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# EP77 - HOLLY RANSON "THE MINDSET OF ULTRA RUNNING"
- URL: https://www.inthebeginningpodcast.com/ep77-holly-ranson-the-mindset-of-ultra-running/
- Published: 2026-03-13T06:00:00.000Z
- Updated: 2026-08-20T11:52:18.000Z
- Description: Courtney Atkinson and Liam Flanagan on nutrition, trail running, UTA & ultras — recorded on the Gold Coast.
- Author: Courtney Atkinson
- Tags: Episodes, Main Feed, Sports Science, Trail Running, Ultra Running, Running Shoes, #Import 2026-07-28 20:58

*Courtney Atkinson and Liam Flanagan on nutrition, trail running, UTA & ultras — recorded on the Gold Coast.*

## Listen

Listen on [Spotify](https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/inthebeginningpodcast/episodes/EP77---HOLLY-RANSON-THE-MINDSET-OF-ULTRA-RUNNING-e3gcatq?ref=inthebeginningpodcast.com) or [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep77-holly-ranson-the-mindset-of-ultra-running/id1772010786?i=1000755146504&uo=4&ref=inthebeginningpodcast.com).

## Full transcript

Auto-generated transcript. Timestamps approximate. Hosts: Courtney Atkinson & Liam Flanagan.

**Read the full transcript** 

\[00:00\] In the Beginning podcast episode 76 Courtney, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, but let's get to the guest. Well, I'm, I'm not good because for the first time in the history of the podcast, I've been for a run before this podcast. Now I went for a run with our special guest who joins us and I was informed after the run, I said, how would that run rate for you on a scale of 1 to 10? We did about 10 KS. It's about 33° outside. We had a bit of 10 KS and her response was one out of 10 and I am still recovering. She is basically the best trail

\[00:33\] runner this country has on offer. 2025 female ultra runner of the year. Holly Ranson, how are you? Thanks, Liam, I'm good. How are? You well better than I was about 5 minutes ago after we finished our run. Thank you so much for making the effort to come. You and your partner Nick have made the effort to come down. Nick's sitting quietly in the corner throughout this, so if you hear him. Giggling. Yeah. Feel free to over there though, we can hear you. But thank you for coming down. We got a whole heap of things to talk about. I believe you and Courtney know

\[01:04\] one another, though. Yeah, well. You came to Red Bull races. You've experienced, I should say, Red Bull races, son. Yeah, I've had the experience. It was one of the most fun events I reckon I've ever participated in. Two years ago it. Was only probably last year. Was it last year? Yeah, it was. And did your team beat the Sun? We did, I think about 20 minutes, but we were involved in the Sprint finish for was it 3rd, 4th. Fourth. Yeah. Third and four. He was crazy. After 24 hours, to have three teams all come together and literally be sprinting up the Tenterfield Rd.

\[01:34\] It was pretty, pretty nice. Did you were you with? Did you Sprint? No. I did not Sprint. I am not a sprinter. Well, that's why we've got you today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Liam doesn't want to be a sprinter. He's on all this. He's on all this Milo stuff, and I'm going the other way. I want to run a 10K but we're super interested to get all. Lots of things to get to Holly. I've got lots of questions for you, but just for those that cause we've got a lot of new to runners, we've got people that are now starting to dabble in trail as well. What's your background?

\[02:04\] How did you get into trail running? OK, it's been a long and convoluted journey involving a lot of different sports. I actually grew up as a sailor, dinky sailing. So yeah, OK, world away from endurance sports. I was about 18 or 19 when I started getting into running and that quickly switched over to triathlon. So I did tries for a number of years, mostly 70.3 type triathlons. And then after a few injuries I decided to switch again to cycling and raced in what's now called Provello.

\[02:37\] Used to be the National Rd series. So I did that for about 6 years and then moved up to Darwin. The cycling scene wasn't right, it was a bit tricky travelling to the events so looked for a new challenge and that's when I stumbled across trail running. So been doing the trail and ultra thing for about 6 or 7 years now. How long did it take for you to get good? That's a genuine question because. In the Pro series for cycling. Well, I, I don't know how transferable that is. Courtney, let me remind you,

\[03:09\] I've never been at the elite level of anything. So I don't know how transferable it is to go from. Listening to all that background and then I'm going, OK, now it makes sense why it would be a very big space runner, you know? Well, we're gonna talk about that, but like, OK, you go into your first trail run, did you win? I did actually. I won the female. I think I was third overall and first female, but I wouldn't say I was good. I had the aerobic engine obviously from the cycling, but I had no idea what I was doing

\[03:40\] with trail running. I had so many blisters. My feet were just a mess of infections. It was disgusting. I didn't take a support crew. I didn't have any way to get to the from the start of one stage to the start of the next stage. I was completely disorganised. But yeah, I could run faster than the other people apparently. So that sounds like what I'm about to endure at the Mile and myself because I don't haven't thought about any of that stuff. Western states, let's talk about that. Can you explain to people that have never heard of Western states what it is and what

\[04:13\] you've just achieved over New Zealand a couple of weeks back? OK, so Western States Endurance Run is the oldest 100 mile foot race in the world. It actually started off in the early 70s as a horseback race and then one, one bright Spark decided he was going to jump off his horse and see if he could run it in less than 24 hours, which he just succeeded in doing. And that was how it was born. And then now it's an iconic, it's probably one of the two most prestigious trail running races in the world. It's 100 miles, so 161 kilometres.

\[04:45\] It's got over 5000 metres of elevation, but it's actually net downhill. So people find it tough because it's tough on on the quads running downhill for 160 K's and the first section of the course is an Alpine path. So you climb up about 760 metres in the first seven K's and it's at altitude. I can't remember, must be around 2000\. And generally get a bit of snow up there as well, right? Snow, yeah, but. Then the heat. This is Courtney. I'm talking about this, Holly, and I'm talking about this on the run. What?

\[05:15\] Talk to us about some of the temperatures you're going to endure in this race. Yeah. So the average daytime temperature in that area in summer, which is the end of June, so Midsummer, is supposed to be 34°, but often a lot higher in the Canyon. So you go down into these sort of canyons and they reckon it can get over 40° down there. Going for context, right when we knew we were recording this today and I knew Holly was going to be coming down, I knew I still looked at the forecast and I saw what now? I feel so dumb for having

\[05:47\] written this text message which I said Holly can't wait to chat today. Just flagging given the forecast is for 33 that it might be a tad hot for us to go running. I feel like an idiot now knowing that she's going to be enduring that for 160\. KS How do you even? Well, how do you even start to prepare for that now? OK, so heat training so we can do active or passive. I'm sure you are aware of all the protocols, so. No. What is heat training? Heat training, so you can do passive heat training, which is

\[06:18\] where you sit in a sauna or sit in a warm bath, usually after training when you core temperatures a little bit elevated. Anyway. So I did a lot of sauna sessions leading up to the race in New Zealand a couple of weeks ago, which is where I won the ticket to Western State. So you run and then sit in a sauna? Yeah, sounds horrible. Sounds absolutely horrible. Worst thing I can imagine. We jumped in the pool, your pool here, Courtney, after we finished the run and it was delightful, the idea of getting into something hotter than that. Yeah, I mean.

\[06:50\] Well, did you any did you ever do any of that with triathlon? No, the sauna stuff probably came after my time in that research. But I mean, heat training. We've talked about Michael Shelley plenty of times, and I've told you the story where, you know, he'd do a block of heat training here on the Gold Coast, which isn't really like that extreme. It's more the humidity, right? And then he'd also do the same block of training at altitude and the result is always the same. Like within a minute he was, you know, there was no real benefit either way. So we always said, you know, we've, we've seen the research.

\[07:22\] There is benefits to heat training. Yeah. OK. So that's passive heat training. Yeah. What's active heat training? Active would be when you do a session overdressed or some people like to do bike training sessions in their laundry with the dryer on so it creates that hot humid environment. Or if you're pro and you have access to heat chambers, you know you could do it in there, but that's when you're actually doing the session in the heat. But that's a little bit harder on the body and takes a bit more time to recover from than the passive sessions, so. Sounds so horrible. Yeah, I mean, you're getting

\[07:55\] outside once, you're once you're sweating and you're in that heat environment, you're training in Queensland, You get so used to it. I mean, yes, it's a bit more uncomfortable, but I think if you come from the southern states, it's a lot harder. That's where it starts to become really like a challenge. So when is western states? Western States is the 27th of June. Okay, And how's the so how's the prep looking for that? Yeah, so I had about four months when I recovered from the race in New Zealand. So I was thinking a month of

\[08:26\] just big volume. I'm gonna go down to Katoomba in a couple of weeks and do a training camp in the Blue Mountains. They're just trying to get a lot of elevation in and yeah, lots of aerobic running. And from there I'll ramp up the specificity. So doing a lot more heat sessions, doing some speed sessions, and lots of stuff in the gym. So particularly trying to strengthen the quads and make sure I'm going to be bulletproof for running downhill for so long. Can you give us a week like right at the moment, just for anyone listening, like what does even this week look like for you?

\[08:57\] And then we can have a chat to Liam here. He's running 100 mile around a similar time. Yeah, so this week, I think Monday was aerobic, hilly, sort of runs about 90 minutes and then about 90 minutes or so in the gym just it's like day every day for me. Tuesday track session in the morning. So we did 4K warm up and then speed session was I think it was

\[09:28\] 15 minutes where we do 30 seconds at 10K pace and then 2 1/2 minutes at marathon pace. Just keep doing that. I think it's 77 reps of that and then 3K cool down. And then Tuesday afternoon did an uphill treadmill session. So just it was my first session back. So only four 4 by 5 minute intervals on a like a 12% incline about threshold heart rate. So for me, about 160 beats per minute. And then Wednesday gym and an easy, easy run.

\[10:01\] Today, another easy run. I'll do a weighted hike later tonight. So wearing a weight vest, I was. Going to ask about this. We'll come back to it. Can you go? Yeah. Friday, tomorrow I'll do a tempo run, so probably three sets of 10 minutes, just around like 405, four, 10 pace. And then Saturday will be long run, so 3 hours in the trails and then Sunday just like a back to back. So I'll do another couple of hours and probably I might go to Montville on the Sunshine Coast and run down the hill several

\[10:31\] times. So getting that long downhill stimulus in the legs. And then drive back up or how do you go about doing that? I can run back up, takes about half an hour to run back, so I might start at the top and run down so I can do a couple of ups and couple of downs and yeah. And and what kind of case is that going to be? Well, for a couple of hours. Might be 20\. And the week. After week, probably 120, OK. Yeah. OK. And what's what would you peak at? Like what's the goal kind of peak mileage at one stage?

\[11:03\] Well, it's a big week, yeah. So the biggest week I've done to date is 144, but I've had a full time job up until two weeks ago, so I'm hoping I can top that now that I'm not working full time anymore. So hopefully 160 to 180 I might might get up, but. That's great to hear because you know, for what you've achieved and especially how you've run over the past few months to know you've only that's a mileage. You don't because I think a lot of people listen and think mileage, think long distance and think, you know, I've got a, you hear marathon runners running 16180 in 200 KA week.

\[11:36\] So I'm doing a Miler. I must have to do like 200 plus plus plus. Are you getting the results of, you know, that type of mileage? Yes, with extra recovery, yes, with everything else you of course there's improvement, but it's also really encouraging I think and most people this listen, the mileage isn't always more, more, more. Oh, exactly. Yeah, I think a lot of people are sort of encouraged when they see my mileage, which hasn't really been big by any means. I've, yeah, got a history of stress fractures, so I tried not to put too much volume in the

\[12:09\] body. And I know that having had a really stressful job, that really has contributed to my injury risk as well. So that's partly why I've sort of kept the mileage a little bit down and I'm also working on a PhD. So time is a factor in not being able to do too many miles as well. So, but I really do think if you are consistent across a long period of time, you can build up those miles in your legs. It doesn't have to be massive weeks. And, and for a lot of people that are juggling multiple things, if you are putting in massive mileage, you're just really running yourself down and getting so exhausted that you're

\[12:40\] probably not getting the best out of yourself in training anyway. What's PhD? What are you? What are you? What are you into? Well, and all PhDs are some really strange niche topic, aren't they? But minds on social influences on firefighters, occupational dietary behaviour, so in laypeople's terms, is around like workplace culture and tradition and peer pressure and looking at how that affects what firefighters eat when they're at work. What it affects? What they eat. That's pinpointed. That is when it started with social media.

\[13:11\] I'm thinking, OK, firefighter influences, how that's going to be like. Where are we going here? One what they ended at work. Yeah. So my, my bachelor's degree is in nutrition and dietetics. Yeah. And then I did 4 years as a full time firefighter up in Darwin and then a couple of years as an on-call fire in SA. So yeah, that's how I got interested in those different things. That is amazing and. Then what? So explain a bit more like what? What are you finding out? Number one, that's what I'm asking, but two, like what's the

\[13:41\] end result? Is it to make the meat healthier at work or like what's what's influencing them to eat a certain way? Yeah, so it's the culture of. Well, don't spoil the PhD I. Mean, hey, this is, this is this is. Spoiler alert. The summary for. Everyone out there who wants you can't wait to read Holly's PhD. What? What's this? What's the sell for some investment here? Yeah. Just going, I haven't actually done the data analysis yet. I've I've done the interviews, but I think actually it's changing a lot. So part of the reason I got

\[14:11\] interested in it was because when I was a firefighter, obviously coming in as a dietitian, I had some strong ideas about how much we should eat and what we should eat. Because it's quite often that firefighters will do a big cook up together at work. You know, you've got time, you've got a kitchen facility, you'll go out and buy groceries and then you'll do a communal meal for the lunchtime or the dinner meal. And some of the informal rules that some of the older firies would tell you about make sure you have 300 grammes of meat per person and this and that. And I'm thinking that is ridiculous, like that is 3-4

\[14:42\] servings of meat, we don't need to eat that in one meal. But if I didn't bring that much, they would go out to the shops and buy more and force me to cook it. Wow. So this is sort of how I got interested in this topic, but I think it is changing and it's obviously to do with the people who self selected to participate in my study. A lot of them were very health orientated and very into their fitness and usually training for a sport outside of work. But it seems to be a lot of people are now bringing their own food in.

\[15:12\] But even then, you get people looking at it and go, oh, that's rabbit food, or you don't make friends with salad and all these types of comments. So yeah, ultimately, I'd like to, I'd like my research to inform interventions to help firefighters eat more healthy because they are actually at higher risk of cardiovascular disease and some other conditions than the general population. But I'm also interested in the effect that it has on mental health, so the social aspect of eating together, it kind of builds A-Team cohesion and helps communication skills and those

\[15:42\] sorts of things and protective for mental health for first responders. So that's yeah. That is fascinating, yeah. And with the nutrition background, the obvious question then is do you think that's an advantage And like that you were like one up in in the Miler space, in the ultra space, like are you doing things? Do you think you're doing things differently? You've got your own ideas. Yeah, I do. I think it helps knowing the theory so you have a place to start and you can work from that and kind of figure out where you

\[16:15\] sit on that. So what works for you? But I guess like anything, you know, the mechanics got the worst maintained car, you know, in the street. Like, I know what to do. Doesn't mean I always do it. No. Oh. You're right. The new KFC, what was it? The protein? Yeah. Protein Protein menu. 30 grammes of protein things, if you're OK. So let's we'll go more practical Liam here. Do I need to lose weight I. Was well, we could.

\[16:45\] We could cover that. Because a big shit out to radio. I know he's listening and I know he plays along. Last time I tried to run fast, radio said lose 5 kilos. I might thank you I. Always need more pointed towards the towards the Milo. Like practically listeners love hearing information that one they can take some things away from and also just like put into practise as well. But using Liam, we've got a Miler like what kind of strategy and just this talk for the race at the moment training so much. What type of strategy in the Miler?

\[17:16\] Like would you suggest Liam start looking at and then maybe how he put into practise some things along the way to work out what will be best for human? Yeah, I would start by looking at how many grammes of carbs you wanna take in per hour. And I'd be looking at a goal of maybe around 90 to 100, which is quite, quite a lot, but that's where the recommendations are heading for these ultra insurance events. So then we'd look at, OK, how do we make up 90 grammes of carbs? So do you like gels? Do you like drinks that have carbohydrate in them? Do you like solid foods?

\[17:49\] So I would start with solid food and try that on training runs and see how you go with it. And then if it doesn't sit well, then I'd be looking at things like you choose and you sort of more solid lollies and that sort of and. Why start from a place of solid food as opposed to the gels? Like why? Why couldn't I just make up 90 to 100 grammes of of carbs with gels? Well, you definitely could, but a lot of people find that going so long. So Liam, sorry, I don't know how long you're you think you're

\[18:20\] going to take for them. It's going. To take a long time, probably it's going to take a long time. Yeah, so. I don't know how long it's going to take either. Give us an estimate. That's the scary part about all this. Look, a friend of mine, my mate did it last year and it took him I think 2829 hours. I'd love to beat him. Yeah. So that's a long time to just be eating gels. And anyone that's had a lot of gels will know that at some point you start feeling a bit sick and you don't want any more gels, OK? What? What could a solid, what could be 90 to 100? Did you say 90 to 120 or?

\[18:51\] Yeah, it could be 90 to 120\. What's that look like in solid food for you? Or like give a suggestion like an example. Yeah, we could eat. So some of the things I like are strip waffles. Have you heard of those? Some of the sports brands do them waffles. Yeah, it's like. A little flat Maple ones. As well. Yeah, yeah, it's like a little flat sort of pancake. Oh yes, with a bit of caramel sauce or. Well, they have about 30 grammes per one. Yep, I. Can see three of those for every hour for 28 hours. Bananas usually a popular

\[19:22\] choice. Some people will go sandwiches. I don't like sandwiches because the bread goes stale and then it's hard to eat, but some people will go a vegemite sandwich for a more saltier, savoury sort of flavour. People like salted potatoes, cooked potatoes. They'll probably offer them at the aid station. Salted potatoes. Yeah, like cooked. Cooked cold salted potatoes. My wife's listening to this and she's just signed up for an ultra. No excuse to eat salted potatoes. Chips even. OK. Yeah, OK. Yeah, lots of options.

\[19:52\] It's always good to check out what the aid stations will be offering during the race. And you can train using some of those products so that you, if you have to rely on what they're offering at the aid stations, you'll know if that works for you. Sounds a lot like Benita Willis sitting across from us training for the marathon. Really. She said the exact same thing for the aid station. Yeah, marathon training. OK, cool. And then you want to go and try and apply this to some of your long runs to start with. So taking exactly what you think you'd take in the race and just trying it out and monitoring, you know, whether you get any

\[20:23\] stomach upsets or, you know, GI distress of any kind. And then, yeah, I guess then preparing yourself with lots of different options for race day because you're never going to be able to train over 25 to 28 hours and you don't know what might go wrong during the race. So you want to have your plan A is what you want to eat. And then your support crew, are you going to have a support crew there? Got to figure that out too. Yeah. You're not coming down, mate. Well, maybe. Maybe Courtney hasn't told me if he's going. To it makes sense now why you know when you on a Sunday you're

\[20:54\] walking in and rang, Yeah. And just at the head of the trail there's all these big, big eskies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just mate, that's what everyone's doing, just trialling out the trial. Sausage rolls in there pies. Yeah, yeah, now I've got a if you. Get into trouble. You know where to go now. So if we take it the that nutrition information is 30 grammes per, Oh no, 90 to 100 grammes per hour over the life of it. I read about you that when you

\[21:24\] attempted one of your 24 hour races that 10 hours in or 20 hours in, that you just started throwing everything up. Yes, yes, that was last year in Canberra. I did have a bit of a vomit. Yeah, 1012 hours in SO. What do you do? Just go back to water for a while until your stomach settles down and then gently try some really basic land sort of foods. A little bite at a time and hopefully your body starts accepting or or just make up some random. I think my support crew ended up

\[21:54\] coming up with some mix of it had Red Bull in it, sports drink of some description and and dissolvable Panadol and they came up with that and mixed it all together and it tasted OK and started going down all right so it's. A good mix and then what? And. Then who was it in the grand final? Who was Crook at the ground for? AFL Grand for. Yeah, someone had. Sounds like the Sony might have stole your mix. Someone had some mix of Red Bull and yeah and pickle juice and all the rest of that and Red Bull and it was a Cam Rayner. It was Rayner, yeah. Cam Rayner, He. Was a bit heavier than Panadol.

\[22:25\] Yeah, he didn't have to go for another 20-3 hours. He just had to get through the next quarter, get a bit. Of patent on that and actually sell it. So yeah. You so. OK, So Even so, it's that idea of training the nutrition and then on the day itself, if the nutrition plan goes awry for whatever reason, it's literally a case of almost reverting, like a complete reboot starting again. Yeah. And slowly introducing that. Yeah. And I think the key is just

\[22:56\] don't freak out. A lot of people will think, Oh my gosh, I'm getting no carbs in. I'm going to die. But the truth is our bodies are designed to run on fat when they need to. And so you can get through, I mean, it's not going to be pleasant. You're not going to be going as fast as you can mentally. You're probably going to be feeling pretty low. But you can survive through a little bit without those carbs coming in. It's just about getting your body right and then starting back up because yeah, for a race that long you will need to. But just trying different foods, you know, if a gel makes you

\[23:26\] sick, don't think, oh, I'll just wait 10 minutes and then I'll have another gel. You'd be surprised people do it. So yeah, try something different. So. On the other end of the spectrum, you you mentioned you can run on fat. Do you ever go the other way with training and go out faster to do any training? I used to a lot and, you know, especially when I was a cyclist and that was the thing, you know, you'd go out for hours and hours and you wouldn't eat anything. That was just the way it was done. But I think these days we have better science and we know that high carbohydrate is much more

\[23:59\] efficient for performance. It actually costs the body energy to convert fat into fuel, and you don't want to be wasting any energy when you're doing an event. Absolutely not. So let's get to the uncomfortable part. Am I running far enough at the moment? So you're doing about 70\. Doing about 70 KS with about 2000 metres of elevation. I think you'll be able to get through the race. At that volume. Yes, I think.

\[24:29\] If, if if what would you prefer those numbers were? If you could get to a couple of weeks a bit higher, like if you could hit 100 in a week. Just here's the thing, Holly, you don't have to. You don't have to dance around this. When Bonita. When Benita Willis. When I said I wanted to run under 3 hours of the Gold Coast Marathon last year, Benita Willis's first words were. I think it'll be tough here to achieve that, Right. OK. I've had my ego well and truly crushed in this studio before. What number? We're eight weeks out when we're talking. Yeah.

\[25:00\] In a perfect world, what are the numbers look like in your mind over the next month? I think it's really hard to say, sorry, I don't want to sit on the fence. But the thing with a three, with a sub three marathon, it takes a lot of training to get that speed. But with a Miler, you could walk it if you absolutely had to. And you don't need, I mean anyone if they've got the mental strength, anyone can walk 100 miles. So it's, it's a bit different. I think obviously the training gives you both the, the confidence to know that you're

\[25:33\] going into the event well trained and you've got that aerobic base. But I think it's really hard to put an actual number on it. It's probably more about the hours you spend out there than the actual number of KS you do. Because if you're doing a lot of elevation, your actual distance mileage is going to be a little bit lower. And I think the elevation you're doing is good because that's a pretty hilly course, that ETA course. 7 1/2 thousand metres of elevation going into that. One, it's solid. So on the weight Fest training I heard you mention doing a

\[26:06\] session with that is that has this all come off the back more recently off obviously Ruth who is? Ruth Croft, Yeah. Evans Yeah. Is this all, is that like now kind of made the pendulum swing and everyone's out there doing that who are doing ultras or? I don't know, I don't think everyone, I think there's some people that are a bit on the fence about it. But when I heard about them doing that, it really clicked for me because there's been a few periods where I've trained for the firefighters physical assessment test.

\[26:38\] So I've got in, in the NT obviously, and then I've also done the QLD 1 and got in. And those tests involve a lot of, you could call them sled pulls or something, because you're simulating firefighting tasks where you're dragging a hose. And so for those tests, I did a lot of drag, like sled pushes and pulls and dragging ropes with kettle bells attached to them and tyre drags and this sort of thing. And I actually did find that that translated well into my running. So then I went, OK, that makes sense. They're doing this weighted hills training, and that's kind

\[27:10\] of what I've been simulating with that sort of training. So yeah. What can what? Because I know you've tried. You've dabbled with the whole rocking thing as well a little bit with the water. Weight to be transparent it was off the back of sort read heard the information read the information and I'll I'll go and try it so. So what for question for both of you then the people listening to this, maybe they've got they're getting into trail running, maybe they've got a trail race coming up. Maybe they're just training for a 10, maybe they do been doing the T100 preparation.

\[27:41\] What are the benefits that come from this kind of weighted hiking? Yeah. So it's muscular endurance. So it's using your muscles under load for an extended period of time. It's kind of it's almost an overtraining stimulus. So because you're dragging around more weight than you will be on race day, you're getting your muscles ready to to handle that load. And then when you're lighter on race day, theoretically it should feel easier, yeah. Right. And shouldn't and some aspect of

\[28:11\] it not taking as much out of you if you were to go and try and do that running uphill to get the same effect. But what I would say is probably not the starting point. Yeah, it's it's probably like one of those. When would you include it? When would you? When would you bring it into? Meaning like it's incremental, like if you, for you, I wouldn't be going out and adding that to the mix, but why not? We'll get the basics first. I've got the basics, get some more mileage up. OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's for anyone that's that. That would be my suggestion. You don't want to overcomplicate things until you get the basics right.

\[28:42\] Yeah. And if you've got minimum amount, minimum time you can run, get out and just run and get the and get the mileage done and probably steps. And yeah, we were laughing about this because Courtney, how long does your how long does a typical strength session for you take in the gym? Oh, now maybe 45 to an hour. Yeah, OK. How long did your strength session take yesterday, Holly? An hour and 3/4\. Yeah, Holly's gotten carried away with her strength. She's she's she's we were talking about this on the run. I love the gym is. Good. Yeah, I'm loving the gym at the. Moment because what what you're saying that it's like every all the injuries you've had over the

\[29:13\] years every exercise now or. You just be back incrementally. So the calves, the quads, the hamstrings, yeah. Yeah, hopefully my physios love me because I don't ever stop doing the exercises they give me. I'm just like, if that stops that injury, I'm gonna keep doing 'cause I don't want this injury to come back ever. So now I've got like 300 exercises. I'm learning that this week, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what we were as Holly and I were running, we were talking a bit about and I was explaining my calf injuries. And because I've been given a

\[29:43\] new, because I've had some dramas with my hamstring, because it turns out I have no internal rotation in my hips whatsoever. And so Wide Momentum has introduced a new, some new exercises for me. And when he was having to show me all these ones I've never done before. And then he said, all right, next one I'm going to show you is the soleus calf phrase. I said I don't worry about that one beg. These solaces are rock hard. Yeah, I, I, that's the one injury I've had and it's the one thing I will never get injured again because I know how to train that.

\[30:13\] You've been doing that one? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Gym. Gym's fun when you you can mix in and running. And I think it does have a really good effect over the long distances, especially trail, right? How many sessions of strength are you doing a week? Three sessions. Three sessions and then that's kind of a religious like, don't you know, we don't miss strength training? No, no, I will not do it. Probably 2 weeks before a race. OK, because I think it just helps you share. I had some of that muscular fatigue and then I won't do it for probably 2 weeks post race as well. So have a I've had a few weeks off around the race I did in New

\[30:44\] Zealand, but yeah, back in there and it always hurts the first few times back it's yeah, you get pretty sore but body gets used to it pretty quickly now. So you're getting pretty deep into this ultra running scene at the moment. I've got a question what what with the Kiwi? So Ruth and Caitlin also has come on really strong. Is this something the Kiwis are doing? And this is in the men as well, like Dan Jones is killing it. Is this something the Kiwis do in the men and women that we're not that we're missing? Is it just the terrain they

\[31:14\] actually have to work with where they live? That could be it. I actually don't don't know. That's a really good question. I think Australia, we should be higher up there on the national, like on the worldwide level because we have so many great places to run and we have a lot of good trail events. But I just think perhaps it's taken a bit longer to get started here. I don't know. I know those athletes that you mentioned from New Zealand spent a lot of time overseas. Ruth was based in Thailand or Taiwan or somewhere for quite a

\[31:45\] while. So yeah, maybe it's not a New Zealand thing. Maybe it's just those special athletes and they've been, you know, professional athletes and based overseas for a while, but I. Wonder if it was Hong Kong they've got like some. Solid. Yeah, there's a few Australians who are in Hong Kong to come back and run great Trots. So maybe it's a lot to do with environment as well because you do say, well we've got some great places in Australia around, but we are elevation challenged. That's true. Like long elevation. You can go to the Blue Mountains and run, you know, short. You can come out in the back of the Gold Coast and run short.

\[32:16\] But we don't have mountains. No, no, I mean. We just don't. That's the reality. It's the reality. I've found more than enough elevation for my liking on the trails I've been running. I want to ask you about the support crew. You mentioned it, and as I look to Nick sitting in the corner here, I imagine is that the crew for his fair few events? How important, how do you deal with them, instructions, all that sort of stuff on on whether it be a Miler, a multi day race, overnight race, backyard ultra, what what is your attitude to

\[32:47\] your support crew? Oh, they're everything. I could not do what I have done in ultra running without them, that's for sure. And now imagine Nick's not here. Useless. Don't. Don't have a support? No. But here's the question what's the most interesting thing Nick has had to do for you within the race? Oh wow. As a support crew member. I didn't know if this is suitable for. Yeah, this is podcast. Anything suitable? Okay, well. And if and if I will say to the

\[33:19\] in the beginning family, if you hear a long beep in this next section, we've decided it's not suitable. All right, right, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna say this because I feel like women are opening up a lot more on podcasts. And, you know, this is an issue that women do face. This is actually not something Nick really had to deal with hands on thankfully. But during the 24 hour race in Canberra at the beginning of last year, I had my period during the race and I was using a tampon and that sort of started to become untenable. And I got to my little support

\[33:49\] crew tent which was right on the side of the track and there's a wheelie bin sitting there. And I said to Nick, don't look, cover your eyes, it's not going to be pretty. And I opened up the wheelie bin and I removed the tampon and put it straight feet there on the side of the track. Oh, I'm just looking at Nick. This is this is you we do you remember I talked to you about this at kunanyi that I started that race yes and this red woman in front of me this I I changed my perception on trial running and and female the things.

\[34:19\] We don't have to deal with. This poor woman, we were only three KS into this race and she was screaming and I was I I was I said are you OK? And she just looked at me with almost with tears and I said, I've got my period. And I was like, this isn't fair. Like this isn't like I, I, I got angry at myself. I'm like, you should try and harder. You're a massive worse. Like look at what this poor woman is having to go through, not cause of any lack of preparation, just because of the way the female body works. That's yeah, that's. Crazy and it is just uncanny how often it happens on the day of a

\[34:52\] race. You think, you know maybe you're gonna race 3 or 4 times have an A race throughout the year. You think surely the chances are not that great that it's going coincide every single time, but somehow it it often does, which is, yeah, I mean races I will say are getting better at catering for it. But with those 24 hour races, every second is important when you're trying to do what I'm trying to do. So if you've got to run off the side of the course, go into a toilet cubicle, lock the door, sit down, deal with your stuff and then come back out, you might have lost two minutes. And that means you have to run 5

\[35:24\] seconds per K faster now to get to the distance that you wanted to get to. So and. That to stay on this for a moment, Courtney, that's not a I'm thinking about. I'm putting my media hat on here. You get to a the post race interview. That's not an interview I've ever heard about. It wasn't my day today. I was on my period or it would like. That's not a conversation I've ever heard in a women's elite race at any level about anything. Which, now that you think about it, it's crazy that we haven't

\[35:54\] heard that conversation in women's elite sport before, because it must have happened. Well, we heard it. We heard it a little bit off the back of that triathlon. Remember there was a. Lot of media about that. Yeah, we go on the pink Tri suit. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, we did. Yeah. So anyway, going back to support crew. Yes, they have to do all kinds of weird and. Wonderful. Yes. Would you recommend doing it? Because my wife Alana has said she is thinking about coming down, Yeah. Would you recommend using your partner? Yes, yes, if they know how to deal with you and they're okay

\[36:27\] with seeing you in a lot of pain, which is hard for some partners. Yeah, my wife would be fine with them. So my parents came to a backyard ultra that we did last year, and I know they were really nervous because we had to give them a big pep talk and say, I'm going to be crying, I'm going to be angry, I'm going to be sad. I'm going to be all these things. And you have to say, go on, get out there, get on with it. You're not allowed to stop. And that's going to be hard for you, but you're going to have to do it. So if your partner is someone that can push you to keep going when you're feeling like that and you're saying, I don't want

\[36:58\] to go on, I can't do this, it's too hard, then she's going to be a good choice. If she's not, if she's going to say, all right, Liam, you can stop now. Let's go to the pub. She'd happily tell me if I said if I gave her that pre raised pep talk of I'm not allowed to quit, you have to make sure I never stay at a night station, she'd be like yeah, she'd be rubbing her hands together. Finally permission to say all the things I've always wanted. My mum on the other hand would make me stop after 10K. Oh you look tired. Why don't you have a thought and we'll just call it a day. We'll go back there. Exactly. OK, and what about?

\[37:29\] And what actually I've got a question on this one. Do you get to sleep during? Do you take your rest? We're looking, we're looking at. We're in the corner here because I'm just thinking if you're out there, if you haven't got multiple people, it's probably harder as the support crew sometimes because you're not out running right. So once you're up for 14-16 hours, it gets pretty tough. It's it's hard like for the backyard ultras when we go for multiple days, it's the schedule is yes, I have time away and I'm

\[38:03\] go and sleep like actually getting to sleep is a totally different you're absolutely wired you're. Still wired you're. Still thinking about things, it's really hard to step away and do it. But say race the Sun, when we were up for 30 hours or something and driving and doing all sorts of things, that was like, when there's a definite end, it's sort of OK, but with a backyard, it's impossible. Like you talk to Phil Gore and Jim and how they do it and all those guys, it's yeah, you have

\[38:33\] to have a shit. Different ball game I remember because look with with Red Bull race the Sun, I always say the drivers have got the hardest task of all because they were limited on cars. So you've got minimal drivers. The runners can probably jump in and help a bit, but you're still never really going to get to sleep. Even now when we're just like making sure the runners are OK and everything else, I'm like, I'm just going to have a Kip quickly and you know, 10 minutes in the car just to get some shut eye. But yeah, that's I've always wondered with the 24 hour 1, so how hard it is to. What about setting expectations about you?

\[39:03\] Talk about it's going to be hard for you to see me and that making sure your loved ones understand if that's who you're dealing with or friends or whoever might be. What about expectations that you have of what you'll need? So we plan a lot. So we have a big race plan saying what I'm going to need when, which is designed to make it easier. But of course, things never go to plan. Or they might go to plan for a few hours and then so you know, things happen that that weren't

\[39:35\] in the plan. And that's where having someone that's very experienced in crewing like Nick comes in handy because he can think on his feet. He's done it for me for a lot of years and previously had a partner who was in Ironman triathlons who accrued as well. So he's got that experience to know if something goes wrong, I can make it up or I can offer you the these options of what you can do. And he knows what not to say, which is what do you want or what do you need? Because when you're in that situation, you have no idea and you can't. Be straight.

\[40:05\] You can't even talk usually properly. So yeah, he knows how to just offer me a couple of options. And yeah. I'm actually Courtney and I've talked a bit about this previous episodes, but I am beyond the Mila. I'm actually, I would love to find an opportunity to crew because I do want to have the experience of my wife's running the Gold Coast Marathon this year, which she doesn't need a crew for. And I'm really excited that I'll get to be there at the finish line working to to call her over the line. That's I'm genuinely excited about that because she's never done one before. But I would love that experience

\[40:37\] of going through the crewing process and trying to be that person for someone in one of these races because I feel like it would be a different experience in this running world that. And it's a team, you need them. You're not going to get through it well without polls or no polls for Liam. Definitely polls. Have you got polls? Yeah, I don't have polls yet. I don't have polls yet. Anderson from Our Friend from Wild Earth is trying to help me sort me out with some stuff at the moment. But yeah, I'm not overly organised. And why? Why are polls important and how? I've never run with them before.

\[41:09\] The only time I've ever held polls like that is skiing. What? What should I be doing? How should I be practising? Do I need to Is it one run with over you know 10K is a practise or is it well how should I be using these things? Well, what they do is they help take some of the load off your legs, especially when you're climbing and load up your upper body instead. So you're kind of sharing the load around different muscle groups, which can help because yeah, your legs are obviously going to get very fatigued over that that far. So yes, I would definitely be practising with them.

\[41:41\] For some people, they might find it difficult. It's just another technique to learn, right? I just watched a few YouTube videos when I first got mine and you know, there's basically two different strategies you can use. You can alternate the poles, which is generally if you're on a lesser gradient, you might. It's kind of like opposite arm to leg, just like you're hiking. It's pretty intuitive, really. Yeah. And then you can do the double pole and that would be more like when you're doing a really steep climb and you can almost simulate that with a skier. Would you use them on steps?

\[42:13\] No, probably not. It depends on what the steps are made of. But if they're sealed, yeah, like you're not gonna get any purchase. No, that's what I'm thinking, because UTA, the mile with the Grand Staircase and all the further steps and all that sort of stuff, there's a lot of sealed stairs, yeah. Through there. That'll be tricky, I think, and you may also want your. There's a handrail. Too. Yeah. So if you want your hands free to use the handrail or? And I'll. Probably fall over. Crawling by that point as well anyway. But what's the worst thing that's gone wrong for you in one of these races? How many miles have you done?

\[42:43\] Do you know what I haven't actually done? An official Miler. I've done about half a dozen races that are longer than a Miler, but I've never actually done. The Western States will be my first official. But you've gone long, yeah. What's what's the what's the? Talk us through some of the pitfalls you found during these races. I think under fuelling is a massive 1 and that can happen unintentionally. Sometimes your hands are just busy or your mind's busy or whatever and you just forget.

\[43:13\] Other times, I think once in the guzzler I just ran out of nutrition or I had one gel left in my pack and I couldn't find it. And you just kind of hit a hit a wall and that's when your mind starts to play games with you. When you don't have enough carbohydrate, it starts to tell you that you need to pull out, you need to stop, this is too hard. So I just sat down at the aid station and had a big cry and then and it gave me some food and gels and said come on, if you want to be a professional trail runner, get off your ass and keep going.

\[43:43\] Tough love, tough love. The thing is, my wife can't say that to me because I'll turn around. I don't want to be a professional trail runner. OK. So under, under nutrition or under? Nutrition Yep, Injury, of course is always a risk and really all you can do is strengthen yourself in the gym and and on the trails to prepare for it and then race a smart race like don't go beyond your abilities don't go sprinting down a hill if that's not how you've trained to run the race. You know, run your own race don't get involved in any kind of back and forth with other

\[44:14\] people or overextend if it's if it's slippery or rocky or whatever. You just got to watch your footing and that's all you can do. And of course there's going to be unforeseen incidents that happen, but. Have you ever DNF D? Only once. Oh, wow. I mean, technically you DNF in a backyard ultra if you're not the winner or the assist, But other than that, only once in a triathlon. Otherwise, I that was like, challenge Batemans Bay. Yeah. What happened there? I had some sort of injury.

\[44:46\] I might have had a stress fracture actually that I didn't realise. Stresses. OK, OK, so right pitfalls during the race sounds like nutrition is the done one thing we talked a bit about how nutrition the training numbers. I know I've got to bump these up. You and I are going to talk after the podcast about how this is going to look. I'm I'm bringing Holly into my employee. I'm going to be getting Holly to help me out with these final. There's going to be a lot of a lot of happy listeners, Liam. Yeah, I've been a lot of concerns.

\[45:17\] Well, let me ask you this. Do you think this far in I've made a mistake on having a coach? No, I don't have a coach. See, totally fine. I might I might become really good at this by not having a coach. Courtney, what are you, what, what is your attitude towards coaching and, and, and people going into this with a coach without a coach? What you know from your perspective? What? What? Is there a right way to be approaching trail running like this? I don't.

\[45:48\] I don't like right and wrong. They're very. Everything in running I find is very grey. It's hard to. That's a good answer. Sorry, sitting on the fence again. No. No. For some people, yes, a coach is a great idea and that would be people that well, maybe beginners that that don't really have any experience. I mean, I had no experience in trail running, but I had experience in other endurance sports. So the training principles really just carry over. It's just the terrain and, you know, the sport that's a bit different.

\[46:18\] But people who don't know when to stop that just will push themselves and push themselves and not listen to their body. That's people that can benefit from having a coach, but it it's tricky to find the right coach. I think some people I know have a coach that thinks they should be doing a lot more than what they're doing, but when they listen to their body, they think, no, I'm already really exhausted, I can't do more. And then, you know, I think people have cycled through a few different coaches in order to find one that really they can

\[46:49\] really like to. Yeah, I trust, yeah. So, OK, I think it's too late to bring one on board now because you've got 8 weeks to go till the race. OK, I don't know, I could be, I could be wrong about that. OK, but. Sounds like he's bringing you on, Holly. Holly and I are going to talk about what the next 8 weeks. Well, bearing in mind I do have this time next week as people listen to this, I will be running the Noosa 50K next week on the Saturday. Yep. Then my recovery run will be the

\[47:20\] T100 10K. OK, I'm not, I'm not, Yeah, I'm not setting any records in there. And it might be more of a walk than it is a run for me, but. Yeah, now I saw on your on your Instagram, you obviously and now it makes sense. You've got a sailing background. Three peaks. Yes. Are you doing it? Are you in what's explaining this to race to everyone? Because it popped up on my emails the other day and I was like, this is something I could get around but I couldn't sail it. You don't need to be able to sail.

\[47:51\] So is it actually going ahead? Is that what your email said? But pretty conf. Yeah, I think it. This year is. The one down in Tassie. Yeah. So you brought this up last year? No, I can't remember. Not sure. You guys keep talking. So pretty much pretty much as far as I understand it, it is a a sale. Run to the top of a peak somewhere back down, sail to the next location, run up to the top of a peak. I assume three peaks. Yes, yes, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's. But someone else sails for you.

\[48:21\] Yes. So you have a boat crew and then you also have two runners aboard the boat. So yeah, it was going until it must have started in the 80s and then it stopped a few years back and they haven't run it for a while. And now they're talking about getting it back up and going, which I would love to be involved. I used to actually be the media officer for it. Oh. Right. Oh, I see you're across it. How far? How far is this? Like where do you go? How far is the actual sailing element of? It oh, I couldn't tell you in nautical miles, but it starts in in the Tamer River in northern Tasmania and you sail from there to Flinders Island, which is the

\[48:53\] first stop. So the sailors get you there and then the two runners get off the boat, They run up to the top of Mount Strzelecki, which is a 65K run round trip. Yeah. And so this is was my first exposure to ultra running. I didn't know it existed before I got on board with the Three Peaks race. And then you get back on the boat, the runners do and they sail down the East Coast of Tassie and stop at Coles Bay, which has the the hazards beach and the the mountain range there. So there's, I think it's about a 45K loop that they run over the the hazards and then back on the

\[49:25\] boat and you sail all the way down to Hobart, jump off the boat and you run up to the top of Mount Wellington and back. So yeah, that's a bit. It's a shorter one, but it's. Very hard. Like it sounds like a fun concept, but it's a lot of elevation in those peaks. That's a, it's A and did they use all different size boats or like you just thought you could bring whatever you wanted, right? Yeah. I mean, it has to be a yacht. Oh yeah. Couldn't use it. No, not. Some of the those, not a tinny or something massive. Yeah. You couldn't just jump in a tinny with a little outboard. Some some come in, you know, a

\[49:57\] little dinghy-style, and then some bring down the super yachts. They have a handicap system, so it's an algorithm that works out based on, you know. Letter sailing, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, super. And they used to have a rule that you could have any sort of human powered device on the boat. So people used to have these like essentially bike trainers rigged up on the back of the boats that would paddle a propeller or they had oars. Some of them, they'd row the boat. So if you run out of wind, you could still power the boat move. That's awesome. Interesting race.

\[50:27\] Yeah. But if it does get up, I've. Yeah, like I said, I've seen a few things come. Across you've already you've talked to your mate Tom Slings we have you and you'd be like to go down there that would. Be Italian crew mate I've got. A one of those massive foils turns up. Yeah, yeah. Courtney Atkinson sitting on the keel. Hey, let's go back to the mile. Stop talking about sailing races. So training, nutrition support crew, words of advice for the day.

\[50:59\] Slash. Days. Or I mean, that's a big topic, but one thing we haven't talked about yet is mindset, so. Oh yes, let's go. So now what? This is the thing I wanted to talk to you about as well, because when we were going for our little jog before this, Holly, we're talking about some of the races she's gone in some of the people that might win these races. And she's talking about the idea of what was the what was the phrase used that when these younger track, track athletes that are performing really well, what's the thing you older athletes rely on? Mind experience. Mind. Experience. I love Case.

\[51:30\] I love this. What? Is you've got a bit of mind. Experience. No, unfortunately no. But what is? What is mind experience? Well, it's essentially the ability. I'd say it's a number of elements to it, but one is to think about how you've overcome tough things in your life before. And so if you can do that, then you can overcome the pain in your legs or whatever is going on in the Miler. And another one would be being aware of how your thoughts impact what's going to happen. So if you get into that mindset

\[52:01\] where you're like, this is crap, I hate this. What it? Why am I out here? What am I doing this for? This sucks. I'm absolutely going to fall into that at some point though, yeah. And if you don't catch it, you can believe your mind and you'll be like, OK, right, I need to stop. I'm going to pull out the next aid station. What? What are some techniques you used to get over that? Well, I, I'm not very good at it, but I try practising meditation because the point of meditation is to realise your thoughts and then send yourself back, back to your breath. So essentially you're realising that you're having this thought.

\[52:32\] It's just a thought, it's not necessarily the truth. And you can then bring your mind back to something that's more helpful, so. I like that. Yeah, I like that. That's good. Clip that one up. Make that a thing so I can remember it. No. I'm just thinking we we have time in the morning before the radio. Show in between songs. Yeah, yeah. OK what So that's that's a good technique for snapping out of those thoughts. How do you how do you engage your mindset pre these races?

\[53:06\] I usually come up with a plan, so how am I going to attack the race? So this race in New Zealand that I recently did, I did also last year, 12 months ago, and I had so many mindset strategies for that race that I felt completely overwhelmed. I'd also put a lot of pressure on myself to perform really well at it and it didn't, it totally backfired. I mean, it didn't help that I was sick going into the race, but I just didn't have the day that I wanted to at all. So this year I decided to have a different plan of attack and that was just to enjoy the race.

\[53:39\] I just wanted to go out, see the scenery, have a good time. I wanted to I feel good and not like I was constantly under pressure or, you know, that I that I had to get some certain result to make it worth it. I just wanted to go and trust the training that I've done and have a good day out. And, you know, apparently that worked a lot better than trying to force myself to win. And so that's your race, that's your mindset going into the race. Do you, because a lot of people talk about the idea of breaking the race up into distance segments or time segments or

\[54:10\] anything like that. Do you do that? Yes, yes, that's a technique often called chunking and yes, definitely use that. So in a big trail race, it's usually for me, I'd find it between the aid stations is the most logical place to to chunk it. Or if you know the course, you can break it down into this. There's this climb and then there's this descent or whatever. But often you don't have that luxury. So the aid stations is easy. But then with track races and things, you might just think just about this lap. So instead of thinking, jeez, I've got another 23 hours to go, which is just overwhelming for

\[54:43\] your mind to think about or for you in the Miler it might be, oh, I've got another 100 KS to go. Like, I don't know if I can do that. You just bring yourself back to the present and be like, don't worry about the 100 KS, worry about this step, this 10 metres, this kilometre and just yeah, stay, stay in the present. Otherwise your mind tries to get ahead of it. So. What about pacing? So like a strategy? Like a pacing strategy? How? How do you even work out how quick I'm going to run the 1st 20K? Yeah, I don't know. I was talking to him about this

\[55:13\] on the run. It's really hard with trail racing because obviously the terrain just makes 100% of difference to your pacing. I don't think you can really choose a pace to run. It's dictated by the course and the conditions. If you're lucky enough to have competitors around you, you can use them as a bit of a a gauge. But it's also a risk, right? Yes, yes, because you don't know anything about how they've prepared or what state they're in. Yes. So that would be, I think that's probably looking at your real

\[55:43\] competitive top end of the field. I think for most people it's more of an effort. Like if you go back to the old ratings perceived exertion type scale for something like a Miler, you know, most people want to be probably around A5 because you really can't be pushing up around your Lactaid threshold or you're going to blow up big time. So it's more a conversational pace. Like if you can run along and you feel like you'd be capable of holding a conversation, unless you're going up a big hill, I think that's probably

\[56:13\] the right sort of intensity to be to be running it out. And that's AI don't know somebody else might have a better. Yeah. No, no, no. That's that's great. And then what's the goal like to go through, I don't know, 60-70 K? Do you think I want to go through 6070 K and this is how I should feel at that stage? Or you don't get into those queues because like we when we're talking marathoning a lot, we've all pretty much all the marathoners. I've come in saying I want to get to 30 K and I want to feel like now the race starts.

\[56:46\] Yeah. You know, like this is a completely different ball game. Where is it for you that you go? Do you have a place where you think, OK, now I'm this is the race start or do I have to get to this point in the race before I feel like I'm comfortable to let loose? What's what's the feelings? And it just kind of depends on the course. So Tarawera, the race in New Zealand is a really tricky one because the 1st 50 kilometres of the race, the first half is really quite simple. It's like the terrain is so runnable, there's not huge hills

\[57:19\] in it, it's very easy to go out too fast. And then it's the back half of the course where all the ascending and all the technical parts are. So you really have to hold yourself back. So I think knowing the course is a big advantage that you've been to the UK, you've done the 50s, so you've done parts of the course, so that will be helpful. But yeah, you always want to feel good for as long as you can. And I think the reality is you can't control that. You just have to embrace the fact that sometimes you're going

\[57:50\] to feel awful. But the key is to know that that's probably going to go away in a race that long. When you start feeling awful, it doesn't mean you're going to feel more and more and more and more awful till the end of the race. You can actually come out the other side and be like, oh, you know, that was a tough spot, but now I feel better and maybe that's. You know, it's good to know because in my mind that my my mood and how I feel, it's it's linear. It's like as more time goes passes, the graph does this. So that's right. The idea that there is a way back from the void. We could sit here and just keep

\[58:23\] going about this all day. I want to hit you with some more things though, some key things while I've got you headphones, yes. Do you use them? Yes I do, as long as they're not banned by the race organisation. What are you listening to? Music. Podcasts. Music. I funnily enough, when I'm training only podcasts and when I'm racing only music. And I don't want to tell you what I listen to because it's really embarrassing. Yeah. You've got to tell us. You have to tell us. Now, so I have this playlist of songs that I grew up with. Like it's mostly 80s Australian

\[58:53\] rock, like 90's pop. You're. Aware of what station I worked, I reckon I could back announce every song on your playlist if you wanted me to. Here's Solid Rock by Goanna. Absolutely. That's on there for sure. Yeah, percent. But then you've got your more embarrassing like your Hanson and your S Club 7 wrong. With that get into the Hanson well, hence it doesn't quite make us, but I S Club I'm right there with you. There aren't no party like an S Club party caught me for those playing along at home. Look, it's got to be upbeat. It's got to be something that I know really well. I don't like listening to songs

\[59:23\] that I don't know how they go or what the lyrics are. I don't know why that is interesting. I think it's something to do with your brain space when you're because you're already sort of maxing out your brain. Time to learn the words. That's right. Yeah. It's got to be something that I know. So yeah, I don't know funny, but that's. Interesting. OK. It's in my running playlist and I listen to it every single race. You'd think I'd be so sick of it now. How how many songs? Yes, great. Yeah, it. Goes for over 24 hours obviously. Wow, so. It's 300\. So you never get a repeat.

\[59:53\] Well, it's. Just like the radio, no repeat work day. Pretty much, but you know, Spotify goes on its own tangent sometimes. Oh, so you've just done the like I like this song radio and it's just pumped out. Yeah, sometimes. It goes. Off. On it's good night running yes two questions a talk to me a little bit about what it's like that that you know that hour post midnight when most of us will never have experience running and should I do some in the later. Yes, definitely practise as many aspects of the race as you can.

\[01:00:26\] And it's very different to running in the daytime because when you're using a head torch, the depth perception is so much different. Like, I don't know, I can't explain how, but you go out and try it and you'll see that a rock is not in the same place that you think the rock is. And it just feels so different. Like you feel, it can feel very lonely, especially if you've got no runners around you. It can feel a bit scary. And it's so quiet. And I think just, it might be to do with your circadian rhythms

\[01:00:58\] or something. But your mood gets quite low around that 2 or 3 AM sort of mark, because you're not supposed to be up running at that time. Maybe the breakfast radio will help having such an early alarm, yeah. And all those, all those sleepless weekends with the footy. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe my shit sleep will finally pay. Off. You've obviously tried to like. You've obviously tried a few different head torches. You have a recommendation of what works for you. Phoenix ones are really good, really strong air. Get the highest amount of lumen. Just go for the biggest lumens

\[01:01:29\] you. Can, yeah, as long as it's not super heavy. I mean, you're going to have to carry it for a while and you'll need a backup one as well. I imagine they make you carry. Yeah, they do have to carry too. Part of the compulsory. OK, this is good. So Knight Racing. Troll it. Go with a big torch. Expect to get sad at about 2:00 AM. Yeah. What about spare clothes? Spare runners, how do you approach it? Do you take? Are you setting off in what you're gonna finish in? Do you change runners? Do you change clothes?

\[01:01:59\] When? Why? Talk to me a bit about that. We always have. My support crew has a full change of clothes and probably one or two different pairs of shoes and socks. Do I ever use them? Almost never, but if I didn't have them with me, guaranteed I would want them. They're there in case if my feet get really wet and possibly in western states because there's several river crossings. It may be that I want to change because your feet will blister really easily once your skin gets wet. So foot care is a big with these longer races, you need to make

\[01:02:32\] sure you're using chafe creams or whatever system you find works for you. I use the toe socks, which I find really good. Don't prevent all blisters, but help a lot. And then you know, shoe changes. Same reason if you if you're wet or muddy or whatever, you may want to change the shoes. I tend not to do it because it's slow because obviously when my racing I'm going for the fastest time possible. But for people that are out on the course longer and not expecting to compete for the

\[01:03:02\] win, it's more about comfort and it's about getting you to the end in as good a shape as you can. So I would I recommend having the option there and having spare clothes. I mean, in 24 hours, the weather can change so dramatically, especially in the mountains. You might get hot, cold. If you're wet, you might want to put something dry on. Just have all the options there. Yeah. Would you do you see if you don't your competitors doing this or would you consider going trailing to like a pair of super shoes If the course is right, like western states, there may be a case like that.

\[01:03:34\] Yes, and we'll definitely have that option there. But from what I've heard, the front runners are going so fast now that it's just not an option to take that time to change your shoes. But I was thinking maybe I go back to the old triathlon days and I put the elastic laces in, make it a little bit quicker. I don't know, I have to practise. They're going so fast over 161 KS. You don't have time to change shoes. That's that's insane. That's probably. More about the rubber band

\[01:04:04\] breaking. So if you're running like in groups and then suddenly you get, you're hanging with the group and then you lose that 100 metres with that breaks, you lose the group and then suddenly the day looks very different. I can understand in that situation, but timing wise, I mean we'll ask you in a minute what you're running in, but like depending on the. Shoe Courtney was going to ask you that. Yeah, depending on the shoe, it's it's going to be, you know, we know how much the plated shoes can make a difference. If the trail shoe isn't plated

\[01:04:36\] in the way that some of the Super shoes may be, You're gonna make that time up in the Super shoe. Yeah. 1010 seconds, 20 seconds. A change of shoe. I'd be going with the Super shoe. Yes. What shoes are you right? Yeah. You're not gonna get out of here without. Well, what? What's what's in the? What's in the quiver? What's in the? Quiver yeah, I've got a lot of different pairs of shoes because I don't have a shoe sponsor, so I just run in whatever I like. In Tarawera, I actually chose the Nike Zoom Fly. So that's their carbon plated shoe, but not the top of the range because as you probably

\[01:05:07\] know, the top of the range Alphaflys have this big section through the sole of the shoe that'll pick up rocks, mud, anything that you're going to cover in the trail run. And you do not want that in your shoe, so. So the fly not a trail shoe. Not a trail shoe and not and not very stable. So if you're turning a lot of corners or trying to jump over rocks or whatever you're doing, yeah, not not a great choice. But the Zoom fly's a little bit more stable, hasn't got that super huge heel on it and doesn't have the sections in the sole that are going to pick up

\[01:05:39\] all those bits and pieces. So I chose that which in hindsight I don't know if it was the best choice because it was really wet day, very muddy day, but some of the sections were just so slippery that I don't think any shoe would have had any grip on that. So I chose those because they were good in the gravel Rd sections and they were really good for the last 7 KS, which is essentially almost Rd into Rd ruler. So yeah, in the end I was pretty happy with that choice. OK. Training. Training.

\[01:06:09\] So I've been doing a lot of trails in the Tarkine Trail Devil, which is this Australian company out of Perth, and I quite like that. It's not a, it's not a super shoe, doesn't have a carbon sole, but just nice, grippy, fairly lightweight sort of trainer. What else? I've just received a pair of the Hoka Speedgoats and only tried them out a couple of times, but I really like them so far. Really grippy. What'd you choose today with Liam for the? I just went with my standard. Shoes the.

\[01:06:41\] Nike Pegasus is my. Pegasus is a day. Shoe. OK, yeah, Doc Martin. Gumboots. You're running gumboots today with me. Crocs. Hey, it's good hearing an unbiased view because you're not because you're you're choosing and buying like it's an honest review and you're not stuck on one brand that's unique. Quickly, because we, I mean, again, we could keep you here and we, we had a whole heap of other kind of general running things that we probably would love to get your thoughts on, but we're definitely going to have you on again at a later date. Running with where it is now.

\[01:07:13\] This, this podcast was born out of the fact that this country and globally, I think we're going through a running boom. Running has never been more popular. Australia is, is having an amazing period of success at the elite level. It's obviously the participation rates are through the roof. We're seeing the event growth, we're seeing sell out marathons, all that sort of stuff. Where do you think it's at? What are you enjoying about running? Are there upsides? Are there downsides? Where? Where's your mindset at with running in this country? Yeah, it's great that it's going through such a boom. Well, because I love it and yeah, I seem to be doing all

\[01:07:45\] right at it, but just to have so many people interested in it. We were actually going through the the rankings of running podcasts in Australia on the way here and there's 250 on the rankings. I was like, how is there that many podcasts about running? Like, I mean, they're not. Just we thought 1 was so. Many, yeah, it is debatable whether it's running sometimes we were, we were chatting early. We were asking us how it came about it. Probably. It probably would have been a political podcast, if we. Did our Yeah, we've had to philtre some of the early chat, yeah.

\[01:08:17\] But we decided running might be a bit cleaner. Yeah, yeah, it's a good front for it anyway. Yeah, No, I just think it's it's awesome. It's so good to see so many people out there like my work is in promoting health and well being. So obviously I think it's fantastic to see people out there getting healthy and hopefully preventing themselves developing some horrible chronic disease later in life and being a burden on the healthcare system. But I think, you know, everything that has an upside has a downside as well, right? And we can see that with the just the cost of a lot of the racing has gone up.

\[01:08:49\] And yeah, there's always the risk aversion. You know, there's a whole insurance thing with races where it's becoming a bit more like that nanny state. They're really putting very strong guidelines around what runners can and can't do and almost taking that the element of the unknown, which is what we love about trail running. It's almost getting filtered out in some instances becoming very kind of, we just do this very runnable gravel Rd. We don't do technical terrain. We don't, you know, go to carry

\[01:09:19\] all these 300 things just in case. And you know, I, I see, I don't like that aspect, but that's what makes it accessible for more people. So I don't know, it's hard to say. Would you? Would you, with all that said, at the last what you were talking about at the last bit, would you? If there's the option to do like a fully just self driven major adventure like an ultra but just off the books where you're completely accountable for yourself, would you be in? Yeah, I'd love to do something

\[01:09:49\] like that. Well, sure, Yeah, I've definitely thought about doing some FKTS. I'd love to have a go at the Larapinta Trail FKT. Fastest known time for those of you not. Oh FA with the running mango, right? Well let me a second. I was about to go watch an FKT. Oh, can you just in the loop around the Larapinta one? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. Probably one of my favourite locations to run. So beautiful. But now that there's the race there, you can actually do a supported FKT attempt during the race, which makes things a lot easier. Yeah. That's on that must be soon.

\[01:10:20\] May in May, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. We've not really had the time to think about sort of adventurous things like that because of work study and and training. But now that I've got a bit more time on my hands, perhaps once Western States is over, something like that could be on the. End of those firefighters in line, yeah. Remember SO. Impact of social influence on firefighters after they've eaten close. Something like that, yeah. But yeah, I just want to say because look as I. Said we could keep. Talking to Holly forever, I want to say to people though, Holly R Ranson on Instagram, this is get

\[01:10:53\] behind. I'll share the link as well. We'll share the link, but Holly R Ranson on Instagram, this is somebody who you recently, you've walked away from full time employment as you pursue this Western states goal ambition. You got Nick, your amazing partner who is supporting you as well. But you guys, we were talking off there about you're making some changes, you're relocating so that you can pursue this Western states thing. And you know, we talked about last episode about these athletes aren't like Maddie Rogers, who chose a commercially sport back sport with heaps of

\[01:11:25\] cash and that this is yes, it's your own personal ambition, but it's tough. It's a grind. What you what you're going through to achieve this? Yeah, it is. And we actually started fundraising at the. End of last year, which is something I never thought I would do. I've not ever been a person that likes to ask for help and it seems it was just something difficult for me to accept, you know, when I was working full time and sort of capable of making an income. But the travel especially, it's just so costly to get to these races.

\[01:11:55\] And I've been actually really overwhelmed with the support that we've got. And it's between that and and Nick working that has allowed me to take these four months before Western states off work, which is just incredible because it's you, you're going out there and competing against people that have been full time athletes for years and years, but you actually need to beat them in order to get some sponsorship. But it's hard to beat them when you're working full time and also studying. So I'm I'm so grateful and also scared about about how this, this little block of training is

\[01:12:27\] going to go. But it's I mean, to get to live something that I've dreamed about for so long is just an amazing feeling. So asf.org dot AU you can find the link to. Holly's fundraising on through her Instagram. If anybody out there in the in the beginning family is in a position to do so, we know what cost of living is. We're certainly not asking you to put yourself in any financial stress for this, but if you are in a position to help out, this is what we love about running.

\[01:12:57\] This is what we love about the people within the podcast. If you are in a position to help out, Holly, we're going to continue to follow your journey. So thank you for making the congratulations and congratulations so far exactly following. Along you're going to be. Helping Liam, by the sounds of it. So I'll come back. To you next week. Keep me accountable. Holly's been very polite. About my, my running so off there, I'm going to get the the harsh, brutal Benita Willis style feedback and then I'll bring it. I'll bring it back to everybody next week. Alright, Holly, Thank you so much, Nick. Thank you as well, Nick.

\[01:13:27\] You're very well behaved in the corner there. We'll see you next week. See you next week.