the audience. What happens at the turnaround point? What's the party area called at LIV Golf — the party hole? Think — if you had the party corner, where you do the U-turn — the party turn, the halfway house. You should trademark that.

[11:28] Halfway house. And you build a bit of a grandstand, however you did it — yes, so as you do the turn, whatever kilometre it is down there, you're coming to that place to really rock it. And then maybe there's another one — I don't think Runaway Bay's got quite the same vibe as Burleigh, but — the home turn. The turn for home. OK, this — yes, Courtney, my brain's firing now, here we go. Gold Coast Marathon, you can have this for free, and any other marathons that want to take it.

[12:01] You have that. You build a grandstand called the Halfway House. Now the expectation is free entry into the Halfway House until it hits capacity, but the expectation is you have someone — an MC — you have music rolling, you have a DJ who's also capable of MC-ing and hosting the grandstand. The expectation is, as the pacers roll past, it's like when the golfers hit a hole-in-one on the party hole — everyone has to lose their minds. So, I'll give you an example.

[12:32] It's like, we're at the Halfway House, Gold Coast Marathon, and then — get ready, here comes the three-hour bus — all these people going for the sub-three, and everyone's just throwing beers and all that sort of stuff. Throwing beers at 6am? Why not! And these people aren't running, they're there to enjoy the atmosphere and create the atmosphere — get them sauced up, serve them. Well, I think there's plenty of people out on course, you can get them into one spot, I suppose.

[13:02] Then you leave the other parts of the course where you want people, because you want that atmosphere — the whole race kind of takes away a bit from there. Who knows. Anyway — I like talking about runs and that type of thing. ASICS Speed Race — did you see this one, up in Tokyo? I saw some of it leading into it, I haven't seen any of the results from it though. Yeah, I don't know why this one caught — of all the running things we talk about, this one caught my attention more than most. Partly because Hayden, the triathlete, was going for the

[13:33] New Zealand 10K record — that's what got me interested initially, but then I looked at it as a bigger thing. So the idea was, ASICS put on this race, supported by World Athletics as well — a live-telecast, limited elite race with the goal of breaking records, and I think they launched their new shoe at the same time. Now, the way they did it, around the marathon stadium — I forget what it's called up there, the Tokyo Stadium — they went around on the road, they ran the — oh sorry, the world-record lights went along as they were

[14:03] running, so akin to the swimming pool where you see the red line in front of the swimmers on the telecast — they had this for the runners, yes, right — they were running against the world-record line, and you could see those lights for a lot of it. Now, in the end, no world record, but ten area records, ten national records, and 48 personal bests is what they got out of it. Wow. A few big notable mentions were the Aussies — have you heard of Sam Clifford?

[14:33] Nope. Well, you should, because he's now the Australian 10K record holder — chattered 10 — 27:34, 27:34. So the first thing I did was, I said the same thing — I'd never heard of him, which is really bad, I hadn't heard of Sam. So I went across to his — searched him, went across to his Instagram — our Australian record holder, get around this fella, he's now the quickest 10K runner in Australia and he needs support.

[15:03] That's an indictment — I've got more followers than Sam Clifford does on Instagram. No, Instagram's not the be-all and end-all, but we're talking about — you're not considered a "run influencer" now? I am — I'll tell you what, I'm not, until I'm back running again. But seriously, this goes into the conversation we've had multiple times, so we don't need to have it again — the ability to perform is one thing, the ability to create noise is the other. The performance ultimately should be more

[15:33] important, and it is more important — but if you're not able to make the noise, maybe you can't get the support you need to continue driving that performance. Yeah, but how old's Sam? I don't know much about him. Me neither, me neither, I haven't done any research on that — that was literally when I opened it up, I was like, "oh wow, that happened." And he's 22. OK, and Izzy Doyle — also who I do know, yes, we do know — also breaking the Australian record there with a 30:44. So did they count it from a world

[16:07] record perspective? Yeah, yeah, yes — because there's this strange thing where sometimes it doesn't count because it's not a ratified race or something like that. But this was in partnership with World Athletics. OK, so — ASICS, World Athletics — so we now have two new Australian records. Awesome, awesome. And a couple of American ones went too, and a few others. Great initiative to watch, it was like watching running — you know, it was — except for the world-record dotted line of lights that were going

[16:39] along the road. Realistically, if I wasn't a runner and I turned it on, I probably wasn't going to stay watching that thing. Can I — OK, yeah, continue — that's just an honest appraisal of watching that event. Whoa — I commentate footy, and I've been involved — I do play-by-play for AFL, sideline for NRL, and I'm involved with cricket, I understand sport commentary.

[17:14] What would make running commentary better? I don't know, you're the expert, tell me. First thing that jumps to mind, honestly — and I think baseball in America might have flirted with this idea — is a non-traditional commentator. Running experts aren't traditionally mainstream commentators, right?

[17:45] And it's this balance of expertise versus entertainment. Why couldn't you insert a — I don't want to say Kevin Hart, because he's American, but I'm trying to think of an Australian equivalent — somebody into the commentary box. I mean, Roy and HG, right, used to go for the Olympics and people loved it, but that was piss-taking. So that's great for a

[18:16] wider audience, but it doesn't actually help the runners in the best way for the sport. So you've still got to think about how you evolve the sport, make it interesting to a wider audience who don't necessarily want to participate in running but are interested in watching it too — and taking the piss out of runners isn't the way forward. I agree. So I was going to say comedy, and then I thought, nah, backtrack. What I reckon does work well is when, say, City2Surf is on,

[18:47] or some of the runs around the country that run in the morning, and they integrate it into the morning shows — yes, so you're not necessarily watching the whole running event, but it's like you're waiting to see what happened in the race, without sitting there non-stop waiting. You go off to something else that's interesting at the time, whether that's run-related or something else, and it's the fact that you're watching these endurance events — you're just not sitting there watching someone repetitively run, because the majority of your normal average

[19:17] breakfast-show viewer isn't going to last with that. OK, here's an idea — the sport I think running should take inspiration from, from a commentary perspective, is surfing. Let me explain — surfing, in the last ten years, has made a huge leap forward in the way it broadcasts the sport. They do an incredible job with picture-in-picture, and knowing how to use content to fill the lulls between sets.

[19:50] Maybe what running needs to do is embrace more of a studio-show-style setup that's essentially the main focus of the broadcast until there's action — i.e. you take the start line live, the start of the race live, that's an exciting moment, build that, then you revert back to your studio format with the race in picture-in-picture, right? And that's not — well, it's background noise, right — the footage is there, the race itself is in the background, whilst the content that you've

[20:24] built has your guests rolling, your experts rolling — you go morning-show style, or evening-show style, whatever it is, night-time-sports setup, with planned content to engage people throughout the broadcast, with the ability to cut back when there's a move, an injury, a significant moment on the course — a "Heartbreak Hill," for example — let's see how the lead group attacks this — and then your expert jumps in and goes, watch out for this guy, because this is where he'll

[20:55] attack, this is his race plan. I'm assuming a lot of pre-planning knowledge and all that sort of stuff, and then the finish, obviously — but you have the ability to go in and out of the race coverage without the monotony of the full race. Yeah, I can see that working — you know, we talk about Jelly Roll and guests like that, you mentioned him doing a little bit of a set in between, but they've also got a genuine interest in running in some shape or form.

[21:25] So I think that's what we need — that style of a celebrity or person to be — but who also has a genuine appreciation for the sport. Wow. And then they're putting those elites on a pedestal, because that's what's not happening at the moment. You haven't got that real core audience driving running, and some of those celebrity-style people who are running — what I'm not seeing at the moment is them appreciating — well, "appreciating" is the wrong word, but they're not

[21:55] actually amplifying the runner, are they? So let me give you a guest lineup as an example, right — for City2Surf, Sydney Marathon, Gold Coast Marathon — you've got your hosts, and look, if there's enough cash, get Carl and Sarah Abo from Today, or whoever you decide on — maybe it's Courtney and Liam if the cash is right — but you wheel in Dave Hughes. Yep, Hughesy's a runner. Yep, right, and not a bad

[22:27] runner either, he's a decent runner. You wheel in Hughesy for ten minutes and talk to him about running, but also about everything else, and Hughesy will have the ability to engage and entertain you. Then you wheel in the premier for a five-minute chat about what this event means, all the rest of it. Then you go and get — he probably wouldn't come on today — but Sam Mac. Sam Mac is a great everyday communicator. And then you bring in a past champion of the race, all the while jumping back to your on-

[23:00] course reporter, like they do in surfing, where they go out to whoever's in the lineup to give a report on what's coming, and the swell that's coming. You have someone at the base of Heartbreak Hill, you have somebody at that home turn to give you an on-course update. I think it needs a bit of work — to be honest with you, I still wouldn't tune in from what we just presented there. I need more, I need more, Liam. All right, but there was something you wanted to get to about Hayden — because after smashing his 10K record.

[23:32] He ran 27:39, and you know what I thought that night? I thought, this kid — he's not a kid, he's untouchable. We watched Alex Yee, we talked about that, in triathlon, doing the marathon — but to me this is way more impressive, this 27:39. I thought, wow, he's on fire — and the next day, he gets hit by a car in Japan. Four broken ribs, scapula broken,

[24:04] injured lungs, can't leave. I saw this morning they've actually got him trying to get to Europe, to go and finally fly — but obviously with the lungs, he hasn't been able to travel. I mean, talk about going from a high — not just a high, a high where I was thinking, "he's not going to get beaten the next day" — to now he can't even get out of hospital, leave the country, and get on a plane. Have you ever been hit by a car? I haven't been hit by a car, no, and touch wood, I never do get

[24:36] hit by a car, but — the ups and downs of sport. How old is he? I'd be taking a guess, but I reckon he's around twenty-six — twenty-four, twenty-five, twenty-six. Yeah, he's 27. Just — when's a triathlete's prime, roughly? Well, we used to say towards the late 20s into early 30s, but they're proving everyone wrong at the moment — like, he's in his prime, and he's been up there with Alex and them since

[25:08] they were kind of like 22 — even Alistair Brownlee and those fellas came through it like that, young 20s. When you hear about an athlete suffering the injuries Hayden just did, I guess I have a tendency to still think about it from a football perspective, where the concern is always, are they capable of coming back and being what they were? With Hayden, as a triathlete, is that a risk — that he can't come back and be what he was? Yeah, I mean, I'm just reading what I'm saying here —

[25:39] the only thing is, nothing seems to have — it's all upper body, which is a great thing, right, like if you put something in the legs, I think you'd have more considerations. But everything's upper — scapula can heal. I got hit by a car once. Did you tell us? Very slowly — it was a very slow-motion crash, riding in the park. It was — the only safe place to ride your bike in Sydney — just doing laps around Centennial Park. And for anybody that knows it, you'll know the Grand Drive, which comes down from Paddington there.

[26:09] There's also a kind of offshoot — a little slip road, I guess. Now, you're all going around the park, and the cars are all going around the park clockwise — and this genius in his car decided he wanted to turn up that slip road, and just went straight across the bike lane, right? And I saw him, because I'm paranoid, and I jumped on the front brakes, and I ended up

[26:39] still going into his door. And he got out of the car, didn't ask how I was, said, "You saw me turning?" I'm like, that's not how this works. Did he have right of way in normal circumstances? Well, no, 'cause he's turning across the bike lane — you have to wait for the bikes to pass. Yeah, yeah, you don't get right of way to turn across the bike lane. He tried to tell me, "I put my indicator on" — I'm like, that's not how this works. And the best part was, I was

[27:12] a bit shaken up, and this other older cyclist — an old Lycra legend — came walking across in his cleats, and sprayed him, tore him an absolute new one — like, we come in here to get safe from you idiots. Because I know Centennial has run through there a bit — has it got busier with the population boom over the years? Is it nuts

[27:42] in there in the morning? I imagine it's what Central Park in New York is like — it's flat-chat from pre-sunrise to sundown. Do they still have the horses going around? Where do the horses come from, I've always wondered. I've seen them — well, there's stables just behind it, they're not the racehorses, no, they don't come over from Randwick — there's little stables in there next to what they call the Entertainment Quarter and Fox Studios. There's some little stables there, so people stable their horses there just so they can come into

[28:13] Centennial. Yeah, geez, are they like boat berths — that must cost, like, central Sydney money. I want to know, does anyone know how much it costs to stable your horse next to Centennial Park, because I'm assuming it's not cheap. Well, here's what I'll give you — I'll rank these people for you. There's "running rich" — the people who get the fancy shoes. There's "bike-rider rich" — the people who get the fancy bikes. Then there's "horse rich" — people who can afford horses — and then there's "boat rich," right?

[28:44] That's how I'll rank them — runners, riders, horse riders, boat owners. Stable somewhere in between, like a private garage, and literally a berth down at Rose Bay. Yeah, OK, that's how I'd rank them. Hey, let's keep on this Ironman theme, have a listen to this — right, Cameron, new Ironman world record on the bike, how did it feel? What was your nutrition plan on the bike today?

[29:14] Nutrition on the bike, I always separate in the bottles — it's always hydration, and I obviously go with Maurten, and also use some of the fuel from Momentous, it's actually a new product they've just released, in the bottles just for the salt-sodium content. I've aimed for about 1500 milligrams per hour, and then in the fuel bottles, the gels — sorry — I go

[29:44] with the PowerBar, because again it's got a huge amount of sodium, and Amex — same thing, 200 milligrams of sodium each gel in total. I had, yeah, 28 gels. What's that, around 900 — such — close to 200, a bit over 200 grams per hour on the bike, 200-fuel. So yeah, pretty happy with my fuelling. You need a fair bit of fuel if you've got a ride like that. Explain to me what I just heard. Well, you heard there was a lot of nutrition talk going on that even though I wasn't catching everything, like, he's got — I think

[30:16] there were a few sponsor call-outs, and a few were like, "this is the real stuff I'm taking" — it was a happy medium. But let's just focus on — so he rode three hours, 53 and 32. So for those who don't know Cam Wurf — Cam is an Aussie triathlete now, but he'd have to be one of the most versatile endurance athletes we've ever had in Australia. He rode at the Olympics, then went on to ride for Team Sky Cycling. I'm not sure he was ridden in

[30:46] the Tour, but he's definitely been a domestique in some of the Grand Tours, and he still does that — he'll shoot off and do that, and then he's also top-ten at Hawaii Ironman. Oh wow, yeah. So he's doing that cycling while he's racing. So this is at an Ironman he's done, he's broken the world record on the bike — I mean, handy bike rider, so that helps — but let's just focus on his nutrition for a moment. We'll talk a lot about how many carbs you should take on and all that in running — what did you say, 200 grams?

[31:16] Grams per hour, per hour. OK, but — think everyone out there who's probably listening to us has had an energy gel in their hand before? Yeah. Think you're trying to stomach 28 of them — is that how many made up 200 grams? No, that's what he said, he had 28 gels — 28 gels in under 4 hours. Even if you weren't exercising, just think of the mass of trying to get that into your gut — 28 gels. So this idea of how much

[31:49] fuel you can get into your body, it's just going from strength to strength, and how much you can absorb — obviously someone like Cam would have been training his body over time to get up to these amounts. We used to say like 60 grams on average was a good goal, when you're on Gatorade and that type of stuff. Then they brought out the dual-mix fuels, like the Beta Fuel from SIS and that type of thing — with Maurten, we're up around that kind of 90 grams, then with multiple ways of

[32:21] getting that fuel in — then there's talk of, if you can train your body, trying to get up to 120 grams. This is the first time I've heard of 200, and this is wild — and it worked. I'm trying, because I'm trying to picture this — you're still on the — I'm trying to picture this in normal food, do you know what I mean? Like you talk about gels and all that sort of stuff, and I'm trying to picture what Cam just described in terms of fuelling himself for this record-breaking ride, and what that would look

[32:51] like on a plate. Imagine — I'm not on a saddle riding a bike and trying to suck down gels, I'm trying to imagine the idea of it — I'm sitting there at a table, put it on a plate in front of me. OK, so — pasta, cooked pasta, has approximately — in a 200-gram serve you'd have 70 grams of carbohydrates. So what are you doing — 350 would be a kilo, is that right? 350 grams would be a kilo

[33:23] of pasta. So that's what he's needing to take on, an hour — no, he's doing 200 grams an hour. I'm the worst mathematician in the world, by the way, so it sounds like — anyone out there — but it's a lot of food, or a lot of grams, or a lot of carbs, I'm confused. It's a lot. A lot, a lot. Why has it changed so much? Why has the attitude changed — is it just because we didn't know, or was it the idea?

[33:54] Because it feels like now, it's becoming — I think it's Ross Edgley, the ultra guy who swims the world records around the island of England and does all these incredible things — he's mates with Chris Hemsworth — he's talked about the fact that it's just a matter of, like, as many grams as you can fit into your body. I'm paraphrasing, but you know what I mean — it's just about eating to fuel the engine. And I mean, that's — low, and

[34:26] I think what Ross Edgley's doing is always very low-intensity — like, he's swimming around England with logs or something — I don't know, he definitely fits into that "content side of endurance," like we've been trying to make things interesting — but we're talking about a guy who's just gone and broken the world record, done the fastest Ironman bike split, taking — yeah — 200 grams of carbohydrate. So, well — how many gels — I was going to say, what did he do off the bike?

[34:57] Because if he delivered that unbelievable ride, do you know what he did off the bike? Because I'd be fascinated to know. I know at the Hawaii Ironman, Cam ran — he ran down around the two-40s. Jeez, that's ridiculous. Cam Wurf's Ironman splits — by the way, I'm just doing a bit of googling in the meantime — and Ross Edgley, who's attempting a new world-record swim, where it's like 1,780 miles

[35:28] or something, but he's consuming 10,000 calories a day. I did — the one I did see was, because Red Bull were kind of helping out and involved in the production when he swam around England — and like, the actual fate of, you know, anyone doing marathon paddles across oceans, or runs across Australia, or whatever it is — it's always the focus point that gets left out is necessarily how far the distance is, because this is happening every

[35:59] day. But think of being in the water that long every day — kind of like, you know, when you sit in the bath and your fingers start to wrinkle up. He was wearing wet suits too, so he had these deep gashes — think of the worst rash you've ever got, running in between your legs, and think of that cutting up and being open wounds, and then think of going and doing that day on day on day, of just whacking Vaseline on that — and that's the kind of thing that gets you. That's what gets you, average

[36:29] — per — you want to know how you can get people interested in watching running? I mean, that's what interests people, is it's that kind of, "oh God, imagine that" — the sunburn, all of that type of thing. But he's an interesting guy, that Ross Edgley. Around that — Cam Wurf, yes, 2:50 he ran into — OK, so he still delivered a hell of a run. His personal best for the marathon, for his running, is 2:44.

[36:59] OK, so that's still running a really good time. Still running a really good time, OK, very nice. If anyone's done more gels than that, let us know — I don't think anybody has. Yeah, we're going with random things today, but I've got one on — it's about hiking, but think of the trail runners out there — have a listen to this, and I'll have a discussion on trail running. "There are soulful walking trails, and there are ones that aren't. Soulful ones are the magical ones that resonate with our origins, that calm the mind and

[37:29] invite wonder — they're the ones that mimic game trails, the ones that meander unobtrusively through the landscape, gradually revealing the way, the ones that have a natural, uneven, ever-changing surface. When hiking trails begin to share more and more characteristics of urban environments, there's a clear problem — the replacement of natural imperfections with over-engineered precision, exchanging rock and soil for boardwalks and pavement, prioritising functionality over fun. That is what is meant when we say that hiking is losing its soul." What do I think is driving this

[37:59] change? Ecotourism, like any industry, is motivated by turning a profit — these modern hiking trails are designed to appeal to a mass demographic, one that is much larger than the — I'll leave it there, I'll put in the notes where this came from, it's on YouTube. But the idea — take it this way — some of these hiking trails, because more and more people are going out to see the best spots, they're happening to urbanise the way the trails are made — you've got duckboards, they're putting in concrete.

[38:29] The whole idea, though, of originally getting out in the bush and going hiking, and being out there, is all about adventure — making your own way, the challenge — even of just walking on uneven ground. Like when we say a "grade 4 trail" to get somewhere, you've got to think, well, can I do that — there's a challenge to get there. We're dumbing down everything. So that's the hiking world talking. OK, now take that across to trail running — this is my passion, I love — like we talked about, me on the bike today — I love going out in the bush, I love it even more when there's

[39:00] no track, I've got to find my own way, there's no track there, and it's so hard to follow that you're going wrong all the time and you've got to go back and retrace your steps. It's about the adventure — has trail running, is that what the world is becoming now? Are we just taking away the best of everything, and how far does this go? Well, inevitably, let's start with the absolutes.

[39:31] Trail running has never been more popular — correct, never been more popular, and you've got to share it with walkers, and other — and bikes, and horses — the trails. That's a fact. And because of the booming popularity, I think it makes sense to make the trails safer. I think it would be negligent to just go, "oh, there's more people on this — oh, well, we won't do anything about it."

[40:01] I think we should do something about it if there's an opportunity to make it safer and more enjoyable for everybody out there. I think there's people like you who are constantly looking for adventure, and not difficulty, but more raw — OK, who wants to raw-dog it — yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll take it, because I mean, I know the reality is, yes — one, safety — two, is if you get too many people on a trail, the environment just can't handle

[40:32] it. And we saw that during COVID — places like Upper Twin Falls, and places that shouldn't get that amount of foot traffic, it just killed the places, and they've had to address that with concrete and a whole range of things. But I'm going to put to you in a different way, another question — should we sacrifice some of the best spots and allow everyone to get there, for the purpose of saving other amazing locations? Or should every location in

[41:03] Australia be treated equally? No, I don't think so, and I'm going to go back to — you don't think so? Which way — I don't think — when I say "everyone should be able to go everywhere," that's not the way I'd say it — I don't think everyone should go to — and I know I've leaned a bit on surfing in this episode, and I'm going to lean on surfing again. Surfing has a natural selection about it, right — if you're good enough, you can take it on. I like this.

[41:33] If you're good enough at surfing, you'll go out at Chopes. If you're good enough at surfing, you'll go out on the North Shore of Hawaii. There's another element there, I haven't even got into the localism aspect of that. When ex-tropical Cyclone Alfred came through, if you were good enough, you went out in those conditions, right? But there's still waves that, if you're not good, if you're beginning, you can go surf on a small day — you can go surf Elliott's because you can. We shouldn't —

[42:04] the ocean doesn't dumb itself down or make itself any easier or safer so that everyone can have a go at everything. And I think trails, and the outdoor adventure-racing world, should be the same — I think you should be of a certain standard to tackle certain terrain and certain environments. And if you want to tackle that terrain, the terrain shouldn't have to be dumbed down for you — you should become capable, you should improve your capabilities to take it on, and that's part of what's happening — it's also happening in

[42:35] mountain-bike trails that have been around for a long time, where because more and more people are getting in there, they're cutting bee-lines, or taking rock ledges out, and a whole range of things. Yeah, let's stay on the surfing thing, because you just pricked my memory on this — Gara Gara Loo Station is for sale, over in WA — yeah, yeah — and it's home to the famous break known as Tombstones. And from what I've read anyway, it's allowed surfers pretty much to go there and camp, and it's allowed surfers to go in, and it is a natural-selection

[43:07] thing — if you surf it, you can access it. The big worry now is, if it gets sold, the new owner could rightfully limit access there, except if you went there by boat around the coastline. So now we're not talking about the other style of, like, national parkland — we're just talking about private property. But the actual surf break, Tombstones, is out the front of this private property.

[43:37] The current owners, sounds like for years and years, they've just welcomed it, they love it — they come and surf it. But you know what happens when there's a new owner, or a commercial company buys it, and wants to make ecotourism out of it — suddenly you've got to pay to play. The nature of that break, I would argue, doesn't lend itself to monetisation — that's not a, hey, it's — it's also, as we said, it's self-selecting, it's not a "hey, come give this a try" sort of surf break, right.

[44:09] So I don't know how much money there would be to be made — the people who are big-wave surfers aren't cashed-up humans, like, they're not — they fund their lifestyle, that's it, right, these aren't on the Forbes list of athletes. But with that in mind — what you just said, it's a good point — Twiggy Forrest is the perfect bloke to buy this, because I think Twiggy Forrest is the sort of guy who gets it, and would go, yeah, I'm buying this, go surf the break.

[44:39] I'm not going to monetise it. And you shouldn't be able to monetise that, right, because you don't own the ocean. No, you might have — but the new owner might not want to monetise that at all, they just might not give a crap about surfing, and they might want to put eco-lodges on their property, because there's a beautiful — sounds like the new owner's a dick. No, no, I don't — I don't know that, we're talking fictional here. It made me think, when we're talking back — getting back to the running side, and this idea of sacrifice — 'cause everyone wants to get to the highlight spot to get their Instagram

[45:09] photo, right? So what I'm proposing is — is there a world where we sacrifice — you nearly need to sacrifice some spots, commercialise it, ecotourism it, whatever it is — that's the hike that the masses are going to do, you get to see the best of the best, because that's the photo that everyone's after — kind of like that horseshoe, is it in Arizona or wherever, where everyone goes up on top of the canyon — you can't stop it, so let that one be run, but let's sacrifice that one for

[45:40] everyone, and then keep the other ones wild — keep the other ones — you know, I think, yeah, I think if you've got to make a choice, I would side with that choice. This is happening with mountain climbing, with Everest — yeah, I saw that one, I saw that. This is happening with Everest — the logjam that happens at whatever that section of Everest is called, up near the top, is insane. But if you've seen what they've done just recently — the new — I don't know if it's a law or whatever it is, and someone will call me

[46:12] out on exactly what it is — but they've said, you'll now have had to have hiked a certain number of 7,000-metre peaks before you can apply for a permit to hike Everest. So you've got to have shown you've gone elsewhere, got the experience, done it, and then you can come to Everest. I don't know if that's gone through, but I did read an article on something like that — just pulled it up — this came out a week ago: "A report says a draft of a new law suggests Nepal will issue Everest permits only to climbers with experience and proof of having scaled at least one of the

[46:42] other Himalayan nations' 7,000-metre peaks in the future. As a result, it will mean those who had the cash but lacked the experience to scale the mountain will no longer be allowed access." Love it, love it — this already exists to some degree with UTMB, because to get a spot in UTMB you have to have acquired what they call "running stones," through other ultra-trail races around the world — kind of a qualification. And I don't have a problem with it.

[47:12] And I think, yeah, you've got to pay to play in a sense, but not just pay — you've got to pay with your body. Well, that Everest stuff's been going on for a long time, hey, and it looks like they've finally made a move — and whether it goes through or not is another thing. Yeah, good one. Hey, a week doesn't go by where we're not going to talk about Strava, and what's going on. I opened Strava for the first time in a long time, Liam, and do you know what popped up? Performance predictions. I got the same thing.

[47:43] It's across the board. OK, that's good news, that's good news. Now, I haven't run — I haven't put anything into Strava in at least six weeks, so on my graph at the moment it was like, "here's how fast we think you could run each distance. These times are compared to your predictions from thirty days ago." I hadn't been running thirty days ago. So when we're talking about AI

[48:14] and how things work — I think I'm going to tell you the times in a sec — before, this would have been probably similar times, and actually it's probably running slightly quicker before I stopped — it's a month out of not exercising, I should still be able to run a 16:49 — so 3:22s for my 5K, any good? No, no, no, I think — I think you'd be burning lungs. Yeah, legs might be able to still do it, but you'd be burning lungs.

[48:45] This is because I've done zero, remember? Yeah. And then a 35:22 — could you do that? No. OK, but then here's where it gets interesting, because the marathon is still predicting I'd run a 3:07 marathon without having run. Could you do that? I could not — I hadn't run for three weeks. Well, I mean, you could make the distance, you could walk — yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, of course I can run quicker than that pace even though I haven't run for three weeks, but then to expect you're

[49:15] going to run at that pace — I love these prediction things. Now, this is the "athlete intelligence" predictions, so it'd be interesting to hear if anyone in the audience has had a look at theirs and gone, "oh geez, I'm—" jump in and have a look. But what I'll tell you, Courtney — what's yours? Did — your performance predictions, what was it saying for the marathon? My performance predictions, Courtney, are only available if I subscribe. You just told me you got them! Well, I did, 'cause I got the flag saying "unlock your full potential," and then it shows me my performance predictions — you've got to pay for them, and

[49:46] I've got to pay attention — it's saying, "we've got them, if you want to know what they are—" we talked about this last week — Strava, understandably, is going to figure out a way — and someone raised a good point on — I know what I'm getting you for your birthday present! Yeah, although I do like the fact we're both not on it, so we've got something to talk about. That idea, someone posted, responded to the video you put up on Instagram about what we talked about, Strava and what it's becoming — them thinking, "surely there's a way to monetise the data that exists on"

[50:17] there. And what I'd say to that is — yep, I reckon they probably are, I reckon Strava are doing exactly that, monetising all the data that exists on the platform. I'd be fascinated to actually go and look at the T's and C's of Strava, and how much ownership it takes over all the information you put on there from a running perspective. But yeah, they would absolutely be monetising all that athletic data that exists on there to third parties. I love that, without a

[50:47] doubt — you thought you had your predictions, and then — no, they don't — yeah, they said, "oh, we've got them, you've got to pay to see them." Is it like a peep show? OK, what would tip you over the scales to pay? So the thing that — 'cause I've given you a lot of — yeah, why — you know, a lot of stuff that I've said, "oh here" and you've — oh, don't get that — what's going to tip the scales, besides my gift — aside from getting back to running, I don't know, I don't know what

[51:19] that threshold is. I know what my threshold was for Spotify Premium, going from standard Spotify where you get hit with an ad every two songs — yeah, because I got sick of listening to ads. Now, if Strava starts throwing up ads, I don't know how that would — I suppose if you're just scrolling, an ad, you just scroll past. I do get that already, I get suggested things when I scroll through. Or maybe I'll get to that point where it takes me so long to get to the thing I want to see or engage with —

[51:50] by the way, I just want to say, I'd like to apologise to all my new Strava followers — this podcast has made me something of — like, suddenly I've got — it's not a lot, I know, 'cause you've got thousands — but I've got 300 people following me on Strava, and I'm not running at all at the moment. So I apologise that this podcast made someone think, "oh, I'll follow him on Strava," and I'm giving you doughnuts. But maybe it'll take — I don't know — scrolling to the point where I can't find any of my friends' runs, to get me to subscribe. That annoys me — I mean, that annoys me

[52:21] on social media, full stop — all you want to see is your mates, and you're just getting spammed with people you follow, you never get to see. If you actually want to see — that's a surefire way of — well, they're trying to get you to pay money to advertise, but it's a surefire way of people not spending time on those platforms. Onto a few things from last week — so Wings for Life World Run — yeah, how'd it go? It's a global thing, the Wings for Life World Run — literally all the money that goes into it gets sent 100% to fund cures for spinal-cord research.

[52:52] So I met some people — and I'm going to get this wrong for sure — on Sunday night I caught up with a few of the wheelchair-bound athletes who were participating in the run, 9pm at night. So that's the reason so many of us, and so many athletes, and so many people from the universities, go out and support this — all that money's going to fund it. So down at Griffith University, they're getting some of that money to help with their program to go out and do this. Now, on the running front, Joe Fukuda, who's won the Gold

[53:24] Coast Marathon before, was the global winner. Really! How far do you reckon he ran — it was in Japan, and it was night-time too — I've seen these runs before, and I know some of the winners do insane distances. Oh — 50 — no, he went out for a 71-kilometre trot. Yeah, that'll do. And over in Germany, Esther — 59 kilometres for the women's winner as well. So they get out there, but it's got to run in the daytime — beautiful — this is unfair, like, Germany, I'm

[53:54] looking at the photo, it looks very nice compared to running at night in Japan. But it's a great event, it's a great event, alright. Where — how are you, how's the running? Well, there is no running at the moment — quick run update for me. I think last time we spoke it was all — it was rosy, it was all rainbows and honey. I went for a light tempo run and it went badly. I am — Benita and I have been talking — I am a cross-trainer for now, I'm sticking with the cross

[54:24] training. I'm physio-ing, I'm rehabbing, I'm trying to keep the fitness base up as much as possible, and train while getting this calf right, so that I can essentially get to the start line and try and run my best. But yeah, I would like to declare that stationary bikes are the devil, they are the worst, they are so boring. OK, so are you on one like a Zwift, where you're looking at a screen or anything, what are we talking? No, I'm just on one of those spin-class-type bikes

[54:56] at the gym. Oh, OK, it's like an assault bike. Yeah, and they're so boring, man, they're just — 70 minutes on one of those things is paint-dryingly boring. I'm sure listeners are sitting there going, "get some kind of Zwift where you can put your—" done those, and you stare at yourself as an avatar, right? That's boring too, yeah. I agree — although I do get some weird satisfaction — I've still got an old ergo-style, like a big

[55:28] wind fan, so think of a metre-wide fan, and I just drive that fan — the harder you drive it, the harder it gets, there's no magnetic technology or anything like that, it's full old-school. I get a satisfaction out of hurting myself on that — and when I say hurting myself, just driving, just listening to music, driving the bike — there's something to it, it's like running a hard rep, it's like doing something where it's just satisfaction out of doing the work. How much time would you spend on a stationary bike like that, back in the day when you were

[55:59] training full-time? I'd have been doing two sessions at least on that in big gear — like, generally we'd do big-gear work on it, every week — so a warm-up, warm-down, plus 70 minutes, so two, three-minute efforts, with, say, 30 seconds' rest, and I'd be loading up on that for big-gear work. So it was strength work at the same time, and sitting my heart rate right on threshold. And what, so you're spending like 90 minutes on that bike? Would have been 90 minutes, yeah. There were times when I was doing longer training, and like some of the best Ironman

[56:32] riders, like triathletes in the world, will do this — they'll spend four or five hours on those, just because when you're doing time-trial efforts and you want to sit right on that effort, it's so much easier to do it — you're so — there's a lot of benefit that comes out of it, where you're just not — there's no braking, you're not on a road, you can't freewheel, it's literally, whatever you're on the bike doing, that's all the effort. So there's a lot of performance benefit that comes out of doing that as well. I think I'd almost rather do anything else — it is so — and I think this is because I would love, at

[57:02] some point down the track, more potentially next year, I don't know, to do an Ironman, I really would — but the knowledge of what's required from a bike-training perspective, and sitting on that bike, I just don't know if I could do it. Anyway, I'm not enjoying bike cross-training, but that's all I can do at the moment. Do you know what I am attempting to do at the moment — I'm doing the rehab, I'm doing the strength training, doing the cross-training, I'm actually trying to lean up a little bit. I'm trying to focus in, because my weight, like we've talked about before, it begins and ends at the fridge

[57:33] for me. I am trying to shed some kilos, with the simple, brain-and-mind thinking that if you're a little bit lighter, maybe the calf won't suffer as much. So what's the current strategy to do that? Don't eat as much crap, stop eating sugar, and — has it worked, are you doing it? Well, 'cause I reckon when I did that challenge a couple of weeks ago, I dropped about three or four kilos — I reckon I've put about 75% of that back on. Well, that's what they say about the majority of people who diet, right? Yeah, exactly. What about you?

[58:05] Well, the irony is, we talk about running and neither of us are actually running. But that's about to change, because I am — like I said, greenlit, I'm back. I've got to ask the people who are helping me first before I say what's going on, but here we go. Yeah, I want to make sure I'm not putting it on — but what I can tell you is, I've got a good strategy for the next month, and it's conservative — we're not rushing back, we're not — so there's two schools of thought, I suppose,

[58:35] coming back from this type of bone injury, or so I'm told — this is the information I'm being given — that literally, once the bone's clean, you just progressively load up and get back to running, there's no reason you can't. However, I mean, I've already spent that time being conservative and not doing things, why rush into this? Good point. So the main thing is, for an extended period of time, I won't look to do — and hold me to this, please — I'm not going to look at running double days, sorry — back-to-back-to-

[59:06] back-to-back days. Can I say — yeah, don't. Well, it's something I'd probably want to do, like, I need to get back quick, let's do double days, you know, but — OK, no back-to-back days, no back-to-back days running, for the foreseeable future, until we get a handle on what's going on. But what I like about that is, because my first thought was, "ah damn, how am I going to get back quick enough, because I'm not going to be running" — and then I thought, you know what, the reality is, maybe this is a blessing, because — I'm mountain-biking, cross-

[59:37] training, doing all the other stuff I love to do — that actually gives me a lot of satisfaction. Earlier in the year, I was concentrating on getting back to running a lot more, and I was actually forgoing some of the stuff I enjoyed more, because I wanted to go running — because I was ticking, like we've talked about on Strava, I was watching my case and ticking those boxes. Like, one of the things I enjoy most is going down on a Wednesday morning to swim at Tallebudgera Creek, and I was missing that because I wanted to make sure I got my run

[01:00:07] in — right, and it's probably not the stage of my life I'm at to want to do that. So I still want to, I've still got the aspiration to do the marathon and get back running really quickly — but maybe this is a wake-up call that it shouldn't be at the detriment of all those things I love doing for fitness, and pure fitness. That's a nice message for everybody out there as well, who might be sacrificing the things they love in pursuit of running. Yeah, just make sure it's still worth it — just make sure you're not sacrificing the things that actually make you happy, to be

[01:00:40] running. You can get hooked and overdo it — and I'm not saying that's the best way to attack it — but for me, that's what made me realise — I was over-investing in my running, and partly because of this podcast as well. We're talking about running all the time, we're talking about getting back to running, everything was about running. I love running, it's definitely my number one — but I love being on my bike, I love surfing,

[01:01:11] I love all these other things that create a lot of enjoyment out of my fitness. So I was finding that balance again, of like, how do we get back — and this is a way that's forcing me to do that. Two things — one, I think you've just inspired something we should introduce as part of the podcast going forward, which is non-running-based guests. I think we need to try and find some, perhaps some athletes, or some people who are non-running-based, and start bringing them on the show — we've just got to get some guests first, to give some balance.

[01:01:41] To give some balance, though — the other thing, how do you feel about those influencer videos, where it's like, "come with me as I get ready for—" or "here's my fit—", like, if you were to pick a running-influencer-video style thing that frustrates you the most, or that you cringe the most at, what might it be? Oh God, how long do we — just give me one, just give me one, something that makes you cringe the most. I mean, the "get ready with me" ones, OK, that one — you cringe at

[01:02:12] those, I cringe at those, OK. Because here's what we're doing — you've asked me to hold you to not running back-to-back days, yep — if I catch you out running back-to-back days, you have to do a "get ready with me" video. I could have already been guilty of it, I know, but — you'll label it on the In The Beginning podcast Instagram page, you'll say, "this is my punishment video for running back-to-back days," OK. Yeah, the next one — I thought you were actually giving me a way out.

[01:02:42] No, no, no, you're just giving me a punishment. Well, we've got a — do you — we've got a quick listener question. Yeah, I've got a listener question. So this is — Run Gnomes. Yes. "Hi lads, just listened to your latest episode driving up for the Saturday. I just wanted to throw my thoughts out on the Saucony pronunciation debate — I think those who are calling you out and think you're disrespecting the brand are missing the bigger picture. You're a marketing dream team, think about it — how many episodes is this

[01:03:13] conversation" — and this is the last, this is the last — "how long has this been going on?" — and yeah, laughing out loud at this — you know, they can't even buy this type of advertising for the podcast, it's great — "the kids love listening to it too, in the car — they come down from Brisbane every Saturday to the Gold Coast to do a bit of Muay Thai and go for a run, so they love that — they got excited when they heard the names Liam and Courtney get called out for the runners crossing the finish line at the Gold Coast Marathon, Gold Coast Running Festival,

[01:03:46] last Sunday." We weren't there, we weren't there, but — "that leaves Liam and Courtney?" — nope, they're both injured. So — some questions — so they're obviously down at the beach near Miami — some questions: soft sand versus wet sand for running; soft sand versus wet-sand shoes versus barefoot; road shoes versus trail shoes. So there's three questions there. First one, running on soft sand versus wet sand.

[01:04:18] If you're down at the beach running, run on the flattest surface possible — the way you're going to injure yourself running on the beach is when there's a slope. Yep, so if you're running on the hard sand and it's sloped, no good. If the tide's being good and it's flat, hard sand, go for it — I'd wear shoes on that just to take a bit of the impact out. I love soft sand for a number of reasons — to run, some strength training, coming back in certain ways from injury, I think it's a great way to run, helps your calves, there's a few things there.

[01:04:48] Not for everyone, great for me, yeah. Shoes versus barefoot — a look, each has its place to a degree, I mean shoes — yeah, shoes — you know, like, I'm not anti-barefoot. Like if you're down at the park, or on a grass track where there's nothing — I think it can be a good thing sometimes, to feel free and run. Yeah, I'd wear bare feet around the house more often than not, that probably does help with your feet too. But strengthening your feet, forget the running barefoot or

[01:05:19] shoes — strengthening your feet is something we should all be looking at, whichever way we go about that. And then road shoes versus trail shoes — horses for courses. Yeah, as simple as that — wear the right one for what you need. If you wear trail shoes on the road, I can tell you one thing — the grip's going to get ripped up really quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that rubber's not made for concrete, it's normally really soft rubber. There you go. Alright, there it is, episode 34 in the books again — subscribe, comment, share it with friends, and we'll see you next week. See you later.