EP 27 - RUN LIKE YOU STOLE IT!

[00:00] In the beginning, episode 27 — let's start with the big story. What's the story, Courtney? Eliud Kipchoge is coming to run the Sydney Marathon. It's a big story, the biggest story. What did you think when you heard? I thought it was a very smart move by him. Every time he runs now, people are literally looking for records, so there's a lot of pressure on him to be this sub-two-hour guy every time he races. It's all about time.

[00:31] Sydney has elevation — it's not the course to run a fast time on, and that means he can come here and just concentrate on trying to win a race. This was a bombshell. When I saw the email come through that Sydney had Eliud Kipchoge coming to run it for the first time ever as a major, my mind was blown. And the ripples throughout the running community have been everywhere. It's the biggest story.

[01:01] I've gone deep on this — I've been prepping ahead of wanting to talk about it with you. Do you know what his marathon record is as a professional marathoner, outside of the sub-two-hour project? Vienna is where he broke two hours and became the first human ever to run under it. You've got 21 marathons, 16 wins. That's crazy — he's never finished worse than eighth. He had ten consecutive wins across the marathon from 2014 to 2019. He's running London next month, on the 27th of April, before he comes down here to Sydney.

[01:33] So I've got a bunch of questions I'm going to hit you with. I don't know how good I'll be on the questions, but he's a GOAT, right? There's no argument. You're a lot more excited than I am about this. Yeah, I'm pumped. You're going to Sydney? I want to go and run it — I want to go and do the marathon now. That's changed you — you're 100% in. Yeah, this is a once-in-a-lifetime, money-can't-buy opportunity to say

[02:04] you've run a marathon with the greatest marathoner of all time, in my opinion. That's how I'm viewing it. Four months between races — is that a relatively short turnaround for a marathoner? It probably is if he's trying to chase world records, but like I said, I think this is a smart move: take the money, show up at Sydney Marathon, try to win — time's irrelevant. Let's get to the money in a moment, because that's a talking point too. I've done some research into

[02:34] that. He's never run in Oceania before, so jet lag is another thing that makes it interesting — it's a long way to come compared to racing in Europe or America. I think that adds to it. He's at the age now where, once he's raced Sydney, New York becomes the only major he hasn't done. He's mentioned since the Olympics that he wants to compete in all the majors, so that makes sense. I sound like I'm being negative about this.

[03:04] No, no — this is amazing, him coming down here. You're just not as excited as me. I'm not as excited as you, and I'm also playing the other side of it, being realistic about some of the other factors that might contribute to a decision like this. Yeah, let's get to the money, because that really interests me. Have you done some research? I thought I was going to and didn't get to. No, no — I've done some research. In fact, before you get into the money, can I just quickly say

[03:35] — because I don't want the money to be the whole story, this is a really big talking point on its own. This is a huge win for Sydney as an event. Sydney made that major push, that massive push, to become a major in the last couple of years. They made the decision they wanted to become a major marathon, spent the marketing money to get the field numbers up from a competitive standpoint, made the changes to the course that were necessary, and earned the classification last year.

[04:05] This will be the first year as a major marathon that lands Eliud Kipchoge — in its first year as a major. If there was any doubt about who the pre-eminent, blue-ribbon marathon in Australia is, it's gone now. It's Sydney. Well done — you've got to tip your cap to the race organisers for pulling this off. Speaking of tipping your cap, let's talk about the money, because we genuinely have no idea here. Do you think being the first year as a major, and the fact

[04:36] the majors themselves signed off on it, actually helped tip this over the line? Absolutely, 100% — they'd have to, to make sure it's a success. I've thought more about this whole thing, because we've talked before about the existing marathons in Australia. There really was no other option if you're going to run a scenic, tourism-style marathon in Australia. Gold Coast obviously has the high-rises and the beaches and everything else, but

[05:06] Sydney really is — and I hate saying this — the global capital of Australia. Absolutely. If you're in middle America, if you're in Montana, you'd probably recognise Sydney from the Opera House and the Harbour Bridge. You're not going to recognise Melbourne, you're not going to recognise the Gold Coast. There are certain parts of the world that might, but realistically Sydney and Ayers Rock — Uluru — are the two places foreigners recognise. That's it. The beaches of the Gold

[05:38] Coast, you'd say, I think are more iconic and recognisable internationally than anything Melbourne has to offer. And the other thing about Melbourne's marathon itself is it's not that interesting aside from the finish at the MCG — I'm saying it purely comes down to recognisable global icons. Exactly. And Sydney's got that. When you measure it alongside the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, London with Buckingham Palace and running down the Mall, New York in and of itself, it

[06:10] was the only real option — that's the conclusion I've come to. It wasn't a gimme just because Sydney did the work; money makes it a gimme in a sense — you throw enough money at something and eventually it happens. Money can cover up a lot of those things. So Sydney's a winner here — the city, the marathon itself, the running community in Sydney — they'll all benefit from this.

[06:40] The other winner out of Eliud Kipchoge coming to town is Nike. Nike is a big winner here, for sure. All of the run brands will be looking to make the most of Australia having its first ever major this year in Sydney — hosting events, bringing influencers in, getting people repping their brand, as well as the elite runners themselves.

[07:13] It's about having as many of those 50,000-plus marathoners wearing your kit as possible. I think this instantly tips the scales in favour of Nike for the Sydney race. Eliud Kipchoge, the most recognisable marathoner on the planet, the GOAT, coming down here wearing Nike shoes — he'll be everywhere throughout the city from a branding perspective. It's not just shoes, it's the logos everywhere. And it's on that.

[07:44] This will feel like a Nike event for me — in this first year with Eliud, you don't know what the future holds. Which shoe brand actually sponsors Sydney, do you know? I think it's ASICS. Let me do some quick Googling — this is probably a question some people are going to ask. Yeah, wow — the race itself is presented by ASICS. It's the TCS Sydney Marathon, presented by ASICS. And yet I think the perception will still be it's a

[08:17] Nike event, because the one man everyone keeps bringing it back to is going to take it over. A bit of ambush marketing there from Nike. Now, you're talking as a die-hard runner — you love running. I've got a question that's probably going to rub some people up the wrong way, but it's an honest one: how many people in a marathon are actually just out there running, out of the 30, 40, 50

[08:47] thousand — how many of them even know who wins the race? If you're running the Gold Coast Marathon, how many of those marathoners on the day know who the winner is? Less than 20%, I'd guess. I'd say maybe 10% are aware of who the actual winners are. Do you think that's because it's irrelevant to them, they just don't care, or because the job's not done well

[09:19] enough to make it a thing? And is that where I'm going with this — do you think having Kipchoge here changes that? If he wins or loses, will everyone in that race know or care? Or will that other 80% — the 30 to 40 thousand people just out there running — still not care? I'll give you an example: I don't know who's won the Gold Coast Marathon in any year since I've been competing in it. And you know what, I don't know who's won

[09:49] City2Surf every year I've competed in it either. See, that's wild. For such big events, the winners are almost irrelevant. I think if you're a spectator watching on TV because of the coverage, the result becomes a known thing, but that's a minimal slice of spectators. Maybe this will be different because it'll get shown a bit more, but you've still got to be watching free-to-air TV, happen

[10:21] to be there on a Sunday morning, and be at least half-interested in running. And I think — what do you think? Why do we — why do you think runners, participating in this sport... it's not like tennis or golf, where everyone who plays recreational tennis or recreational golf is going to watch the Masters and know who wins, know who the best players are. But in a sport that's probably got more participation

[10:52] than most sports out there, if not the most participation, people don't seem to care who wins. Why do you reckon that is? Jesus, it's a good question, I haven't really thought about it. I imagine anyone out on their long run is thinking the same thing. Do you care, when you're out running, who the actual winner is, male or female? Does it make a difference to you, going to an event and doing it, knowing who wins?

[11:26] I guess it's one of those rare things — it's unlike any other sport in the world. That's why I now want to go down and run Sydney: I can line up on the same start line as the GOAT, as Eliud Kipchoge, run the exact same course on the exact same day under the exact same conditions, and the only difference is he's going to run it a lot faster than me. I will never be able to walk onto

[11:58] the court with Roger Federer. That's true. I will never be able to take the court with LeBron James. There's this defined line between excellence — the best — and what they're allowed to do, where they play their sport, how they play it, and the conditions under which they play it. Running, and particularly marathon running, is different. I think that's the point. I wouldn't be allowed to walk out onto a track with Usain Bolt — never, not even the short

[12:32] track and field stuff, the sprinting. It's something truly unique to marathon running: you can, at any number of events around the world, take the same track, take the same field, enter the same arena as the best in the world and make that comparison. But you could then argue you're still not really in it — you're a four-and-a-half or five-hour marathoner, put in Group F. Do you ever see the front of the

[13:06] line where the race starts? Do you ever get near the finish line when the leaders come through? Are you even exposed to that at the race? No, you're not. But then results — we've just said 80% of people don't care. That's my question, and I don't think there's an answer to it. I think it's something we should really think about, as runners, when we keep saying there's a running boom, there's a running thing happening, everything's happening — but there is a real disconnect

[13:38] in running, in particular, between what the elites follow and what the participation side of this sport follows or cares about. And you could probably add in that middle group too — earlier in the show we talked about influencers and how much impact they have on an audience, versus someone like Kipchoge. I wonder — now I'm interested to know, do you see where I'm going with this? Yeah, I really do.

[14:08] It fascinates me, because I've generally been involved around areas of sport where everyone's so focused on who's the best, who's coming up, what's happening — that competitive nature of watching big sports, like golf, tennis, where people sit at home for hours on end watching, and some of them don't even play tennis themselves. Why, in running, is that

[14:38] disconnect there? I don't know — and I don't want to get all fluffy about this, but there's something... you just want to get back to talking about it — no, no, there's something kind of romantic and beautiful about the idea. Again, I come back to that, at these major marathons or non-

[15:10] major marathons around the world — take Gold Coast for example, let's look at Jen Gregson. I raced on the same course as Jen Gregson last year. She's an Aussie athlete I've seen at the Olympics, at the Commonwealth Games, and I'm out there running the same course, the same day. I saw Jen Gregson on the marathon course last year — I think I was around the 27K mark or something when she was coming back the other way.

[15:42] I remember thinking, this is cool — that's Jen Gregson coming through. I think she finished second or third in the women's race last year. That's a feeling you can't get in any other sport. I can't tell you who won the women's race last year — I honestly can't. All right, let's go back to Kipchoge. What do you want to ask? Let's get to the money — we've spent plenty of time on this, and I know I could spend the whole episode on it, so I'm going to

[16:12] move us on. For those of you who want to hear more, call me; for those who want to hear less, I'll do this quickly. Some data: Usain Bolt, at his peak, when he came down here, was paid — do you remember there was a series of three meetings, kind of like a 'US versus the world' thing? He was reportedly paid a seven-figure appearance fee to commit to those three meetings, as well as a stake in the company running the event. Apparently during his peak he was getting paid $200,000 to $350,000 as an appearance fee to compete.

[16:44] For context — I just want to give you that context. On Eliud Kipchoge, some research I've done: in 2021, the top marathoners in the world were receiving appearance fees of about $200,000 per race. That's US dollars, irrespective of what he'd done. I found a Reddit thread that said Kipchoge was paid $300,000 US to run London in 2020. And in 2024, there was his

[17:16] — he had an appearance fee, and this was all in Kenyan money — but his appearance fee, plus his sponsorship deals with the brands he's associated with, saw him earn around $500,000 US for one of his marathons. What do you think he's getting paid to run here? No idea — that's my honest answer, if you had to guess. What would he be worth to you? Knowing the NSW government and their spending, they could be paying him a million dollars.

[17:47] That's what I think he's being paid — that's my honest answer. I reckon I do believe they'd overspend to get the outcome. He could also just be getting a normal fee of, say, $200,000. But I doubt it, given all the circumstances we talked about earlier — we're purely guessing here, but I just think about the money that's been pumped into this from a government perspective to get it here. Why would they stop now? The tap was on — keep the tap on.

[18:18] Yeah, I think Eliud Kipchoge is being paid a million dollars to come to town and run the Sydney Marathon in its first year as a major. As you said, why would you get to this point and try to nickel-and-dime it? In for a penny, in for a pound — we can get the greatest marathoner in the history of the sport to compete in our first year as a major marathon. Write the cheque.

[18:48] What's the money — roll it in, boom. Yeah, I think he's getting paid a million dollars, we're completely guessing here. What I do remember with marathoners — some of the more Australian runners who'd go to the majors — I was always surprised by the depth of payment in a marathon. We're talking maybe $10,000 to $30,000 US for the top 20. To get the whole field, a major has to attract a certain level of depth, so the payment goes right throughout the field — you've got your marquee guys getting the big bucks,

[19:20] but marathoning, of all the running disciplines, was always the one where they're still paying down the field — even down where you're the best in your country but definitely not running with a chance of a medal at these events, they're still looking after everyone. All right, Kipchoge-free zone from here on out. Over to you. Over to me — I'm going to throw up some audio, because I think I've found the best marketing campaign I've ever seen. Talk about — maybe the NSW government and whoever else benefits are

[19:51] spending a lot of money on this — this thing cost two pairs of shoes. Have a listen: 'Sportswear is the biggest hype right now, so people would do anything to get items, which leads our store to sell out in minutes — but most of them only wear them to be seen. Instead of doing sport shoes only as a running store, we first wanted to bring sport back into sportswear. So on the 13th of September, we decided to launch an exclusive campaign — Rob It to Get It.'

[20:21] 'For one day, we made our most-wanted items available for free. The only thing you had to do was rob them. Well, there was one condition: run faster than the security guard we specially hired. The security guy was a French sprinter. Only the true runners could get them. After more than 100 attempts, only two people managed to get away. But then things got out of control — a running store in Paris allowed customers to steal shoes.'

[20:56] 'All this for the price of only two pairs of shoes. Yes, it definitely was a robbery.' Now I've got some stats — the campaign was called 'Rob It to Get It,' it was a shoe store in Paris, Nick Stone shared this. They got 14 million organic views, and it was worth about €12 million in earned marketing. All up they gave away two pairs of shoes. There would've been a bit of cost in the social production and all that, but we're talking probably less than a few grand here.

[21:28] I think it's probably one of the most successful guerrilla campaigns you'll have seen in marketing. The guy chasing the security guard was actually a French Olympic sprinter — really clever. We've talked a bit about marketing and shoe marketing, and how clever some of it is, but this is next-level. Do you know when this campaign ran? No, I don't. What I love though is there's nothing new under the sun — that phrase basically says all ideas are stolen. You've seen this before — in 2011, have you ever stayed at the Art

[22:02] Series Hotel in Melbourne? I've stayed at the one near Albert Park. Yep. They ran a campaign in 2011 where they'd 'steal a Banksy' — they had an authentic Banksy painting hung up in the foyer behind the reception desk and invited guests to steal it: if you stole it, you kept it, no security. And someone actually pulled it off and pinched it.

[22:32] From what I remember, they came in posing as maintenance staff, got it down into the car park and into the boot of a car, and off they went. It could have been staged, but either way, amazing campaign — this out-of-the-box stuff. For running, this was gold. That is brilliant marketing, brilliant marketing.

[23:03] Interestingly, the brand itself didn't really jump out in the 'Rob It to Get It' campaign — it's a shoe store that sells multiple brands. They said they generally sell out on sports-style shoes, but they're a running store, so they wanted to focus back on running. It's a great piece — I'd say it's probably the best... well, until I heard about the Banksy one. It's probably the best one, but let's say it's the best running one.

[23:33] Yeah, that's a good one to bring in. Now — do you know Logan Martin? Logan from Logan? Olympic gold medallist in park freestyle BMX at the Tokyo Olympics. Runner. You mentioned this to me on the phone the other day — tell me more. I'm trying to line something up, but for the moment let's just have a quick chat about it.

[24:03] Logan Martin — for people who don't remember Tokyo, he burst onto the scene partly because he won Olympic gold, so he's the best in the world, but also because he had this purpose-built park set up in his backyard overlooking the whole suburb. It was incredible, and all the TV stations picked up the story — Logan from Logan, with all these great little storylines around him aside from his performance. He's the guy who literally flips bikes over quarter-pipes and half-pipes, all of that.

[24:37] What do you reckon he'd run a marathon in? Has he even run one? He's run a marathon — what do you reckon, have a guess. He's an Olympic athlete. I'm going to say low three-hours, maybe 3:08. He ran a 3:08, in non-race conditions, on the Gold Coast on the 16th of March. When was that — last Sunday, last weekend. And Tim Rigby — Alex Rigby's brother —

[25:08] no, the brother of Alex Rigby, he's his strength and conditioning coach — fed me this information, and I went and checked, he's on Strava: 4:28 average pace for moving time, three hours eight minutes. A few of the boys got together and ran 42.2K up and down the coast, basically the Gold Coast Marathon course, and he ran a 3:08. It tells me — let's not forget, we talked about this with Caleb Ewan — there are just freaks out there, and Caleb

[25:40] — actually, no, that wasn't Caleb, that was Richie Porte jumping in the pool and doing that insane hundred-hundreds thing. How old is Logan Martin? Let me have a look — he was born in '93, so what does that make him — 31, he's 31. I've never done BMX, so I assume there's got to be some level of cardiovascular output with the pedalling,

[26:11] though probably not the same extent — it's still trick BMX, not like he's racing around like Saya Sakakibara. This is more pedal-down-to-do-jumps type stuff. Geez, that's still impressive though. Now what makes that 3:08 even more impressive is he did it off six weeks of training — no, 12 weeks. He was 12 weeks post winning the world champs in park freestyle, and he

[26:43] just knocked out a 3:08. So that's the context — forget how long it took him to get there, he'd just won BMX park worlds, and 12 weeks later he's run a 3:08 — the machine. I assume there's a similar thing with Harry Garside, who I think we'll see a lot more of once his boxing career winds down. He's the one I could see pop up as a bit of a triathlete

[27:15] or a long-distance runner, because his cardiovascular fitness is incredible — apparently he goes all right in the tri world too. Right, the boxer. These are the ones we've got to try and uncover — who are these sneaky runners out there? Runners in the closet — can you get Logan on the show? I'll do my best. He's a rockstar though — nah, we can have a rockstar and a Red Bull athlete at the same time.

[27:46] That's fine. I'll give you a little more — actually, is he a Rockstar athlete? He's a Rockstar athlete, isn't he. Bet he is. Fine, we're Rockstar too then. Shout out, Logan — we'll just punch out a casual marathon and save it for when hopefully you can come on and have a chat. Now, we are two weeks out from the day people listen to this — in two weeks' time we'll be down in Tasmania preparing for the Salomon Golden Trail Series, kunanyi.

[28:17] Well, you will be — let's talk about this, Courtney Atkinson. It's a bit of a disaster, Liam — I mentioned last week I had a hip issue, something impinging. I've been down in Melbourne for the F1 and a few other things over the weekend, and it hasn't improved. As of today I've just come out of an MRI, and actually Doctor Ben was calling me while we're on here — I wanted to know what the results were.

[28:48] It doesn't seem too bad, fingers crossed, but what it means, Liam, is Liam-versus-Courtney looks like it's probably off — if I can even run next weekend, that's the best case. I'll still be down there, don't worry. In my opinion, it's going to be you versus Pete from Salomon. Before you get to me-versus-Pete — I was scared this was going to be a win for you — this is a win for me. This is Courtney versus Liam, and it now reads: Liam 1, Courtney 0. Fair enough, I'll accept it.

[29:19] On record — that's on record, Liam 1, Courtney 0. Not a great time to be — how do you feel? Like an idiot, honestly, because here I am preaching about — what's that saying, 'do as I say, not as I do'? That's exactly what I did when the floods were on, when the cyclone was here — I did something I'm not used to doing.

[29:50] Got myself into something frustrating, because you'd been running really well, getting that speed back you'd been chasing, and then to have this niggle turn up now — no one wants to hear excuses, and I'm going to get it sorted. But the other thing is, with what's coming up over the next three or four months and what we've got planned, there are going to be other people in my situation who've either hurt themselves coming back from something. Whatever the

[30:21] experience is, you can always take something out of it and learn. And at this stage, the most transparent I can be is: I can't run as of today. As of this week I'm not able to run — it's been about seven days since I've been able to get out. No running. As you pointed out, there'll be other people in this exact circumstance, and your attitude right now — I thought you'd be flatter than you are.

[30:52] There's probably something in this worth talking about more over the next couple of months, leading into Gold Coast Marathon and everything else. But can you just talk a bit about your perspective — you're injured, you're getting it diagnosed, and now what? What's your attitude to it? Well, probably — what's the phase — acceptance, I'd say. You've probably caught me toward the end of that phase — you seem very accepting

[31:22] of it. I'm in the acceptance phase for sure at the moment, but I'm also optimistic, and I suppose the reason is I went to see professionals — that's the first thing. I tried to manage it myself for about five or six days, and when I saw it wasn't improving — I could've waited another week, I could've waited three weeks — but I went. And luckily my run group is quite multidisciplinary,

[31:53] we've got some professionals in there who can help out, and everyone chipped in — I actually asked for help this time, and that's the key. That's probably the thing I haven't done well in the past — I let things go too far, and this has gone far enough to stop me running. But we're going to go sort it out, make sure we know exactly what it is, because I've got to get back. That's why I'm probably in a decent mood — I'm going to get answers, I'm not just guessing.

[32:27] Isn't it weird — and this can be a lesson, blokes listening — women are so much better at this: when there's an issue, whether physical or health-wise, you go and get it sorted. Blokes are the stereotype, and I realise I'm throwing a broad blanket here, but we stick our heads in the sand and ignore things. As soon as you actually go and get it checked and talk about it, it's like a weight lifts — oh, it's not as bad as I thought, or there's actually a simple fix to this. I'm not going to have to figure it out in my own head if I actually go and talk to somebody.

[32:59] I went for a run out of the Melbourne CBD down to the Tan, and I was so — I was hobbling, but I told myself, I'm going to push through this, it's all good, it's all good. But then at some point you just realise, nah, it's not actually good. So yeah, I'm frustrated because I know exactly why I did what I did. I'm accepting at this stage too, and look, you've got to be optimistic — I am. Either way, we'll still be down in Tassie, so this one's on me now — watch, it's you versus Pete. Speaking of Pete —

[33:32] Pete from Salomon heard us talking last week and doesn't want you to have any excuses at all — he's given you all the equipment. I've got to say, I haven't met Pete, but I admire the man, because if I were put into a match race against someone, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to not level the playing field by gearing them up with the best stuff — I'd take it. There's no way, if the shoe was on the other foot,

[34:02] I would've done what Pete's done — given you the training shoes instead of literally arming you to the teeth. I walked into the studio today, Courtney, and you've got a gift pack from Pete, from Salomon, and he's kitted me out with everything I need. Talk to me about this shoe — it looks epic, looks like an expensive shoe, looks unbelievable. He's looked after you, that's for sure. So this is the S/Lab Genesis — true story, it's actually designed

[34:34] by Ryan Sandes, the South African Red Bull athlete who runs ultras — he's run across Nepal, holds a heap of fastest-known-time records, does all the big ultras, that type of thing. But that's how Salomon works — they've got their whole range, and anything with S/Lab on it is their top-of-the-range stuff, like the HS finger holder — right, it's that next level up. If that Chinese carbon shoe you got me was the ugliest shoe

[35:06] I've ever seen, this is the opposite — this is the sexiest-looking running shoe. Hold it up to the camera so I can zoom in on it. What's that famous brand that uses that corduroy-pattern styling? I can't think what it is, but it's got fashion written all over it — as fashionable a shoe as I've seen, like something off a runway at a fashion show that wouldn't look out of place. So this is my shoe — you were originally giving me the

[35:36] Genesis, and then we had you in the Ultra Glide, which is very comfy, but we talked about the fact that this is what I'd race in — this is what I'd do my speed sessions and my faster fartlek in, that type of thing. So Pete's given you his racing trail shoe, which is huge of him — no excuses. He's decked you out with packs too — I've got the Salomon vest, I've got the hat, no

[36:06] excuses now, Liam. I know I got some great feedback off our chat last week when you said you were surprised about the course and how much elevation was in it — was that people laughing at you? I'm not aware, but yeah, I'd well and truly thrown you under the bus. Now not only have you thrown me under the bus, I may... look, again, two weeks out, we'll talk about our running weeks in a sec, and not

[36:38] to rub salt into your tight hip wound, but I'm actually running really well at the moment. Well, that's good to hear — he's not going to like hearing that. I'll tell you a bit more about that in a moment. Two weeks out, I'm gutted that you're where you are with the injury. I'm genuinely getting more and more excited about this — I can't wait, it's going to be a great adventure, I'm looking forward to it. After this one, the next time we chat we'll be arriving on the Saturday morning of

[37:09] the event. All right, so last one on this kind of topic — not running specifically, but you know, talking about Hyrox and CrossFit — CrossFit is moving over, funny enough, talk about trends: I see CrossFit is up for sale, the whole thing. Isn't Berkshire Partners who's involved — Owen Brooks, wasn't that the same — Berkshire Hathaway? No, Berkshire Partners, now that's a famous name.

[37:40] Well, go figure — this article says after five years, Berkshire Partners, who acquired CrossFit, have now put it up for sale. Not a great sign. What do you read into that? I read into it that maybe the bubble's burst. Interestingly, do you know who's partnered up with Hyrox as a provider or sponsor?

[38:10] F45 — F45 used to run their own events too. It's interesting, no different really to running or triathlon having multiple distances, multiple brands owning events, that type of thing. But what's more interesting, I think, around this — call it the hybrid-fitness space or whatever — is they all seem to flock to the one thing and then move to the next.

[38:41] And then the next. Has a sport died out before this? What about — it wasn't called True Grit, was it — Tough Mudder? Have you ever done a Tough Mudder? No, I haven't. How big was Tough Mudder? Everyone was doing Tough Mudder — that was huge. When you think about it, what Hyrox is doing at the moment is, to an extent, causing... I'm trying to think of another sport or

[39:12] event that's caused the extinction of so many other things. CrossFit, Tough Mudder — I wouldn't say extinct, but it's certainly diminished their time in the spotlight. Spartan Racing is the other one — that was a big thing, and a lot of those Spartan Race athletes have now converted to Hyrox. I wonder — well, interesting, take Tia-Clair Toomey, for instance, who we

[39:42] talked about racing James Newbury in Hyrox in Brisbane. She was the CrossFit — the fittest woman on the planet — and suddenly she's the face of Hyrox in the sense that every time I look at Hyrox content she's in it, she's in the top 15, she's actually running, and running really well. It's really interesting — as you say, CrossFit is officially up for sale. I wonder, though — it doesn't mean the end of it. Look at UFC, famously — that was

[40:14] for sale, got sold, and the people who took it over, Dana White and — I forget the name of the brothers, the Fertittas or something — turned it into what it is now. It's a monster, it's unstoppable. Maybe whoever buys CrossFit does the same thing. I don't know, but it's certainly at a crossroads. So there was F45 and Hyrox — I saw they're putting an event on in Sydney, not sure if it's a new one they've added or the Sydney version of an existing one. In the comments, people were

[40:44] complaining because it's on the same day as the Gold Coast Marathon — so the crossover is real. That's fascinating, really good to see. All right, quick loose end from last week — 'What on Earth' from What on Earth, he's showroom — Drew the Cyclone — he was down in Tugun, hanging out the front of Fox's Pantry, great man. He said he was challenging us because we were talking a lot

[41:17] about 'Strive to Survive' being the original thing that brought that sport to the mainstream. He was saying the movie Unbreakable is exactly the same, with the scenes with the ultra-runners. Hold on — is there a movie called Unbreakable? I reckon it must be — someone said scenes with ultra-runners, a behind-the-scenes with ultra-runners type film.

[41:49] He also said, Courtney, when he first started running trails, Salomon had a channel, Salomon TV, which he's pretty sure the F1 show was based on — they do a behind-the-scenes of the Golden Series, but it's really focused more on the running than the actual circus around it. I just did a quick Google, I'll have to watch it, I haven't seen this — there's a movie filmed in 2012 called Unbreakable, about the Western States 100: four world-class, undefeated mountain runners compete in the gruelling Western States 100-mile endurance race.

[42:19] I'm going to have to watch it — I'm already excited to watch it, though I can't comment on it yet. There's also a movie called Unbreakable with Bruce Willis in it — is that the one with the glass, the villain? I don't think that's what he was referring to. All right, let's talk about our running weeks. Well, you haven't done anything. I've got plenty to talk about — don't worry, I've done a lot. This has probably been my busiest week of the year, just missing the running. Let me wrap up my running week for all those people

[42:50] out there — I had so many people reach out saying, 'hey mate, I'll go for a long run with you if you want.' Liam the loner — that was so nice, people were genuinely concerned that I was too scared to face the long run by myself, and I genuinely appreciate it, I'll take some of you up on the offer. I got a long run done last weekend — managed to punch out 24 or 25K, maintained my pace, felt good. You know what the key was, actually — in the end, taking a

[43:21] water bottle with me, just a little popper water bottle my kids had lying around, filling it up with water along the way, constantly topping it up and sipping as I ran. That really made a difference. Just water — no, I didn't have any nutrition to put in it at the time, but yeah, it really helped. So I got a long run done, thank you to everybody, I've overcome my fears. Yesterday, the day before we recorded this, I went out

[43:52] and did an interval session — got a new 1K PB, not as part of the actual interval session, I'm sure I could probably go out and beat it just running a flat 1K, but as part of the interval session — where were you doing this? Just along the front, around Tugun somewhere. I did a 4K warm-up and then it was 5x1K intervals — the plan was to do 5x1K as well with walk recoveries in between, but I popped on the third one and jogged a couple of K home, so that was enough. But the 5x1K intervals

[44:24] the breakdown went: 3:55, sorry — 3:48, 3:43, 3:40, and a 3:37. Gee, 3:37 is the fastest I've ever run a kilometre. Well controlled, really — yeah, 3:37 is as quick as I've ever run a K, because you've never really gone out to just do a 1K flat. No, but as part of an interval session, and that was my last one — well, that's exciting, I know. This is what I mean,

[44:56] I'm running well — I'm running really well. I've given you all my mojo out here. I got over my long-run fear, had a great interval session the other morning, and shout out to Ryan Elworthy, who I stole the set from — I saw it pop up on his Strava, thought that looks like a fun set, he said it's a cracker, so I stole it, thank you. And then lastly, last thing I want to wrap up — after that interval session I went to one of those foot,

[45:26] the massage places, just in the mall — one of those massage places, not those massage places, well, you never know around the Gold Coast what you're walking into. The rule of thumb I operate on is, if it's got the fluoro 'open' sign out the front, it's not that kind. What kind of place is that, exactly, you know? This one was in the Pines at Elanora. As long as I go with — if it's in a mall you're pretty safe, as long as it doesn't have curtains draped over the front. Yeah, I love a good old foot reflexology.

[45:57] I just love them, and surprise, the bloke who was doing my feet was wearing a Sydney Marathon shirt, so I said, 'oh, did you run the marathon?' He said 'yeah, two years ago,' I said 'amazing, how'd you go?' He said 'yeah, it was good,' and I said 'did you get a PB?' and he said 'yeah, I ran a 2:55.' We ended up spending the next fifteen minutes talking to him about running — new listener, I put him on the pod.

[46:27] I put your — here's the link, give it a follow, subscribe, that's the important thing. So shout out to my new mate at the massage joint — he was great, and I just loved that runners were everywhere, Courtney, and I think that's kind of why we started doing this: you never know who's a runner. Now, talk to me about your week of non-running. Yeah, what I'm going to talk about is runners being everywhere too — yesterday morning I walked, I

[47:00] was down at Currumbin, Broadbeach, and I just walked around the park for about 50 minutes because I couldn't run and just wanted to get out. And do you know what I noticed, suddenly, when I started walking — how many runners are around. The next thing I noticed was how quick runners are going at the moment — all of a sudden, because I was walking, I could really see it: people out there doing interval sessions, tempo runs — we've been seeing runners, but at the moment I'm actually seeing runners running, not just jogging around.

[47:33] Just say it's the In the Beginning effect. Yeah, of course. So aside from observing the speed of it, what else did you notice? It was just — people were moving really well, multiple people I saw, both male and female that morning, moving really nicely — like they could've turned up to a Gold Coast Run Co session, joined in and not looked out of place. Not even a beat missed, and

[48:06] whether it's because I was walking and taking more in, that's the observation I made yesterday morning. But go back to the previous week — I've had a huge week, mate. When I say week, going back to last Wednesday — I flew down to Melbourne, and the first thing I did was a bit of goodwill, went out and saw a young triathlon group out of Port Melbourne, the Momentum Triathlon Group, and just had a nice young

[48:39] — when I say young kids, probably anyone from around 12 or 13 all the way up to a young lady who'd just come 8th at the New Zealand Ironman. Amazing, professional group, and we just sat in the park and chewed the fat. How did they compare to how you were at that age — did you find yourself thinking back? Yeah, a lot of the stories I was telling were about that. A lot of them are trying to make

[49:09] the young Australian teams, and even nowadays some of the questions come up around how do I market myself in a social-media era, how do I get some of the stuff — the stuff you tell them. Well, one of the main things that came up was, if I want to attract sponsors and I'm not winning, how do I attract sponsors? And the main thing I said to them — this is my view, at least, on social media — is that social media is made to create sheep.

[49:42] And the reason I say that is because social media is generally trend-driven, whether it's TikTok or Instagram or whatever — you're nearly taught to be successful by following others and adhering to the trend, but unless you're at the top of that trend, you're just another person, aren't you. So why would a sponsor, coming to invest in a sport

[50:13] here or whatever, want to invest in you if you're just doing the same thing as someone else who's actually performing better than you? So my thing was all about creating individualisation — standing out from the crowd. And that doesn't mean being a clown, it just means doing things your own way and being yourself, because at the end of the day, that's your only real point of difference. That is the only point of difference, and I can tell you right now, that's what businesses love — in the end, there's a story about you,

[50:46] and how you relate to that business or product, and that's a story about you. People will follow you — they won't follow you just because you're doing the same thing as the thousand people before you. It's very similar to the shoe stuff you see, where someone flicks some shoes on their feet and might get a lot of clicks, but how does that actually translate into someone going, 'oh, I saw that, I've got a

[51:18] connection with that person, or with what they're doing' — they're telling me what they wear, what they do, how they go about things — and then suddenly that translates into a conversion, into me choosing that product. Click through, there's the video — I can never find them when we need them. That's gold, honestly — you're so right, but you just can't do the same thing as everyone else and expect the same result, because you're not first to market.

[51:49] It's interesting that the young kids are asking questions like that, as opposed to 'how do I cut down my transition time' or 'how do I run better off the bike.' I thought you were going to say 'how do I cut weight' or something, but no, it was nice — really informal, we just sat down and chatted. So that was the start of my big weekend — then I was off to the F1. Friday we had — I could have — I had a bit of AFL for the day,

[52:19] lots of inside information, mate, that I can't share with a commentator like yourself. Now I've got a bone to pick with you — what the hell were you doing out on the MCG covered in Collingwood paraphernalia, supporting the Magpies? No accusations here — I've seen the photo, mate, I've seen the photo, and I know there's a story behind it, because it was sent to me by several people saying 'what the hell.' They're not really — it's not really like that.

[52:50] So the last place I expected to end up was on the MCG, in the middle of, you know, on the side of the big banner — through Red Bull, it was a connection through Red Bull. They deal with AFL and a whole range of things, but Daniel Sanders, the Dakar winner, is a hardcore Collingwood fan — you can tell from the photo. Who else did we have — we had Jess Fox, Matt Hall, the stunt-plane guy, made me throw up — I had the Alpha Blokes

[53:20] podcast crew, Tommy was with us, we had a whole group before we knew it, someone from Collingwood just shoved flags in our hands and said go out there — and then before you know it, on Friday, I had Brisbane with me, and the two Adelaide teams with me too. How do you think — I hope they've all seen that, in my defence, they just shoved a flag in my hand. That's not going to hold up in court, mate.

[53:50] If you get the chance to go out there in the future, politely decline — say thank you, but I'm a man of principle. No one was a man of principle, or woman of principle, that night — we just did it. But it was great, those are the things — how did you find being out on the ground, did you take a moment to look around? I just got told off because I pulled my camera out and the rights holders came up —

[54:20] yeah, because you're not allowed to take photos and stuff, right. Did you get in trouble? Got a little slap on the wrist. But what I was going to say — I've been to the MCG plenty of times, they've got meeting rooms around there, but I'd never actually been to a sporting event at the MCG. Wow, so that's the reason I ended up there — I got the chance to go see a game, Port were playing. Trav Boak's a Red Bull athlete —

[54:50] yes, that's right — Stewie Graham, the high-performance manager, I'd just been with the day before, and I ended up on the opposite team. Has Trav messaged you since? No, Trav wouldn't have been happy about that — they didn't play very well, and I think he got hurt too.

[55:23] So yeah, a couple of long days at the F1, Red Bull giving us great hospitality, checking out the cars — they're a bit back on pace this year, still second, but McLaren's looking very sharp. Don't worry, there's plenty of bandwagon — a lot of Ferrari fans thought they were going to win this year, it's good for the sport. I think the Red Bull dominance of the last decade with Verstappen has been incredible to watch, but as a neutral, I think it's — and someone who can't wait for the next series of Drive to Survive to come out —

[55:54] yeah, don't take that as gospel, anyone listening, but I've heard they're not bringing it back. They copped a lot of flack about the last series, about making up storylines. Do you know one thing I'll share while you're Googling that — I'll tell you a bit of a story about the difference between F1 and any other sport. Through my role at Red Bull, we get to attend plenty of sporting events — like I said, ended up on the MCG on the weekend, at the pits at Supercars, a whole range of different sports. F1 is on another level entirely.

[56:24] Even just going on a pit tour at the F1 — as you enter the pits it's cameras down, no one takes a photo, you're just ushered in. Even as part of the company, within the family of the company that owns the team, you're literally just one of

[56:54] thirty they've got moving through that day — don't touch anything, don't bring your phone out of your pocket, because of the IP. They don't want anything shown off those cars, and you can imagine all the hospitality sponsors, everything happening at that event over the weekend — for them it's great, but it's just another weekend, and they're doing that, what, 24 or 26 races this year, week in, week out, every

[57:24] time. How would you feel doing your radio show every morning and having ten people just come and stand on your shoulder — and if someone wants a photo with you while you're trying to work the touchpad. I'll say, we've actually had that happen a couple of times this year — they've had functions on in the mornings at the radio station and suddenly thirty people walk past the studio and come in. It's a bit of fun, not high pressure, but

[57:54] if you had to do that every time you tried to do your job, it would get old. Yeah, but that's the next level again — once you're out the front of the pits there's a red line, and past that, within reason, you can take your photos, and they've obviously got to cater to their sponsors too. But it's unique in that way — there's nothing I've been around that compares at that level. I was a bit disappointed for the race itself, disappointed about the weather — but that was actually the best race they'd

[58:25] had in years, from what everyone tells me. So I got home, actually watched the race back here — you didn't even stay for the race? No, I watched qualifying — had the boys from the Alpha Blokes podcast down with me, having a lot of fun, being recognised, that's what we put on for people to come and have a good time. I've got a poll I want to put out at some

[58:55] point, because I want to get a sense of the other podcasts the In the Beginning family listens to — I want to get my ears around some other stuff, get a sense of what our listeners are into. You'd think it'd be like heavy running stuff, I don't know, I'm just genuinely curious, looking to expand my podcast horizons. I think it'd have to be a write-in question, because you couldn't really do a poll — too hard to do a poll. What else is going on, mate?

[59:26] So much — this morning, still talking about F1, I was sitting here on the computer and Christian Horner, the team principal, gave probably one of the best interviews I've heard — he was in the Red Bull office down in Sydney, and it was one of the best interviews I'll probably listen to all year. Can you give us anything from it? Egotistical, lots of humour, strategically brilliant — there were so many, so many

[59:57] pearlers. One of the big things he said — a few things came back to me — someone was asking about all the data they get, like the rain over the weekend, you've got all that data from the rain, but how do you make the call on when to bring them in, when to switch tyres? And the one thing he said was: you can have all the data in the world, but the worst thing you can do is follow it blindly. Because sometimes, he was saying, because of the rain, you've actually just got to physically go and feel it. But I suppose the other side of it

[01:00:27] is you've got to listen to the real world — sometimes, he said, you've just got to listen to your driver, because they're the ones who know. So it's taking both sides — you've got to have a bit of everything and balance, just like we talk about in running or in life, to make the right decisions. And that's how they make the call: use the data you've got, but go and feel it. I was thinking about that same philosophy watching The Players Championship the other weekend, because there's a

[01:01:00] conspiracy theory, or a theory that's come out, that Justin Spieth — sorry, I might have the name wrong — who lost in the playoff to Rory McIlroy, made the mistake of looking at what club Rory took off the tee on one of the playoff holes. Rory gave a three-quarter swing with his pitching wedge or nine-iron, saw him pull that club, so he went with an eight and blasted it over the green, or something like that — I might be getting the clubs mixed up — and the commentators picked up on him

[01:01:31] looking at Rory's club selection, saying, I don't know if that's a good idea, basing your own selection off what someone else is doing — basically shaping your strategy around your competitor. And the idea, at the end of the day, is you know you're going to be the one — this applies to everything, I guess — you can cite other factors, you can say 'well, my competitor did this, my co-worker did that, so I did this,' but at the end of the day, you're the one who has to deal with the outcome of your own

[01:02:02] choices, so you might as well make the call on your own merits. But there's something about — what I took away from it — you internally sometimes just know when something's right or wrong, and you trust your gut. Cool — trust your gut, great story. Now finally, a little bit of gear — oh, let's talk gear, I'm still enamoured with — have you had a proper crack at those S/Lab shoes yet? Yeah, that's me, I'm — I can't

[01:02:33] stop looking at your shoes. Before you take those shoes for a run, should I give them a run-in first, before kunanyi? Yes, I'd run them in. They'll handle a lot, the way they're designed, kind of like — I'll run in them, yeah, I'll run in them this weekend, and if you see me on the trails, shout out my shoes. So this — I don't know how interested you'll be in this, Liam, but — Tak Kasuga, have you heard of him? Yeah, Tak Kasuga — Japanese, at least that's how you pronounce it, it's a pretty easy one to say, it's one of the only Japanese names I can actually pronounce, because it's just

[01:03:03] those two-letter syllables. So he's the creative force behind Arc'teryx — I've always been fascinated by how you pronounce that brand, and I'll probably still get it wrong. No, no, I love it — Arc'teryx, 'Ark,' for sure, you can never really get that one wrong. That's a Canadian outdoor company, a bit like a top-end North Face, in that sort of space — really it's their Gore-Tex jackets, which are ridiculously expensive. They're actually part of the

[01:03:37] Salomon family, the bigger umbrella group. What's interesting is he's obviously made a massive impact bringing that brand into street style, and he's now moved to Nike as VP of Design Excellence for apparel, accessories and equipment. Very interesting. So what does that say to you about Nike, that they've gone and poached him?

[01:04:07] What it says is watch out for what's coming, because he's taken a brand that's very street but technically excellent — if you talk to anyone who owns Arc'teryx gear, particularly Americans and Canadians, it's not only expensive and on-trend, but from what I've heard, technically it's some of the best out there.

[01:04:39] As well as from the design perspective — they're using all the same types of materials, but from a technical standpoint, their down jackets, their Gore-Tex jackets, everything, it's the best in the business, and you pay for it. Now he's going to a company with all the bells and whistles, unlimited budget essentially, but also operating at a much bigger scale in terms of volume produced, compared to

[01:05:10] Arc'teryx. I wonder what challenges that presents for him, going from somewhere like Arc'teryx to somewhere like Nike. Well, I'd even wonder whether they're looking at creating more custom lines, something more niche within the broader Nike scope, or whether it's more about collaborations with artists, influencers, whatever it is. I don't know, but watch this space, because what he's done with Arc'teryx has been huge.

[01:05:40] And yeah, he's on his way there now. Very nice. All right, you want to hit a couple of listener questions before we wrap up? How are we going for time? We've got time for one or two. Brett sent this in on the pod — anyone, feel free to leave questions or comments on our Spotify comments, we'll always look there. He says: 'Hi guys, love the pod, wanted to get your opinion — living in Sydney, the run-club boom is ever-present here, great that everyone's exercising, but for a long-time runner, the lack of etiquette

[01:06:12] does my head in. Wondering your thoughts, Liam and Courtney — if you're running on the left side of the path and a run club is coming towards you the other way, four or five abreast, yelling 'let's go' while filming selfies, is it okay to proceed like a Gordon Tallis and run straight through the pack?' Yes, yes — it's a bit like the Hedges Avenue biker earlier this year, but runner-on-runner.

[01:06:44] No, look — there's no real win in it, is there. It might feel good in the moment, and you'd probably get pretty sweaty, since most of them have got their shirts off — but what's the actual win? It's going to make you feel good for a second, but ultimately the outcome is five of them turn around and suddenly you've got an awkward, aggressive confrontation to deal with. Or, alternatively, you might knock one of them over and actually hurt someone. It's a momentary win for potentially

[01:07:18] much longer-term drama. Just don't run five abreast — if you're in a run club, particularly in Sydney, and I've run in Sydney for years, the footpaths aren't built for you to run on mass like that. If you're not running at a time when you can spread out on tracks or roads with space, find a better time to run. Don't be that group that blocks an entire footpath. So Brett, I know it's

[01:07:48] frustrating, mate, and I know you want to drop the shoulder for the momentary satisfaction it might give you, but it's probably not going to be worth it. You know what I took out of this? What? It's interesting, he's in Sydney but he knows Gordon Tallis — must be a rugby league fan, must be a Queenslander. Anyone can appreciate the beauty of Gordon Tallis. When we talk about etiquette on the path, forget run clubs, I just think everyone should be

[01:08:18] aware to keep left and right — stay on your left, if people just used a bit of common sense. Hey, everyone's entitled to use the path, but if only common sense was so easy to find — if only common sense was so common, Courtney, maybe we should call it 'not-so-common sense.' All right, I think that's about enough for today, Liam. Hey — this is our last episode before we're Tassie-bound.

[01:08:50] Yes — so after this one, the next time you hear from us, we'll hopefully both be live, running up the mountain in Tassie. This is exciting, big stuff. I'll be breathing heavy, but you'll be looking good doing it, Liam. Yeah, I'm so excited, this is going to be a lot of fun. Thanks to everyone for continuing to tune in — it's growing week to week, so leave comments, give us a like, we've got some exciting stuff happening. The best thing you can do for us if you're enjoying the journey

[01:09:21] is leave comments and share the love — word of mouth is what's helping this grow in an amazing way at the moment. We've got some stuff planned that we're continuing to work on, and hopefully we can share that with you very soon. But yeah, keep sharing the love, keep commenting, and we'll see you next week. Enjoy your running.