> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.inthebeginningpodcast.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # EP 19 - RED FLAGS ON CALF SOCKS - URL: https://www.inthebeginningpodcast.com/ep-19-red-flags-on-calf-socks/ - Published: 2025-01-24T06:00:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-20T04:00:26.000Z - Description: Courtney Atkinson and Liam Flanagan on Olympics & 2032, UTA & ultras, trail running — recorded on the Gold Coast. - Author: Courtney Atkinson - Tags: Episodes, Main Feed, Olympics, Ultra Running, Trail Running, #Import 2026-07-28 20:58 *Courtney Atkinson and Liam Flanagan on Olympics & 2032, UTA & ultras, trail running — recorded on the Gold Coast.* ## Listen Listen on [Spotify](https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/inthebeginningpodcast/episodes/EP-19---RED-FLAGS-ON-CALF-SOCKS-e2tskha?ref=inthebeginningpodcast.com) or [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/REPLACE?ref=inthebeginningpodcast.com). ## Full transcript Auto-generated transcript. Timestamps approximate. Hosts: Courtney Atkinson & Liam Flanagan. **Read the full transcript** \[00:00\] In the beginning — how are you Courtney, where are you? More importantly, episode 19, and we are apart once more. Yes, we are. And that's the first thing to note — it never seems to run as smooth when we're apart. Oh mate, I love being in person to do this, it's easier to bounce off each other. But I'm sitting in the middle of Tokyo at the moment in Shibuya, and I finally got out for a run after seven days off, because I've been up in the snow in the north. So this is just a \[00:31\] family trip you're going on? Mate, purely a family holiday. January's generally my time — I always try and take it off once things quieten down a bit. But you know what, the funny thing was coming to Japan this time. Let's go back — I spent a lot of time here in the early 2000s into the mid-2000s. I used to race for New Balance Japan in triathlon, probably a good five years I raced for them. So I used to be \[01:03\] specifically New Zealand, Japan — specifically New Balance Japan. When I was racing in triathlon here, that was when the economy was great, they used to have a lot of World Cups. Those who are triathletes will know them as well — the World Championship Series these days. Japan would host about three of them every year, plenty of local races too. I got to the point where I was racing with this team — we'd fly up on the red-eye from the Gold Coast on a Friday night, arrive on \[01:33\] Saturday, race Sunday morning and then fly back home to the Gold Coast on the Sunday night red-eye. I can't even remember half the places I've been to. The money was pretty good then — the Japanese yen was a lot stronger than it is right now. Which leads me to the second point — I was reading news.com and all of these things before we came over here as a family. First port of call was the snow, and we're up in a place called Zao Onsen, which is known \[02:05\] for the snow monster trees — these big trees completely snowed in. We've got great snow, but I was expecting to literally walk into little Australia in the middle of Japan, because all the news reports have been saying Aussies and Americans and Germans have taken over Japan, tourism's rife. I flew into Osaka, got on a plane to Yamagata, and I hardly saw a Caucasian, mate. So I don't know — what I'm wondering, and this would be interesting, what are your thoughts? \[02:35\] Are you? I'm wondering if it's that old Bali situation, where Aussies just flock to the same places — one particular snow resort, or whatever it is. But I found it really good over here, mate. I reckon it's exactly what you're talking about — as a nation, as a majority, we are not an adventurous people, and it's probably got to do with the fact we grow up on an island where we have no land neighbours, and you do have to — \[03:05\] you could drive for 17 hours and you're still in Australia. I've travelled a lot overseas, and I reckon that as a majority we like to congregate to where we know there are going to be other Aussies. Having said that, there'll be people listening right now who go "shut up, I'm heaps adventurous" — they go to heaps of different spots and suss out the unique spots that only the locals know about. So it sounds like you and the rest of the family are doing just that at the moment. \[03:36\] It's been good though — did you get some snowboarding in? Got some snow, mate. I'm what would you call — snowboarding is our family thing, it's the one thing we can all do as a family. I can get down a mountain on a snowboard, I'm no Scotty James, I'm one of those "all the gear, no idea" guys. Salomon fixes us up with all the gear and I've got no idea how to ride but — you snowboard like I play golf. \[04:08\] Oh, I reckon you play golf better than I snowboard. Still, I like it, we've had a ball, mate. But yeah, here we are — I missed a week of running. How's the body feeling? I went out this morning for an easy 45 minutes and just ran around the streets up near Shinjuku, and I feel like my hamstrings are violin strings at the moment. Yeah, it's the old body \[04:42\] that doesn't do well not running for a week. But anyway, we're back into it. What about yourself, mate? I've just seen you pumping out content from Triple M — all I'm seeing on my Instagram feed, when I'm missing all the running stuff, is Liesl, Liam, Spida just having fun. It's busy, it's been good. We're two weeks in now and yeah, breakfast radio is a lot of fun. \[05:13\] I'm actually really enjoying it. It's going to take some time for us to really hit our straps, but I think everything's pointing in the right direction. The wake-ups have been easy. What time? 3:30, the alarm goes off. It's the going-to-sleep part that's hard — I got into bed last night at 8:30 and according to the Garmin, I fell \[05:43\] asleep at 9:30 — so it took me an hour to actually fall asleep. I was just tossing and turning. Is that just because it's all new, a new job, new show, ideas going in your head? I don't reckon I've consistently gone to bed before 10:00 for the last — for my life, honestly. I'm not an early-to-bed kind of person. They reckon it takes 21 days to change a behaviour or something like that, but it's going to take me time to consistently fall asleep \[06:18\] earlier. I'll get there. But the other part of it, what you said just then, is that I have trouble switching my brain off from thinking. Because the show's brand new I've got a lot to think about, and it's such a snowball effect — once it starts going, it's so hard to stop. Do you have a way that you manage to switch off at night? I've got one — no wait, I \[06:49\] found it — I actually forgot about it last night, and then when I finally did it, I did manage to get off to sleep. It's box breathing, and the Garmin watch does this for me, you can actually set it up. I didn't use the watch last night to do it, but it's box breathing, and anybody that's done breathwork will know about this — it's in for four, so you inhale consistently for the full four seconds. Then you hold the breath for four seconds, counting that in your head, \[07:21\] exhale for four seconds, and then hold — don't take a breath in for another four seconds. So the idea is it's box breathing: in for four, hold for four, exhale for four, hold for four, then inhale. And if you do three rounds of that — I don't know exactly what it does to you from a biological perspective, but it does help quieten my brain when I can't switch off. He's going to shut up — I was going to say, you did \[07:53\] sound like you were starting to sound very health-and-fitness there. I know, I know, I don't understand what it does, but all I know is it makes my brain shut up and helps me get to sleep. Exactly — just for the other side of the audience, I'm the complete opposite. I do exactly what everyone tells you not to do — if I put a bit of Netflix on or a TV show on the laptop and watch it, I'll be out in about five minutes, no overthinking anything. \[08:26\] I just put the TV on and I'm out like lights. All that blue-light nonsense — I live by going to sleep watching something. I've never used them, but remember everyone buying the blue-light glasses? Just — nah. One of the all-time great scams, well done whoever made it, whoever made a fortune off those. Well done. Blue screens have only ever worked for me \[08:57\] to get me to sleep. Hey, let's talk some running — let's get stuck into it. By the way, I'll talk to you a bit later on when we talk about our running weeks, but I'm back up in the trails and I'm feeling good, I'll talk to you about that. Let's take some running. OK, so the most popular running reel — the thing that kept coming to me this week on our socials — was this reel from Sam Cornforth. Sam Cornforth. SA— Sam Cornforth. \[09:31\] Yep, I always love how you can just fix my pronunciations, Liam — this is perfect, this is why we work together so well. So, look, I haven't got the audio, and it wasn't great audio — you've got to go watch it, we'll put it in the show notes — but it's literally comparing a runner in 2000 to 2024 and what the differences are. It's literally two guys taking the piss, and it finishes with, you know, they were playing video games on split screen, now they're playing video games online together. \[10:01\] But the running side of it is they're filming themselves running, he's got all the gear, he's doing his massages — just literally being a run influencer. Yeah, and if you think back on it, if you've been running for longer than four years — when you used to go for a run, you did just, hey, I'm going for a run, and that was it. And now this industry has become such that if you're not filming yourself while running, or if you \[10:32\] haven't got a race belt with gels and goos and all the rest of it, and if you're not wearing your socks pulled up above your ankle — it's become so complicated, just go for a run. And the video finishes with him realising he hasn't put Strava on, so he finishes the run and he can't put it up. We love that. So where I'm going with this one is it actually then got me onto another \[11:04\] idea, around what's coming in running this year — everything coming quick with trends, where's running going. We'll talk about Nike in a minute and their realignment in the market at the moment. This is from Runner's World and their 2025 running trend forecast, and I thought it was a good talking point for us to discuss what's coming, or what you think's coming. So I'm going to throw these to you, Liam, and you tell me what you think. \[11:34\] So the first one is running is going to move even more mainstream than it currently is — running shoes, clothes and everything else will shift into mainstream culture, and the hyper running brands and products will go even further. I liken this to what was happening with surfing in the eighties and nineties. I don't think it's a bold prediction because it's already happening — you run for \[12:04\] Salomon, and we've already talked about this — I reckon two years ago we'd finished a run up in Nerang and you were telling me about an activation or competition you were running internally with Red Bull where you work. One of the prizes on offer was a pair of Salomon trainers, like trail shoes essentially, and all the young girls in your office wanted the Salomon trail shoes, and you were going, what, \[12:34\] what's going on, what have I missed here, that all of a sudden these young girls want these shoes I run in on the weekends? So it's already happening — that trend of runners, not just cool clothes, but traditional runners hitting the mainstream. A hundred percent, it was girls and guys, mate, it was all the young crew, and I kind of went to myself, hey, I was ten years ahead of this trend. That's \[13:05\] it only makes sense that for now, for brands like Salomon and New Balance — New Balance have always been in that street space — it now makes sense that it'll just continue, because those early adopters like yourself set the coolness, and then the slow adopters like people like me will catch up. So there's still money to be made by these brands by really leaning into \[13:36\] this running trend even more. This all builds towards what's happening with Nike at the moment — let's keep moving, but they've actually backflipped. The second one is retro revival, and again this isn't new, but what they're thinking may happen is the retro nature of street shoes could actually come into the running shoe. So the look of the running shoe, the colour of the running shoe — can they actually have that \[14:07\] street style but bring it into the Alphafly 3? Can they bring it into the top-of-the-range shoe, so you look like you're literally running in a pair of 1980 shoes but they've got the tech of the 2025 shoes? What's old is new again — you think about the famous Oregon runner, Prefontaine, they've made a couple of movies about him. Yep. You only have to look at the faces of young blokes around this country \[14:37\] right now — the moustache is back in. Courtney, I was about to say, where's your moustache gone? Well, I've shaved it off, I'm trying to buck the trend. The moustache is back in a big way, which means the style era of the moustache — back in the early eighties, nineties — is naturally going to come back too. It does make sense. You showed me a pair of Newtons you had, still in the cupboard, as we were leaving after recording last week's episode. And you're blown away — those will come back \[15:08\] in. It's funny, I do want to say — is it Sally Tonica, I think I'm saying the surname correctly — she left a comment after last week's episode saying her PB is in Newtons and she misses running like she could back then. So there'll be that nostalgic feel for people, and of course brands are going to lean into it, everyone loves nostalgia. I might whip out those Newtons and wear them into the office when I get \[15:40\] back, see how we go. All right, so the next one — this one's probably the one I like the most — can running become a spectator sport? Marathon running events, cultural fashion destinations, you know. So this is probably more about — not turning up to run, but are the influencers, the public figures, is running going to become an event like the Australian Open, where we're seeing a whole range of companies — I think \[16:11\] it's — did one of the companies buy in? Oh, Polo — at the moment they've been doing a heap of stuff down there. Are we going to see this in running events, the big brands coming in like horse racing? Never say never — I've got some reservations, but good marketing teams can make anything popular. Red Bull markets events better than almost anybody, and some of the sportswear brands are the \[16:42\] best in the world at this — making things cool. And if something's cool, people will turn up as a spectator sport. The difficulty with running is a similar problem to F1 — from a pure spectating standpoint, it's boring. Long-distance running is boring to watch, right? It's a bit like the Tour de France, in that if you watch a bunch of cyclists go \[17:13\] past you, that's it, you don't see them again — unless you're racing yourself and know the course. And yet the Tour de France is cool. So maybe it's not so much about looking at the Australian Open as a model, more about looking at the Tour de France as a model, because people aren't going to get excited standing on the side to watch elite runners go past for a split second and that's the end of their experience. I'm sure the brands will figure it out. This one \[17:43\] I'll be interested to see how they do it. I like the way you're going with the cycling comparison, because with a marathon course they have a parade — arguably a big parade that comes through before the lead runners, so there's entertainment. All the sponsors get in there with their different cars, trucks, showing off their wares, and it's all happening. So maybe that's the way we'll go, but let's see, let's see if that rings true for '25\. Look, this is happening at the moment — subculture crossovers and collaborations at the same time. \[18:14\] So are we going to see — what I'm interested in is where the breaking point for all this is. This has been happening pretty much since Covid, or pre-Covid — Covid accelerated it. Is there going to be a point, like a US election, where suddenly the tide turns? When is that point in running? Because everything changes, everything cycles, and the one thing for sure is, just like other sports, running \[18:44\] will have its stay and then we'll cycle. When is that point? Absolutely, and by definition tides turn, as you say. So running is still very much — I don't think it's peaked, I actually think it's still in the upswing phase. There are some people probably resistant to running who think it's having its absolute peak right now — I still think it's got incredible room to grow. But what's the jumping-the-shark moment, what's \[19:14\] the step too far? What's that brand association where — is it, if Bunnings hosts a marathon in one of their stores, is that the point where running has become too naff? Is it a certain person getting on board — if the Kardashians start advocating running, is that the moment where the bubble bursts for us? I don't know what it is. I think there's some run influencers out there trying their hardest to \[19:45\] burst the bloody bubble of the sport, because I don't like what some of them are doing. But I think the bubble's a long way from bursting as a whole. At the same time, I'm really excited to see what culture and subculture collaborations happen with running this year, it's exciting. We've talked about music runs, we've talked about run clubs doing stuff with breweries and all the rest of it, and that's great — I'm fascinated to see what comes next. I mean, the culture \[20:16\] side of it — running's existed for hundreds, well, thousands of years since the dawn of time, and it's not going anywhere. I'm in the middle of Tokyo at the moment, and one of the highest populations that get out and run — like when they run marathons, sold out — the highest population doing that at the Ekiden relays, running in school. When I've spent time here before, it's compulsory at a young age in schools, they take them running every morning, it's part of their culture. \[20:48\] Run up in the park, you know, okay, up here, up the street, and you're going to find runners running around the park. And what got me this morning was a guy — he must have been about a hundred, and he was bent over, frail-looking. He would have been walking, but mate, he was still picking up his feet. I was watching him and he was still — that notion of still being able to run, just picking up his feet — and I walk-ran past smiling, going, yeah, that's that's what you \[21:20\] want to be doing. The Tokyo Marathon for mine is a bucket-list one. A friend of mine from the Runners in the Dark group down in Sydney — she and her partner Ben are locked in for the Tokyo Marathon this year. I was talking to her partner Ben, who was saying that's their absolute household focus at the moment — everything, their days, their training, is mapped around her getting to run the \[21:50\] Tokyo Marathon. So yeah, Japan's got an amazing running culture. I think the idea of collaborations around running is the last thing on their list of Runner's World predictions for the year — that's the other thing that might pop the bubble, if we see the wrong brand collab. The wrong brand — yeah, that's the other one. Well, rolling into that, I mentioned Nike earlier on. \[22:20\] So the new CEO of Nike — this is going back a few weeks now — it's no secret Nike have had a massive decline on the stock market, about a 29% decrease in value this year. The new CEO has come out and announced their new brand strategy — they're getting back to their roots and focusing on sport. So when we're talking about all this collaboration and subcultures, Nike's been at the forefront of this, right? They do it so well. \[22:50\] And now, one of the biggest — if not the biggest — sporting brands on the globe has turned around and said we're going back to focus on sport. What I did see pop up was cycling — Nike teams up with FDJ, their first female pro cycling team partnership. That's an interesting one. So they've gone, we're going to go back and focus on sport, we're a running brand, we sell shoes, and one of the things they're doing right now \[23:21\] from '25 on is jumping back into cycling. If you remember Lance Armstrong — that's the last time I can remember Nike really being associated with cycling. So a massive Nike athlete in cycling, really — they never, you could buy Nike cycling shoes, but back when I was around triathlon, they never really caught on that much. But here we go, Nike back in cycling, and they're openly saying we've got lost a little \[23:53\] bit in our ways, we're losing share, and we're going back to focus on sports. So hopefully that's good news for athletes. Do you know what's interesting about Nike — I don't know how much you know about it, someone out there who knows more can probably correct me on any mistakes here — but interestingly, Nike used to make golf clubs, right? There's probably some people out there still swinging Nike golf clubs. They basically abandoned it, and this might have been under the old CEO or the old strategy, because it wasn't their sweet spot. \[24:27\] It wasn't their — pardon the pun — strength, the technology of making clubs. Pure golf brands like TaylorMade, Callaway, Ping and the rest were much better. I think it was Rory McIlroy who used to use Nike clubs, and basically performance kind of went — Tiger was Nike, wasn't he? Tiger's Nike, I don't know if he ever used Nike clubs specifically — we're talking club-specific here. Exactly. And famously, \[24:58\] they dominate from a Nike clothing and apparel side. I wonder whether with this renewed focus on sport they might reopen the golf club wing of the factory and see if they get back into that. Anyway, wait and see, watch this space. Yeah, because that's really interesting to me — hopefully that's good news for athletes, and some of that investment goes back into the sports the equipment is actually used for in the first place. \[25:29\] Yeah, exactly. Hey, we've got some loose ends to tie up. Last episode we were inundated with messages about nasal breathing. I don't know if I want to talk about it, to be honest — I've got to have some time to sift through it, and then maybe next episode we can come back to it. One thing I do need to own — we talk about being transparent on this show — last week I was talking about when I go through a service station, we're talking \[26:01\] about electrolytes, and I said I buy Maximus over Powerade because there was more sodium in Maximus than in Gatorade or Powerade. Now I was — not corrected exactly — but I was watching a reel from someone I trust on how they talk about electrolytes, and no, Gatorade and Powerade actually have more sodium than \[26:34\] Maximus. So I don't know how the hell Maximus tastes like it's got more sodium in it. But this is one of those things — when they were also talking about Maximus versus Gatorade and Powerade, they were talking about how concentrated they were, having that ideal concentration of around 6% or under to absorb into the bloodstream correctly. Maximus was a little bit over, Powerade was slightly over, and Gatorade \[27:04\] actually sat just under 6%. So when you're exercising, after or before, that idea of having the perfect mix goes out the door. I'm going to come back and say I go with my gut, I go with my wallet, and when I walk into the service station I'm still going to buy whichever is the best bang for buck. You do you, exactly right. Hey, bang for buck, whether it's electrolytes or shoes at Rebel, do what you need to do — and just quickly, \[27:37\] I'm glad, this is what we're about — hands-up accountability when we get stuff wrong. I was wrong and I'm owning it. But can we go back to the nasal breathing for a moment — I know you're going to wade through more of the comments, I just want to share two things quickly. Flo sent us a message on Spotify and said, another great episode guys, in regards to nasal breathing, check out Oxygen Advantage. Oxygen Advantage uses dynamic breath-hold exercises to enhance sports performance and simulate altitude training. \[28:07\] So I'm going to look into Oxygen Advantage, but — okay. I had this conversation about nasal breathing with Eddie Gordon, friend of the pod, runs good, former triathlete like yourself, still a very good runner these days. I was talking to him about this in run group last week, and we were talking about nasal strips. Have you ever used nasal strips? Haven't done that one, mate — I look at them and go, \[28:40\] interesting. We could say that. I was talking about nasal strips with one of the other blokes in the run group, because there are some elite runners, some great runners, who swear by them. He referred to a conversation he'd had with a doctor — and I'm going to use an analogy here — the doctor basically said, yeah, that's great, it might open up your nose for more breathing, but if your nose is taking in more breath, it just means your mouth isn't taking in as much, right? \[29:12\] Because ultimately your lungs are only as big as your lungs are. So the analogy — and stay with me on this, everybody, trust me it'll work in the end — is your toilet system. If your toilet system is a six-litre system, when you press the small flush, after you've just done a number one, it sends down three litres. \[29:47\] When you press the big flush, it sends down all six litres. Your toilet system can only send down six litres. Now, if your lungs, let's say, are capable of holding six litres of air, and you're taking in maybe four litres through your mouth and two litres through your nose, your lungs are still only taking in six litres. If you put a nasal strip on, suddenly your nose is capable of \[30:18\] taking in four litres — it's not that your mouth's still taking in four litres too, your lungs can't take in eight litres, they can only take in six. So four litres might be going in through your nose, but it means your mouth's only taking in two. I'm with you here, Liam, I get where you're going, and that's common sense to me, but I'm sure you're going to piss off a lot of nasal breathers with that. What I'm saying is your lungs are a toilet and there's only so much room. Yeah, I like that, that makes a hundred percent \[30:52\] sense to me. So we'll — I'm sure this topic's — this is one I didn't expect to come back with so much information. And every time I read a new comment on nasal breathing — I've been running for, I don't know, thirty years, and I've never once thought about it. I'm sure at some point some coach said to me, breathe in through your mouth, breathe out through your nose, or something, but I've never really overthought it too much, and it comes back to that notion of overthinking running. One \[31:22\] breathing exercise that's been said to me over time is more about keeping your breathing in control on steps — breathing on every four steps, breathe in, then breathe out, using your steps as a rhythm-based breathing exercise. But anyway, let's — maybe one day in the future we get someone in who knows what they're talking about on this. So what else have we got? Oh, so off the back — another one I was just \[31:52\] getting flogged with, so I'm not going to mention everyone's name who sent this to me — off the back of episode 18, the carbon-plated running sandal. Yep, and the guy ran a 2:18 marathon in them. We got inundated with that — if you haven't listened to that episode yet, go to episode 18 to hear about it. But then Matt O'Brien actually shared an upgrade on the Birkenstock recovery clog — he shared what Ben \[32:27\] Johnson had posted on Instagram, which is a VKTRY recovery clog with a carbon fibre plate inside. Now if you've heard this, it's absolute bullshit, I'm going to call it right off the bat, because — this is a clog designed, they say, to boost recovery and daily comfort. The VKTRY recovery clog helps athletes recover faster with a softer EVA upper, dual-density footbed cushioning \[32:59\] and everything else, and then it has a carbon fibre plate for stability when you're recovering and walking around. Why do you need a carbon plate for that? This is marketing at its best. Again, we'll put this one in the notes for you to have a look at, but this is getting out of hand, mate. Absolutely out of hand, there's no need for that — that's one where I think we don't want to be pro or anti any products unless we've tried and reviewed them. I haven't tried it, but don't buy it, it's a waste of money. \[33:30\] No, yeah, now I know — why don't we tie up some loose ends from even earlier episodes. Why don't you go first, back to that famous reel where you talked about kilometres versus intensity in your training — you do that one first, because I have to go even further back for mine. We're going back and back, but quickly — Michael Richardson, north Queensland fella, love it when a fellow north Queenslander backs a — I'll call myself a north Queenslander \[34:00\] when I want to, I was born up there. So on that distance-first-versus-intensity debate — he was listening to the Strength Running podcast with Jason Fitzgerald, pretty knowledgeable guy — and he was talking about a similar thing, about running paces and that type of thing. He goes, the things you dial in, you just can't do on race day unless you're thinking about it — every run you do, is your easy run easy enough, how fast are you going in your speed sessions compared to \[34:32\] previous times, but it's more the effort than the exact pace that's going to be relevant. You're trying to get the stimulus of intensity — your body doesn't know a pace or a distance, it knows how hard things are. So that's the line: your body doesn't know a pace or a distance, it knows how hard things are. This comes back to running for intensity, the RPE chart, all of those things — that's \[35:05\] this is backing me up a little bit here, but don't get hung up too much every day on Strava, your paces, your times and everything else — just get the work done, be consistent, and do the intensities you think you need to do. In the end, if you keep doing that, you'll get good results. Consistency over perfection. That would be number one on the commandments of In The Beginning podcast, we'll have that as our mantra, mate. \[35:36\] It's about intensity and consistency. Intensity and consistency — that's In The Beginning podcast, intense and consistent. Hey, I need to go all the way back to episode 4 for a moment, which is probably one of our most downloaded episodes, where we discussed who Australia's best-known runner was. The reason I want to go back is because I mentioned Jess Hull in that episode, who was part of the poll alongside Steve Moneghetti, Nedd Brockman and Brett Robinson. \[36:09\] Was he — yeah, correct. And we talked about Jess Hull's silver at the Olympics in the 1500 metres — I've referred to it as maybe the most under-celebrated Olympic medal we've ever had, because of how amazing her achievement was. I just wanted to give a shout-out — I've been in no way paid for this, but my heart lit up, and I'm late to the party on this, I think it's been in place for over a month — but I got genuinely excited when I saw a paid partnership ad \[36:41\] pop up from Jess Hull with Shokz, the headphone company. Because it said to me that whilst she might not have received the recognition of some of our other female athletes and swimmers, I'm really genuinely happy that a company is partnering with Jess Hull, that she's getting money into her pocket to continue being maybe our best runner right now, \[37:11\] around the track. It just made me really excited that there's a brand partnership in place with Jess. I'm sure she's got other things as well, but it made me happy. Yeah, I agree, that's great — she's doing alright with her run brands and everything else, I'm sure. But it made me happy. Yeah, mate. We've talked about this, we want there to be a happy line where \[37:44\] running's big enough at the moment that everyone — there should be enough for everyone to be eating. And the thing is, we're talking about influencers, but I want to make sure the true athletes, the ones performing at our country's best right now, are not only supported by the brands but by the spectators and the population as well. Nice one, nice one. All right, loose ends tied up — let's talk about running now. You've obviously done sweet bugger-all running because you've been snowboarding and shredding the pow. \[38:17\] But I am back in the trails — we talked about it the other week, the fear of this kunanyi race and a few other trail things coming up has got me back into the trails. I've been up in the border trails a couple of times the last couple of weeks, and I think I spoke about it a couple of weeks ago, the heaviness of that first trail run back, just feeling every gram I'm carrying from — you know, \[38:50\] I ate over Christmas. Yeah, exactly. Now I haven't weighed myself around that time, I don't typically look at how much I weigh, ever really, but I was back up in the trails earlier this week and I feel so much better. I think I've been putting a big focus on leg strength stuff too — squats, goblet squats, all that sort of stuff — and whatever I'm doing is working, because I feel so much better up in the trails at the moment. Up in Currumbin — have you been — \[39:21\] up in the border trails, just putting in, and it's a simple out-and-back thing for me. Not coming from your background of elite-level training, mine is a really simple training idea of out and back, and each time I just go a bit further. The first one of these I did, I went out five K, and when I came back, it took me a little over an hour to do this ten K with about four hundred metres of elevation. The most recent one, I went out six K and came back six K, and I'm just adding, adding to \[39:51\] the Ks, adding to the time, the elevation goes up a little bit — it's a really simple idea, but finding this trail that I'll go, well, this time I'll go out further next time. I'm going to do another run today, in fact, and I'm going to run out seven K, which means it'll be a fourteen K run all up, probably about five hundred metres of elevation over the run. It'll probably take an hour and a half, but it's going good. It's perfect — well, we'll build up, because before kunanyi we'll have to do some — we'll be up the back of Springbrook or something, mate. \[40:23\] I'm still so angry at you about this race, this is genuinely terrifying. The other thing I'm doing, and I know you know about this because it's one of your old surf mates who's the event organiser, is the Burleigh Swim Run event happening on the Australia Day long weekend. Ty Dalka's organising this event down in Burleigh. I'm in, I'm committed, I'm in. What — just refresh me, I know what it is and where it is, but what are the distances? \[40:54\] For those who don't know, it's a four hundred metre ocean swim off Burleigh Beach, and then a four K soft sand run — I think it's a two K course you do twice. This probably isn't something I'd normally sign up for, because I swim like a rock, but the reason I've jumped into it is there's a — I can't remember how they classify it — there's essentially a little kids' race, \[41:24\] a wade race, so they wade four hundred metres and then run four hundred metres. My eight-year-old Quinn, who does Nippers at your old North Burleigh Surf Club, she's in — she'll be doing the wade race, and dad's going to be doing the full four hundred metre swim, four K run. I'm genuinely concerned about coming last. Oh mate, you'll be fine — that event's been running for years, they get a mix of everything, you'll be fine, and they get everyone down there. You'll see — \[41:55\] I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Hauser and those Olympians turn up, and then you'll have everyone from all the surf club crew, the young crew — it's a great day. Because it's so busy that weekend, by that stage you'll be running back through from Burleigh to North Burleigh, and I reckon you'll have a pretty good crowd, people starting their daily barbecues by then, mate. What are you going to wear? What do you wear in a race like that — do you go \[42:28\] Speedos, do you go tights, do you go tri-suit, what's your uniform choice? It's like I'm Goldilocks and the three bears here — if the tri-suit is papa bear, I'm not good enough to be racing in a tri-suit, but at the same time I don't think I'm in good enough nick to be running in Speedos either. So I think I'll be opting for a pair of little shorts or \[43:00\] something along those lines — jammers, I think the swimmers call them. Probably rolling out in a modest pair of jammers. By the way, quick product review — those Salomon running shorts you threw me the other day, I may never run in anything else. They're good, aren't they? What they've done is ruined my other pairs of shorts — I don't want to run in the other ones now because they don't feel like they're — \[43:30\] they're so light, it's beautiful to run in. I'm obviously biased towards Salomon when it comes to most things, but these shorts are just, by far — and look, they're not going to be cheap, they're top of the range. What are they? The Sense Aero — they're the longer shorts, definitely not for you, like I always say. Yeah, no, I'm not even going to say that anymore, I'll get in trouble one \[44:00\] day. But they're a hundred bucks. That's actually pretty decent, I thought they'd be more expensive than that. It is relatively — if you're new to running that's an expense, that's a big outlay for a pair of shorts, but they're worth it. They're delightful. The thing is, no seams — the inner sits like, I suppose the waist, they don't really have a waistband as such — \[44:30\] the inner is your waistband, and the actual short itself just sits on, nearly like a suspension belt, I don't know what it is, but it works. Like I said, I just ordered six or seven of them and wear a pair of black shorts every day, makes it easy. Next time order seven or eight of them. I will. So that's me, my run week — running's going good, feeling good, body's good. Who would have thought strength training and consistency makes you feel good? But it does. So there you go. \[45:01\] What are we up to, the WTF segment, here we go — always a good one. Actually, before I jump in — no, I was going to say, you need another hands-up accountability moment, don't think we're skipping over this on the run sheet. If you're going to call out the big boys of the running world, Courtney, when they reply, we're going to serve it up to the In The Beginning family. Well, I'm not getting called out here — I wasn't talking shit, that's pretty much what's happened, I was telling the truth. So Alex Baker — he won't mind me sharing this DM, I'm \[45:32\] sure — Alex Baker sent me this, he'd obviously heard the conversation I was talking about, that I held the downhill record for a while at UTA 50 or UTA 21, whichever one we'd done, and I'd actually knocked off Ben St Lawrence — obviously ex-10K Australian record holder — and he sent that on to Ben to have a listen and see whether I was talking crap. Ben, he said, had a good laugh and said he'll give \[46:04\] it a listen. He said, "I've never beaten Ben in a race, old lady, I always used to let him cook his legs knowing I'd pass him back on the uphills. He's a good bloke and we're mates." So thanks, Ben. I kind of thought that would have been the case, but I still did beat you on the downhill, so there you go, I wasn't talking crap. Alright, let's talk some WTF events, what have you found? First one, mate — have you ever heard of or watched artistic cycling before? \[46:35\] No, and there's a reason. Because it's artistic cycling — this is a UCI-sanctioned event, the governing body of cycling for everything Olympics and everything, and we'll put the reel in the notes, but it's literally — what were those — it's synchronised swimming for cyclists. I watched the clip you sent through and I was annoyed, annoyed at the UCI for \[47:07\] sanctioning this — it's an actual event people feel they can represent their country in. It's not a sport, stop it. Yeah, well I'm with you on the bikes they're riding, it's not a sport. But have you ever seen flatland BMX riding, where they're on a BMX bike, pretty much like street BMX but on flatland, they do tricks, spins? We'll bring out a reel next week on that — there's actually a Red Bull guy out of France who's world champ at it, \[47:38\] and I see him on reels all the time, doing BMX. I saw this and I'm not sure — hey, if these people doing this artistic cycling can then drop into a bowl or a park and do a flip, I'm on board with that, but I don't reckon they can. So the next one's from Jordan Barter — I think you know Jordan? Yeah, so I'll let you talk about this one. He said, boys, loving the podcast, thought I'd mention a race that might fit this segment, I'll leave it with you from here, \[48:10\] because this is your neck of the woods. Jordan's a ripper, I used to play footy with his cousin Matt — Matt and Jordan both love adventure racing, they were right into it following along when I did Defiance that year, because they love adventure racing, these boys, they grew up around the surf scene. But this is what Jordan sent through — not sure if it's still going, but about 25 years ago he competed in a race that consisted of three different horse tracks, pretty sure it was Rosehill, Warwick Farm, and another one, presumably Randwick, if you're in the Sydney area. \[48:42\] Everyone would start at the same time and do one lap of the first track — so you've got to run a lap of the horse track — and then race to the train station to get to the next horse track and run a lap. So if you went Rosehill to Warwick Farm to Randwick, basically it's a race around the track and then a logistical race of getting the \[49:12\] Sydney trains to the next one. Interesting — this is the sort of race, the sort of events I think we need to see more of. Less synchronised cycling, more racing your mates on trains, I love this. Can you go into any of these Sydney racetracks and run now? I mean, this is 25 years ago, I don't think you could just roll in. Probably not — there is a track in Melbourne, I know some more elite runners run on the \[49:42\] track down there, not sure whether they still do, but I used to see them, might have been Moonee Valley or somewhere. You know what this reminds me of — I'm pretty sure I'll look into it for next week, but I'm pretty sure we've talked about run golf, we've talked about some of the other silly running events they've combined, but I'm pretty sure — cross-country stuff — yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a record of the fastest time it's taken somebody \[50:16\] to go to every train stop in Sydney, utilising the Sydney rail network, visiting every train station. And the guy's a fit dude, because he runs, and all the rest of it, but I'll look into it more, it'll be a headline for next week's WTF segment. All right, you better put that in the notes, mate, because I won't remember that one. Okay, and then finally, our final one — Kate, Liam, help me out here, this one's come from Kate — \[50:47\] Kakavas — yep, she's with the Gold Coast Run Club, I'm hopeless with names, mate, this one's come from KDC — yeah, I'm going to have to start nicknaming everyone. Anyway, before I get into what she sent us about the WTF events, I think I might have mentioned throwing away shoes or equipment on a past episode. Anyway, she's part of the Make the Waves Foundation, which — part of what they \[51:19\] do is a Sierra Leone project, we'll put this in the notes as well, but what she sent me is their foundation around South-East Queensland takes in any old shoes or running equipment, and once they've got enough gear they box it all up and ship it off to people who need it to go and run and help other people. So if you're looking to, instead of just wasting stuff and throwing it away — I've always thought \[51:49\] about where do you recycle your run shoes, what do you do with them — if you're local, this is one thing you might want to look into. Anyway, she sent me a link with a whole range of the weirdest Finnish events — in Finland specifically. I'm going to call out two of them. The first one, and I love this one, is the World Wife Carrying Championship. Oh yeah, have you heard of this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I'm familiar with this one. \[52:19\] Yeah, I love it. So pretty much, it's an old tradition, but it's a 235 metre track with obstacles, and the winner receives their wife's weight in beer. So, the heavier the wife you can choose to do it with — hopefully you've only got one wife — obviously the more beer you get. The other one I found quite interesting was the World Sauna Championship — we've talked a little bit about ice baths and doing \[52:51\] all that up in Finland — who can last the longest in a hot sauna, starting at a temperature of 110 Celsius. What's that in — I'm bad with this stuff — let's just say it's hot, sauna hot, and every 30 seconds they throw more hot rocks on and increase the temperature until someone outlasts everyone else. How would you go in this? I reckon I'd be okay in the sauna, I'd be absolutely hopeless if it \[53:23\] was cold, but one thing I don't mind is a bit of heat, so I'd actually put myself in this one and do alright. I would be the Eric Moussambani of this sauna championship. You're going to have to tell me who that is, mate. You remember Eric the Eel from the Olympics, the swimmer from Equatorial Guinea? I do now. It's all about nicknames — Eric Moussambani, AKA Eric the Eel, that swimmer who jumped in, basically had the heat to himself because the only other bloke false \[53:55\] started. I think he finished the 100 metre freestyle in two minutes and thirty seconds, which is not Olympic standard, but he became the darling of the Olympic Games, embodied the Olympic spirit of effort. I'd be the Eric the Eel of the sauna championships — I don't hate saunas, but I just can't cope with them for an extended period. Well, I'd take the In The Beginning \[54:25\] podcast hit on this one, I'd be more than happy to take that on. All right, let's get into some listener questions, we got some this week. Before we jump into questions — we talked about our most Aussie testimonial ever last week, which was brilliant. This is another one, I suppose similar to a testimonial — we got a listener, Chris, his handle is Chris Explore, all the way from Norway. \[54:59\] I love this one, because we copped a bit of flack about hiking last week, and he said, hi, thanks for your inspiring podcast, first heard your episode on a run and ended up downloading them all on my iPad. Fortunately, because I did a hike up a few weekends ago to a cabin in the mountains, got stuck for two days, and ended up listening to 15 episodes while sitting by the fireplace drinking coffee. I love the reason I love this — \[55:32\] I was like, that is my perfect week — going up into a mountain, getting stuck somewhere on my own, and just being able to sip coffee next to a fireplace for a week. That does sound absolutely delightful. At the moment I don't know if I'd want to sit around and listen to 15 episodes of you and me talking. No, I think — I wouldn't either, but oh, how good, from Chris — thank you, Chris, all the way from Norway, signed up for his first trail race off the back of it, and he's out running mountains now, so how \[56:02\] good's that. This is what it's about — it's not about buying fancy shoes, it's not about signing up to stupid eight-week programs, it's about just getting involved. Well done, Chris, we love to see it. Now, Mr Atkinson, putting your elite athlete hat on, because we got a couple of questions from people we want to throw your way. First one, Benjamin Feriff says, hey legends, love the pod, great listen every week, great topics to think about while running. Question for Courtney — how do you get faster at trail running, like 50K events? \[56:33\] Is it the same as intervals and thresholds on the trails with vertical, or how do you mix it up? And Benny says, shout out to Liam, jogged past on the border trail this evening, looking — should have said good day, Ben. Look, I'll come back to something Ben brought up there because I do want to brainstorm something with you, but let's ask Ben's question first — how do you get better at running trails, as opposed to what we've talked about with intervals, thresholds, long runs and what they can do for you on \[57:03\] the flats — how do you get better at running the trails? Being 50K, the first thing is, like any long-distance event, you've just got to be out there, running mileage is going to be key. But when it comes to running on the trails specifically, being specific to the trails is going to help. If you're doing your intervals and thresholds, the majority of trail races you're going to enter are going to have some type of hills — that's the nature of when the majority of trail races are put on. When it comes to how you \[57:36\] break up the hills and the threshold — I don't do a lot of threshold on the trails because it's so hard to control your heart rate going up and down different surfaces. But what I do is when I'm doing my intervals, I choose to do it more like fartlek and let the terrain actually dictate my pace, which then becomes more specific to a race. I've talked about doing that 17K loop, where I literally run up the hills at that threshold-type pace, that kind of race pace I want to \[58:09\] be at, and then float and relax on the downhills. Now I might run hills anywhere between a 300 metre hill to a one-and-a-half kilometre hill — different variances in steepness — but you get to mix it up as you go. I like to use the terrain to mix it up for me, and that's the beauty of running trails — it doesn't get boring either. Can I just — because I reckon Ben is probably closer to me as a runner than he is to you — and you talk about race pace up \[58:39\] hills, when I'm out on a trail run, if I'm doing that 17K loop, some of those hills I can't run up, that's a hike hill for me, I can't — the idea of trying to hold threshold pace or race pace on that hill, I can't, I have \[59:10\] to walk just getting up it. So is there a case — and this is a perfect example of how Courtney always says, I can't train someone to run a race if I don't understand how to run their pace — but for example, if I'm taking on that 17K loop, and that steep part around the back you know where I'm talking about, how could I try and tackle that differently to improve? Well, you power-hike up it — so going back to that RPE, knowing what type of intensity you're running at, instead of trying to run it at a set pace or trying to keep pace, you want \[59:42\] to feel how hard you're going, and manage that over that distance for each of those hills. If you're running a course, you want to be able to finish the last few hills as strong as you started the first few. That's how you get better over time on the trails — being able to manage that intensity you run up, and know that early on in sessions or in a race you can be feeling really easy, you might actually choose to purely walk to keep your heart rate down, \[01:00:14\] because the one thing's for sure — and this is gospel — in a 50K event, all those longer trail events, at some point it's going to get bloody hard. And at some point, it doesn't matter how easy you go out, how hard you go out, you're going to hit a hill in that race, or that training, where you're going to be hurting. And the more you can understand how your body feels and reacts, and learn what that pacing is without all the gadgets and everything else, the better you're going to be able to manage \[01:00:45\] your pace over that whole race. And that's what training is used for, right — to be able to teach your body and learn from trial and error what works, and as you keep doing that, you get stronger at the same time. The second part of that is intervals — I treat trail intervals the same way as intervals on hills on the road, just pick a distance, pick an intensity, run up and back, recover down, and there you go. I love that, I reckon that's a great answer, Ben, hope you get something out of that, mate. \[01:01:17\] I'll come back to the other thing about you spotting me on the trail — I do want to finish up with a bit of a brainstorm session, Courtney, Sammy Weir, who's a friend, just — wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait up, I want to know — did he spot you on the trail and recognise you from our podcast, or are you already a star on local breakfast? Have you got — let's talk about it, are there banners up, have we got signs up on the Gold Coast yet, do we see your face on the highway? The irony is — I don't know if we're doing any video out of \[01:01:48\] this one today, the irony is right now I've got a face full of makeup, because I've literally been doing promo shoots for the radio show today, which are going to end up on buses and billboards around the joint. So no — okay, question then — we're not going to be able to run with you anywhere then. Before we get to Sam's question — and I do want to get to it — I was thinking, and it's so funny that Ben has messaged in and said he spotted me on the trails, because I was thinking — we're \[01:02:21\] not looking to start making merch, or trying to become just another one of those run-influencer things, but what I'd genuinely love to do — because I love waving and smiling at people on the trails or tracks whenever I'm running and I see them, particularly on the trails, I love to nod, to smile, whatever — I want to have something that indicates, "In The Beginning, you've been listening to the pod." \[01:02:52\] I want something — I don't know what it is, you can't give a thumbs-up because that's too generic, I'd love to come up with — it's essentially like a handshake, but obviously we're not going to stop and shake hands. I want to come up with something, whether it's the tip of the cap, I don't know — maybe someone can give us an idea, because I'm blank at the moment. Maybe it's the old-school hat tip, maybe it's the old-school hat-off, I'm like — \[01:03:25\] holding the brim of the hat — that if you run past somebody on the trails, and it's too hard on the flats or the main areas, but if you run past somebody, and there's not a lot of people around, and you both reciprocate the lift of the cap — what do you call that, the English would have a name for that for sure. Like the old — big, big — yes, I think the phrase, and correct me if there's any old English speakers \[01:03:56\] listening — is you doth your cap. I doth my cap to you. Okay, maybe I'll take that back, I don't know if I want that thing going on. All right, if anyone's got any good ideas, please send them in, because I would genuinely love — we're not creating running programs here, we're not trying to take your money, but I would love to create something so the community can just acknowledge one another in a \[01:04:26\] discreet manner if they bump into each other on the run. One more question before we wrap things up, Courtney — yeah, you've got to get back to some sashimi and sushi on the streets of Tokyo. Sam White, friend of the show, personal friend of mine, getting back into his running, has thrown this one in — a question because we brought it up in an episode about calf compression socks. Sam wants to know what's the deal with them, he actively avoids those people on runs the same way you avoid \[01:04:56\] tourists on Segways, he can't possibly think that it helps, but would love to know — Courtney, do they actually do anything? Oh man, this is a red flag for me, really — yes, in triathlon this was such a big thing, people running in calf socks, and then I've seen it kind of creep in when trails started booming, \[01:05:26\] I've seen it creep into trail a little bit, and it came with the fluoro, it came with everything else. I think it's overkill. There is — for years when I travelled, if I was flying up on the red-eyes here to Japan to race, like I talked about earlier, we would have compression tights on every time we'd fly, or compression socks — it makes sense when you're swelling. Look, I know there's evidence that compression does help with some recovery, it might help with — \[01:05:57\] oscillation in the muscles and a whole range of stuff, but for 99 percent of us, they just look awful, it's as simple as that. Oh, I'm more than happy to take my 1% pain and not wear compression socks. I'm going to show you — this is going to be the end, you're going to show me a picture of yourself, this is how we end today's podcast, because I'm not going to want to talk to you anymore after this. Now, as a mature runner, I do not \[01:06:28\] wear compression socks or compression sleeves or anything, I just do my strength training, I run, I do my recovery, and I look after my calves, because that's what gives me problems when I run high volume. I'm going to show you a photo that's four years old, of when I first started running longer distances. That's what I was wearing. Oh, Liam — Liam in Randwick as \[01:07:01\] well, I can see where it was. So I'm looking at a picture of fluorescent yellow compression socks with fluoro yellow decals on the shoes — I can't see the brand, they're knee-high. I ran the first time I did UTA 50 in those, and I was like, what — it just, it hurts after a while, they're too tight. \[01:07:31\] Did they not have a black pair? We're very different, Courtney. Well, look at me, look at me — you're just — I'll just go win the race on that, and I need a week just to take that in, Liam. So on that note, I'll see you around, safe travels, we'll be back in person next week — enjoy the pod, enjoy running, we'll see you then.